Ethiopians?

[methane]

Sorry, I know I have been instigating this debate, but it really annoys me when people deny the influence or impact of "black" African culture. This is a debate that goes back several hundred, if not a couple thousand, years.

But surely you see you're falling for the same trap. Saying that the people there were "black" without evidence for the case (and historians have been looking into this issue for quite awhile) isn't really nobler than saying it was "white". You don't think your argument comes across as denying "brown" Egyptian culture?

I think all humanity has a right to claim all ancient culture as a shared inheritance, but if you must start dividing them up among 'races', please try and be as accurate as possible. Anybody who is inclined to be prejudiced against "black African culture" is likely to find their prejudices justified when they see that a supporter feels the need to make shaky claims to support its point.

 

[Mango]

I've always considered Ancient Egypt to be a mix between Middle-Eastern, Mediterranean and Nubian cultures/races. They sat right at the crossroads between those three.

 

[Bakuel]

@jkp1187

@methane
Let the horrible topic die! Please I beg of you! If you all knew how many bothans died over this topic, you wouldn't be so fast to argue over it!
Ok, ok, I'm shutting up. But I'll always think this topic is one of the ultimate thread derailers on any forum with more then two history buffs.

@Bianezzi
It appears I have been proven wrong then! I guess I agree with cybrxkhan, in the end it’s a game anyhow, a great game for sure, but still a game. Needless details about a couple of skin tones needn’t be discussed…

Back on topic,

With the Ethiopians and Mali in civ4, it seems quite weird that the only sub-Sahara civ they had before this was the Zulu, which, though I don’t mean to speak against the Zulu people, was a strange choice to say the least. (Personally I think they should have called them the Nguni people since the Zulu are just a outcrop of these tribes, the Zulu tribe alone only has less then 300 years of history! While the Nguni would represent practically all the black people around South Africa and has been their since at least 900 AD.) But at least in this installment Africa is not as empty.

Yes to Ethiopia!

 

[bonafide11]

But surely you see you're falling for the same trap. Saying that the people there were "black" without evidence for the case (and historians have been looking into this issue for quite awhile) isn't really nobler than saying it was "white". You don't think your argument comes across as denying "brown" Egyptian culture?

I'm not saying people there were only black and I'm not denying the "brown" Egyptian culture. I'm saying ancient Egypt was connected to "black" Africa and much of its culture is a result of this influence. I realize that Europeans, Asians, and Africans all settled and eventually mixed in Egypt, but to say that Egyptian culture has no connection to "black" African culture is clearly overlooking the relations between ancient Ethiopia and ancient Egypt, which shared the Nile River and shared cultures.

 

[Carver]

Hmm, that's interesting... last time I checked the Bible was a composite work of the Hebrew Old Testament, passed down by Jewish rabbis and leaders in Israel, and the New Testatment, written in Greek by citizens of the Roman Empire. Not to say the Ethiopians don't have copies, too, but seriously, stolen by Europeans?

He/she was probably referring to the Book of Jubilees and the Book of Enoch; both of these books were (knowingly) preserved in their entirety only in Ethiopia. Although, a copy of the Book of Enoch was found among the Dead Sea Scrolls in the 20th Century.

 

[bonafide11]

Ethiopia was often discussed in the bible, but referred to as "Cushites"

 

[dh_epic]

I posted this in another thread... but here's Ethiopia:

Ethiopia:

• the only country in the world to resist European colonization. Eat it, China, India, Japan...
• founded its own Christian church in 330 AD, roughly the same time as Constantine in Rome. Take that, Europe.
• The conquests into Yemen brought Christian thought to Arabia, ultimately inspiring the Prophet Muhammed to create Islam
• One of few Jewish states in antiquity.
• Home of the Ark of the Covernant
• One of their leaders considered the Messiah today by about a million people
• An incredible number of wars with the Ottoman Empire.

Would I put Ethiopia in the top 10? No. Top 20? Maybe. Top 30, almost definitely -- unless you wanted to mince up Germanic, Slavic, or Arabic civilization. And even then, it would be debatable.

 

[Gaius Octavius]

I was reading a speech by Ronald Reagan and I found something interesting...

I think we are for aiding our allies by sharing of our material blessings with those nations which share in our fundamental beliefs, but we are against doling out money government to government, creating bureaucracy, if not socialism, all over the world. We set out to help 19 countries. We are helping 107. We spent $146 billion. With that money, we bought a 2 million-dollar yacht for Haile Selassie. We bought dress suits for Greek undertakers, extra wives for Kenya government officials. We bought a thousand TV sets for a place where they have no electricity. In the last six years, fifty-two are receiving foreign aid from us. No government ever voluntarily reduces itself in size. Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we'll ever see on this earth!

 

[bonafide11]

I was reading a speech by Ronald Reagan and I found something interesting...

Wow Ronald, that was awfully generous of you to help out those in need...

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The color of Egypt doesn't really matter, and would only be a social construct anyway. There is no consensus on how to define what any of these races are anyway. According to the book Guns, Germs, and Steel, Subsaharan Africans fit into 3 races: Red (mostly pygmies from west Africa), Yellow (mostly Khoi-San peoples from east and south Africa), and Black. All other Europeans, all middle easterners, all Asian, all Europeans, all native Americans, all Australians, and all pacific Islanders are considered white. While this seems a little off, especially based on our usual ideas of race, it is apparently closer to our genetic differences. Not that it matters anyway.

Many Egyptians today do consider themselves Arabs. Despite the potential for interbreeding with neighboring peoples, the DNA tests of ancient mummies show no difference between the ancients and modern Egyptians. Ancient art shows about an equal amount of diversity in skin tone them as is present today.

If we instead hold a biblical view of peoples origins instead of modern evolutionary theory, then Egyptians are not Arabs, but Arabs are all of Egyptian descent.

 

[Florian]

the only country in the world to resist European colonization.

It does help when the only European "power" that tries is Italy.

founded its own Christian church in 330 AD, roughly the same time as Constantine in Rome.

Constantine didn't found any Church. He just patronized the one that had already been in place for a few centuries.

 

[Öjevind Lång]

Constantine didn't found any Church. He just patronized the one that had already been in place for a few centuries.

I think the proper word here is "establish" a church, and Ethiopia did that as early as the Romans.

 

[dh_epic]

That's what you get when you recite stuff off the top of your head -- I meant that it was one of the first Christian States after Rome. Obviously the Christian Churches existed before then, but it's pretty significant when a ruler picks it up and makes it official.

 

[Carver]

I was reading a speech by Ronald Reagan and I found something interesting...

This is a good reminder of what an ignorant, underachieving president RR was (and the collapse of the USSR was not his achievment).

 

[MisterBarca]

Sub-Saharan Africa contributed almost nothing to civilization, and one could claim it never contained a genuine civilization. That Ethiopia and the Zulus were added was a simple concession to PC.

 

[Gecko1]

Wow you're ignorant. I guess you pretty much don't like any kinds of music other than classical or polka. European and American culture would be half what it is right now if not for imperialism and slavery.

 

[dh_epic]

Sub-Saharan Africa contributed almost nothing to civilization, and one could claim it never contained a genuine civilization. That Ethiopia and the Zulus were added was a simple concession to PC.

One could claim that... if they never read much non-European history, or were mildly ********.

(That said, I agree the Zulu aren't really a shining example of anything, except for Sid's lack of knowledge of Africa.)

 

[cybrxkhan]

one *could* say they didn't contribute as much to civilization (or, more rather, Western civilization in general) as Rome or Greece, BUT, however, they were important in their own right. they were economic, political, or cultural powers in their regions, and thats good enough to get in as a civ, apparently

 

[bonafide11]

Sub-Saharan Africa contributed almost nothing to civilization, and one could claim it never contained a genuine civilization. That Ethiopia and the Zulus were added was a simple concession to PC.

Wow, you have a lot to learn about history... Just because your history class doesn't talk about Sub-Saharan African history and culture doesn't mean that its history and culture doesn't exist...

 

[Bianezzi]

"Contribution to civilization" is BULLSH1T.

Who contributed more to civilization? What language do we speak today? What alphabet do you use? ARE THESE CIVILIZATIONS ALIVE? How many got killed for you to write in your home computer about Sub-saharan Africa and such?

History is made of vulgar glories and blood. Ethiopia is a genuine civilization with a long history that should have been in this game FOR A LONG TIME.

Period.