[NFP] Ethiopia First Look

[Pietato]

That's how it works for sure, I think the video made that pretty clear:

View attachment 563044

5 resources highlighted and the city is getting +5 faith from resources. They was even careful to highlight all 3 types of resources (bonus, luxury and strategic), to show that it's any resource. The description says for each copy, not unique copies, so it doesn't matter if it's 5 different resources or 5 of the same.

Cheers bro.

 

[Datian]

I like the design although I feel like something is missing. Maybe you should be able to buy more stuff with all this faith.

The international trade routes isn't so convincing : with a lot of ressources, you'll get what, 3 faith per turn ? Besides, rock-hewn churches are going to take some of your production, you'll compensate with internal trade routes.
It still makes a Great Zimbabwe hub more interesting.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

1. Maya is garbage. Totally not agree. They are just harder to play but very rewarding, unique to play, and decent in science civ.

2. Archeologist vs. GA. When you can instant buy museum and archeologist you faster generate tourism you need for victory. Artifacts with tourism boost from great people (Mary Leakey) are super strong. With Moksha and Jesuit education you can instant buy culture district, amphitheater museum, and archeologist in one turn, and you save many many turns this way. Earlier you generate tourism faster you win. And this is what the Civ game is all about. Race for points.

3. Prioritizing faith. Of course, it is your main engine resource and you need it and in 90% of any cases, you will go for holy districts first. You need it for instant buys. So you will need here as much faith as you can get to spend it for monumentally settlers and workers, great peoples, buying districts and infrastructure from Moksha, Jesuit education and civ UA, and later naturalists and rock bands. And on top of that, you get 15% science and culture for free. Instant buying is always better than producing because it saves you time and helps to produce tourism earlier.

The big question here is: is Ethiopia a better version of Russia?

 

[sonicmyst]

Is there a historical basis for that mechanic about science from faith? I get the culture from faith part but not the science from faith. Just asking.

 

[Datian]

The golden age of Islam is one of many exemples, hence the madrasa and the whole Arabia design.

 

[Kmart_Elvis]

The big question here is: is Ethiopia a better version of Russia?

Two direct comparisons in which I think Ethiopia is better than Russia would be

1) Menelik's ability does what Peter's ability tries to do: Keeping up with science and culture without relying on campuses or squares. Grand Embassy just doesn't have a big enough impact. You don't really feel it in your games. Ethiopia, however , will have no problem generating a ton of faith, and right along with it, free culture and science. I'm not saying you can ignore campuses and squares or anything, but in terms of "free science and culture", it will be more noticeable and relevant.

2.) Oromo is better defense than Cossacks. I like how it replaces Coursers and not Cavalry, so you can get it up and running much earlier. I love Cossacks but hate how they come so late. Oromo get the slightly buffed CS and sight, but most importantly, since Ethiopia is going to settle in hills, they also have +4 CS in hills and no movement penalty. It just looks like it serves the purpose of defense better for me.

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Concerning Menelik II's agenda, I think a lot of people here mistake what the agendas are for.

As far as I understood, agendas aren't here to represent the mentality of the historical leader, but to make it behaves as close as a human player.

For example, with Menelik II, you'd want to settle on hills, and if someone else is settling near you on hills, you'll hate him and want to invade his cities. Menelik II agenda is here to represent it.

Since agendas are often linked to LUA/CUA, and since the LUA is inspired by the historical leader, agendas make sense often. If Menelik II had an agenda against colonizers or something, then his LUA would make sense.

Also; one thing we often overlooked is that "Leader hates people doing X" doesn't mean he doesn't necessarily approve, it's just that, mechanically, it will lower your relations and thus he'll be more incline to attack you. "Leader will hate X" can mean he will punish you or take advantage of the situation (like Chandragupta: he doesn't "hate" neighbors as much as he wants to take advantage of his LUA).

Catherine de Medici doesn't "like" you because you have high intel over other, but she will try to take advantage of your situation if you have low intel and she has high on you.
Gengis doesn't necessarily "dislike" civs with a strong cavalry, it's just that if, mechanically, he hates you because you have a high cavalry, he will attack you and then use his LUA to gain your army.
Harald doesn't "dislike" you personally when you have no navy, it's just that if you don't have a strong navy, a human player will take his chance at plundering your coast, so Harald will do the same.
Qin, Pedro and Pericles doesn't "punish" you for playing well the game as much as they would react as a human player seeing that you snatched his wonder/GP/city-state when he's tailored for that.

Agendas are tricky because they have to make sense mechanically most importantly, and that's why we can't have Menelik II with an agenda against colonizers because no LUA/CUA/UU/UI offers a bonus against people like it. Same for Gran Columbia. John Curtin and Robert the Bruce have an agenda against colonizers, warmongers and imperialists because it triggers their LUA.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Concerning Menelik II's agenda, I think a lot of people here mistake what the agendas are for.

As far as I understood, agendas aren't here to represent the mentality of the historical leader, but to make it behaves as close as a human player.

For example, with Menelik II, you'd want to settle on hills, and if someone else is settling near you on hills, you'll hate him and want to invade his cities. Menelik II agenda is here to represent it.

Since agendas are often linked to LUA/CUA, and since the LUA is inspired by the historical leader, agendas make sense often. If Menelik II had an agenda against colonizers or something, then his LUA would make sense.

Also; one thing we often overlooked is that "Leader hates people doing X" doesn't mean he doesn't necessarily approve, it's just that, mechanically, it will lower your relations and thus he'll be more incline to attack you. "Leader will hate X" can mean he will punish you or take advantage of the situation (like Chandragupta: he doesn't "hate" neighbors as much as he wants to take advantage of his LUA).

Catherine de Medici doesn't "like" you because you have high intel over other, but she will try to take advantage of your situation if you have low intel and she has high on you.
Gengis doesn't necessarily "dislike" civs with a strong cavalry, it's just that if, mechanically, he hates you because you have a high cavalry, he will attack you and then use his LUA to gain your army.
Harald doesn't "dislike" you personally when you have no navy, it's just that if you don't have a strong navy, a human player will take his chance at plundering your coast, so Harald will do the same.
Qin, Pedro and Pericles doesn't "punish" you for playing well the game as much as they would react as a human player seeing that you snatched his wonder/GP/city-state when he's tailored for that.

Agendas are tricky because they have to make sense mechanically most importantly, and that's why we can't have Menelik II with an agenda against colonizers because no LUA/CUA/UU/UI offers a bonus against people like it. Same for Gran Columbia. John Curtin and Robert the Bruce have an agenda against colonizers, warmongers and imperialists because it triggers their LUA.

What about seondeok and Cleopatra?

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

What about seondeok and Cleopatra?

Well, there the flaw in the theory.
Seondeok wanting others to have high output of science is not necessarily historical, I think, otoh. But having her agenda being "I want to make crazy amount of science" tie with her mechanics.
And for Cleopatra... Well, this agenda always bothered me because it should be the standard behavior of any AI/human. I mean, you'll "like" any civ with a bigger army because you won't want to attack them, and you'll "dislike" civs with small armies to try to take advantage of it. Why Cleo has such a specific agenda always bothered me.

 

[Kwami]

Well, there the flaw in the theory.
Seondeok wanting others to have high output of science is not necessarily historical, I think, otoh. But having her agenda being "I want to make crazy amount of science" tie with her mechanics.
And for Cleopatra... Well, this agenda always bothered me because it should be the standard behavior of any AI/human. I mean, you'll "like" any civ with a bigger army because you won't want to attack them, and you'll "dislike" civs with small armies to try to take advantage of it. Why Cleo has such a specific agenda always bothered me.

I've always assumed that Cleo had that agenda for the innuendo that comes with it.

 

[Pfeffersack]

The big question here is: is Ethiopia a better version of Russia?

At least for the AI Ethiopia might be easier to handle when it comes to getting something out of their unique stuff - this pic from T300 is symptomatic what Russia is doing late game with the GPs it got from all the Lavras:

They have 13 cities in this game and only 3(!) of them have a Theatre district at all.

 

[tedhebert]

Thanks all for the various answers on my Archeologist question.

From what I read, there are a few reasons why people like Art museums better that Archeologist museums, but what seems to be clearly be the main factor is the production cost of the Archeologist. More complicated theming is also mentioned, but hammers seems to be what people dislike most.

Very honestly, I kind of agree; to the point where I'll say that in most of my games, I usually have more Gold than what I can intelligently/usefully spend, so I basically mostly all Gold buy them.
With Ethiopia, I'll have the added opportunity to Faith buy them, so that'll be fun.

Still, I think it also probably boils down to what I call 'play personality'. I am a prod and science first, gold (through trade routes) second, THEN culture kind of player. Faith usually comes last (in priority, not chronologically). Of course, I always try and play to the strengths of the civs, and to the reality of the map. But that trends pretty much follows me.

I've long had the feeling that most people in here tend to generate and pay attention to culture WAY ahead of me in their games. So that probably means GA comes to them earlier than me. Since I don't usually start to work on Theatre Squares until after turn 100, I'm probably lagging behind all of you. I do end up usually being also top culture producer in my games, but it comes late.

Anyways, thanks again for the comments. I find it very interesting to get a glimpse into other methods of playing and strategies

 

[Leucarum]

1) Menelik's ability does what Peter's ability tries to do: Keeping up with science and culture without relying on campuses or squares. Grand Embassy just doesn't have a big enough impact. You don't really feel it in your games. Ethiopia, however , will have no problem generating a ton of faith, and right along with it, free culture and science. I'm not saying you can ignore campuses and squares or anything, but in terms of "free science and culture", it will be more noticeable and relevant.

I hadn't thought about it like that but for sure Ethiopia feels like Russia done in the way they originally wanted Russia to feel.

 

[PhilBowles]

Is there a historical basis for that mechanic about science from faith? I get the culture from faith part but not the science from faith. Just asking.

As with any civ abilities, these are a combination of historical flavour and concessions to gameplay so there often isn't a direct link between the flavour being evoked and the associated game mechanics. This is how I understand Ethiopia's abilities in relation to the country's history and geography:

Council of Ministers: Reflects Menelik as a moderniser, both bringing the country up to date technologically and adopting new cultural ideas. The link to faith is essentially mechanical, simply because some game feature is needed to quantify the science/culture boost and a link to faith plays well with Ethiopia's design. If you want to stretch a point I suppose you can imagine it reflecting the popularity of the ministers, in the same way that faith reflects popularity for rock bands, since someone mentioned that many remained in place for Menelik's successors and so were presumably considered capable. The extra combat strength on hills relates to Menelik's resistance to European incursions.

Aksumite Legacy: What it says on the tin. Aksum was noted primarily as a trading empire, especially in ivory. It's not clear why this would be particularly associated with increased faith production, but it was during the Aksum period that Christianity first arrived in Ethiopia (which was among the first countries to adopt it) and plays well with a civ that would be expected to have a faith focus (otherwise its much-demanded churches would be a bit pointless). Archaeologists are just there to reflect the fact that Ethiopia has a very long history as a developed society and Aksum was one of the major empires of the Classical world - it doesn't reflect any particular focus on archaeology in Ethiopian culture.

Oromo Cavalry: A formation notable at the Battle of Adwa but more significantly iconic due to their exposure in the European press of the time, and so a very clear choice for an Ethiopian UU. Not actually coursers but mounted infantry - other than giving unique pikemen a horse model and high movement this is probably the best approximation.

Rock-Hewn Churches: Eleven, probably originally late 12th to early 13th Century, churches built at high elevation near Lalibela. They have no association with volcanoes.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Concerning Menelik II's agenda, I think a lot of people here mistake what the agendas are for.

As far as I understood, agendas aren't here to represent the mentality of the historical leader, but to make it behaves as close as a human player.

For example, with Menelik II, you'd want to settle on hills, and if someone else is settling near you on hills, you'll hate him and want to invade his cities. Menelik II agenda is here to represent it.

Since agendas are often linked to LUA/CUA, and since the LUA is inspired by the historical leader, agendas make sense often. If Menelik II had an agenda against colonizers or something, then his LUA would make sense.

I get this. I think the problem comes from the notion that sometimes we have ideas in our head about how cool it would be if they make him an anti-colonization leader. Then Firaxis comes out of nowhere and makes so many hill bonuses for Ethiopia, so therefore he will get a hill based agenda.

I don't actually have as much as a problem with that than I do Lady Six Sky's agenda for some reason. I understand why they made her Solitary to fit with her tall playstyle, but to me it feels too general and bland and it seems not as stereotypical for a Mayan leader to have. Maybe it's just the name.

Rock-Hewn Churches: Eleven, probably originally late 12th to early 13th Century, churches built at high elevation near Lalibela. They have no association with volcanoes.

The Church of St. George at Lalibela apparently was built out of volcanic rock, which is the inspiration for the in-game graphic.

 

[Zaarin]

I wonder if Rastafarian will be added as an official religion as part of this DLC ?

If anything they should add Oriental Orthodoxy, since that was (is) Ethiopia's religion...

 

[Leucarum]

The one mod I don't like playing without is Tomatekh's religions mod. I wish they'd add more default religions to the base game. Seeing Saladin spreading protestantism or Phillip spreading sikhism breaks my immersion in ways that even giant death robots and vampires don't do for some reason...

 

[fy00sh]

Rock-Hewn Churches: Eleven, probably originally late 12th to early 13th Century, churches built at high elevation near Lalibela. They have no association with volcanoes.

I feel like the biggest reason they made them able to be built on volcanic soil is because otherwise you could be blocked from putting a Rock-Hewn Church next to hills with good hill/mountain adjacency just because a volcano erupted next to it, same as what they did for seaside resorts (hence why seaside resorts can be built on snow and tundra as long as its volcanic soil).

 

[Zaarin]

The one mod I don't like playing without is Tomatekh's religions mod. I wish they'd add more default religions to the base game. Seeing Saladin spreading protestantism or Phillip spreading sikhism breaks my immersion in ways that even giant death robots and vampires don't do for some reason...

I have no problem with civs founding the wrong religion--and Tomatekh's Historical Religions won't solve that if someone else beats Saladin to Sunni or Phillip to Catholicism--but I agree that it's a great mod that I won't play without.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The one mod I don't like playing without is Tomatekh's religions mod. I wish they'd add more default religions to the base game. Seeing Saladin spreading protestantism or Phillip spreading sikhism breaks my immersion in ways that even giant death robots and vampires don't do for some reason...

Do you feel the same way when Saladin chooses pagodas or meeting houses for their worship building too?