[R&F] Ever have a game that seems unwinnable?

[dthompson32]

I generally save my turn 1 positions to allow myself to go back and replay the game when everything goes to hell. I like to try to figure out what strategy would work for the map/situation. I know this gives me a big advantage of know goodie huts and CS positions, but I'm always trying to learn how to play more effectively.

I'm trying to learn the changes in R&F and I saw Wacker's post about his T188 SV using China. I'd never played them much, so I thought I would give them a try.

I ended up with an immortal map that just seems unwinnable, which I've never seen before. Usually, I can figure out a way to succeed.

I was located in an open plain with Gorgo to the west and Alexander to the south, no CSes that I could trigger without going past their territory. In at least 3 of my attempts, I had barbs throwing horse after horse at me. Finally on about the 10th attempt, I managed to get two horse developed and churned out some horse units to go with my archers and warriors. But despite having decimated both of the civ's armies twice, they threw another wave of chariots and archers at me. I was able to hold them off, but sacrificed all attempts at building up science and my income was in the negative.

I finally gave up and rolled up a new map.

I guess my question to those that play more frequently, is this common? Or do I just need to LTP?

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Yes. The last time it happened was the first CIV 4 Warlords Deity GoTM many years ago.

Can't imagine an unwinnable game in Civ 6 though.

 

[stinkubus]

Is there still a thread available to read on that game?

 

[EditorRex]

Sounds like you just need to adapt your game opening strategy for maps with certain conditions that are unfriendly to your current style. What is your opening build order and did you try different things in these multiple attempts on this map? How are you using your first units to explore and fight? What is your research order? I wasn't clear on why it was so hard to take out those horse barbs before they did much damage. Maybe some spear units would be useful? Also, I don't think you said what leader you were playing, the map type and size or the game speed, which all make a difference. It sounded as though you took on Alexander and Gorgo at once? I guess if they declare joint war you don't have any option, but obviously something to avoid if possible.

 

[EditorRex]

Thinking about this more. Have you tried working on the Loyalty of Jerusalem after they conquer it? Could be fun.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yes. The last time it happened was the first CIV 4 Warlords Deity GoTM many years ago.

Can't imagine an unwinnable game in Civ 6 though.

I can't either unless we count something like a recurrent IBT crash bug. Deity AI can't put enough win speed pressure or military unit pressure on players to make a game "unwinnable" otherwise on randomly generated maps.

 

[Victoria]

I had one once, Japan was along the coast from me on deity and a mountain range forced all his warriors straight into me. It is seriously unpleasant that early.
.. only the once

 

[EditorRex]

I had forgotten about this earlier, but I had an Emperor game in an early version of Vanilla that may have been unwinnable. It came after they nerfed the Settler sales for gold and some of the early cavalry rush stuff, but before some other updates that tweaked the game quite a bit. On a standard continents map, I spawned, I think as Trajan, on a tall but narrow island with a lot of tundra and one CS. A nearby continent had coastal mountains facing me but 3 or 4 inland AI civs that had built no coastal cities. Perhaps there was some strategy that might have worked if I'd followed it from the beginning, but without knowing what the map looked like and assuming I was on narrow piece of a big landmass, I proceeded as I might normally. By the time I realized the unusual geography, I was committed to a Domination strategy that had little chance of success while I lagged increasingly behind in tech. I still took out a couple of nearby capitals before seeing a couple of contenders further away were hopelessly ahead of me in tech an personnel. It's an interesting case of a game where with the current Dark Ages, I might have had a better shot at a comeback than in that Vanilla game. I think one of the things that was fixed after I played that game was how the map spawns. I haven't seen coasts completely covered with mountains since then and I haven't had such an isolated start.

 

[RealHuhn]

Not sure if it was unwinnable but I had a Deity start where Ghengis Khan attacked me with a mix of archers and warriors right after he got a trade route to me and adopted Oligarchy. His warriors had like +14 combat strength. Had to rage quit ^^

 

[EditorRex]

This is a different question than the thread originally asked, but I'm curious about the experience of top players who were accustomed to winning most of their Deity starts on Vanilla. Are you guys finding things much different on R&F, with more frequent games that are either unwinnable or that you at least are unsuccessful at winning?

 

[Civ_Gumby]

This is a different question than the thread originally asked, but I'm curious about the experience of top players who were accustomed to winning most of their Deity starts on Vanilla. Are you guys finding things much different on R&F, with more frequent games that are either unwinnable or that you at least are unsuccessful at winning?

Not a top player by any means but I play on deity. I find that I can build an encampment, chop out 6-7 horses with magnus and demolish the civ beside me, the AI is so terrible at combat that its easy to keep all of your units alive. It is twice as easy to build your army this way and really once you have killed that first civ the game is a cakewalk. I think its much easier to pull this off now than it was before r&f, loyalty can be hard to deal with sometimes but if you are moving governors you shouldn't have a problem.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

This is a different question than the thread originally asked, but I'm curious about the experience of top players who were accustomed to winning most of their Deity starts on Vanilla. Are you guys finding things much different on R&F, with more frequent games that are either unwinnable or that you at least are unsuccessful at winning?

No need to play it to know it isn't notably more difficult than vanilla.

If there's ever a difficult level in Civ VI, the very discourse here on the forum would change.

 

[Builderphile]

I play on Diety, win pretty much every game, and was previously of the opinion that no game was unwinnable.

I recently played an R&F game as the Dutch that changed this opinion. Gilgamesh's capital was 8 hexes away and he had nowhere to expand but towards me (his capital on a peninsula).

He came at me with 2 war carts and 4 warriors. I lost the game (lost my capital, I did not rage quit) by turn 22 (on quick speed settings). I do not see how it could be avoided.

(On second thought, I suppose I could have just taken my warrior and original settler and gone for a long trek away from Gilgamesh actually, but that would have been risky and difficult to overcome)

 

[dthompson32]

I wish I kept the original save game, I would go back to it with some of the suggestions from here. Plus I have more experience with R&F now, so would probably do better with the opening.

So I'm willing to admit that it probably wasn't unwinnable, just hard for my level of skill.

 

[Eliminator_Sr]

I've definitely had some games where I was rushed right away and lost but I wouldn't say those games were unwinnable. I generally don't replay games but it might be fun to try one out if someone posted a save file.

 

[Esperr]

One thing thats been true in every civ game is you can always kill your way out of a box. If you get samdwiched like that just go full on warpath. You can always catch back up in science later. Idk when deity A.i launches space ships but its past turn 280 at least.

 

[civtrader6]

Happened to me recently on Deity.
Met Teddy on T3, Chandragupta on T11. Turn 12 Teddy declares war and initially attacks with 4 warriors and a slinger.
My original build order was Scout into Builder, but because the warrior was on the other side of the map - Teddy got my capital at T16.
So I thought maybe if I make some early units I could defend against the attack. I try the scout - warrior - slinger order and it worked well in keeping Teddy off but then on Turn 18 Chandragupta declares on me and I'm again defeated.
So I try again - this time going straight into military units. In the next couple of attempts I've experimented with various build combinations of warriors and slingers - using it as an opportunity to practice early defense. Sadly - the longest I've managed to last is Turn 25 as both Teddy and Chandragupta just kept replenishing their army.
So yeah, after a year with this game, I've finally gotten what seems to be an unwinnable start.

 

[DanQuayle]

Happened to me recently on Deity.
Met Teddy on T3, Chandragupta on T11. Turn 12 Teddy declares war and initially attacks with 4 warriors and a slinger.
My original build order was Scout into Builder, but because the warrior was on the other side of the map - Teddy got my capital at T16.
So I thought maybe if I make some early units I could defend against the attack. I try the scout - warrior - slinger order and it worked well in keeping Teddy off but then on Turn 18 Chandragupta declares on me and I'm again defeated.
So I try again - this time going straight into military units. In the next couple of attempts I've experimented with various build combinations of warriors and slingers - using it as an opportunity to practice early defense. Sadly - the longest I've managed to last is Turn 25 as both Teddy and Chandragupta just kept replenishing their army.
So yeah, after a year with this game, I've finally gotten what seems to be an unwinnable start.

Please post the Turn 0 save. I want to try it.

 

[Boyan_Sun]

After the new update, it seems that AIs are more likely to rush player very early. If you are close enough to an AI, you have a big chance of losing a deity game without save/load.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Is there still a thread available to read on that game?

I don't know if its threads are preserved, and I only found about it long after submissions were due, so there won't be any comments of mine anyway. I have recovered this link from a PM to Snaaty, another of the greatest CIV players, but he wasn't able to win either.

Things worth reading are my posts in the early/final spoiler threads of BotM 10, a famous game when I brought what the strategy subforum had been developing for years to Game of the Month for a decisive domination victory. Mind you, Beyond the Sword Deity was considerably easier than Warlords Deity (still way harder than Civ5/6 and still mostly losses of course). Then there's WotM 23, a Warlords Immortal game with the option for a challenging start on Deity, which I won for what was the first Warlords (and possibly vanilla) Deity victory in CIV's GotM. Ironically, that finest victory required way more skill than BotM 10, which was mostly lost to memory because the GotM entry was rated as Immortal. I know eventually Rusten went to win a WotM game in a Deity entry, however by that time I was retired and I can't cite the #.

As for Civ 6, the first Deity entry happened almost immediately (6otM 4) and, despite the short time to learn the game, it featured a slew of winning submissions (over 50%?). Not something that can pique the interest of the likes of me, Snaaty, or Rusten.