Every city does not need every building?

[sylvanllewelyn]

We're talking about 3 different problems here:
- how to apply specialization of cities when choosing city sites
- when to build infrastructure and when to build units
- where should I build infrastructure

I just realised, from recalling my personal experience, that this argument is atrociously complicated. This is because all of us forgot the idea that you need to have the hammers in the city to build that building in the first place. It's no good finding the perfect spot for a Wall Street and Oxford university if it produces 5 hammers a turn, and national wonders simply won't happen from buying, since the penalty is far too great.

We're talking about two types of specialization here:
- choosing the city site, and/or deciding whether the conquered city is worth keeping or not
- building infrastructure in cities

It is to my firm belief that all cities need a reasonable amount of hammers before replaceable parts (lumbermills, as I'll chop them all forests way before) or democracy. It is also to my firm belief that building workshops on floodplains is NOT an option, as 1 hammer is hardly worth it anyway. In fact, great library and national epic often goes to a production city for the early benefits, rather than waiting for the greater benefits of building it in a GP farm later.

Therefore, my real advice is: don't worry too much about city specialization. Build a building if it has reasonable benefits, don't wait for the best city for that building, because that "best" city might never have the hammers to finish off that granary anyway. Otherwise, just build (yet another) military unit.

 

[kakitadairu]

How many super cities do you need to win the game? Of course it depends on the victory condition you are going for. For diplomacy, you only need 1. Culture, you need 2-3. Space, 3-4.

With a specialized, maximized tech capital and a GP farm, you can easily get to the end of the tech tree. Your capital will provide you with 50%-70% of your total beaker output.

If you try to build infrastructure in all of your cities instead of building Wealth/ running Merchant specialists, you'll slow down your research rate a lot, instead of speeding it up.

Unhealthiness doesn't slow down your city's production much. -1 bread for each green face is a wrist slap.

There are several ways of increasing happiness. You should build temples anyway for Cathedrals. Investing in good diplomatic relationships to have someone to trade happiness resources with is a no- brainer compared to building colosseums/ markets. Both Hereditary Rule and Representation solve happiness issues. Of course, if your citizens start to get *too* happy, show them the whip

Your border cities are eternally at culture war with your neighbors' border cities. As soon as they've contributed their temples/ courthouses/ universities/ theaters they should be maxed up on artist specialists and be building culture. Culture earlier is better than culture later.

It's a conundrum: In order to be teching so fast that you always have infrastructure you could be producing but you don't in order to be teching so fast. You do it this way so that you can get that infrastructure up in your capital/ key cities earlier. That market/ grocer/ observatory you aren't building in your support city is 4-5 turns earlier you are building Oxford/ Observatory/ Levee in your key cities, not to mention Statue of Liberty, Eiffel Tower, Sistine Chapel, Taj Mahal, etc...

Cheers,

Dai

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

the point is that 20 pop powerhouse cities can usually make use of most buildings because theyll have decent production even if its a cottage city(universal suffrage and levee since i would usually plant such cities at a river) so ill want a rax and hammer boosting buildings, ill want libraries etc to boost the massive cash into science, i want commerce buildings because they usually add happiness and health since its a high pop city and of course, its already a commerce city to begin with. now all of a sudden ive included pretty much every building there is? Of course theres the point that the city will not become very high hammer wise until US and levee's but even so building all the other buildings would make me want to build the production boosting buildings first to speed it all up!

So I'd drop two points in here.

First, do you really need all of those buildings as quickly as you are getting them? It's awfully tempting to "I'll just work the mines for a little while to get things started" and suddenly your city is caught up on its infrastructure but not generating nearly as much commerce as you had hoped because you are some 50 turns behind on your cottages.

Second, given the enormous stack of buildings you hope to construct, what is the barracks for? Turning on a bunch of production so that you can construct buildings more quickly, only to then turn around and start constructing units, seems a bit counter productive.

Lets try counting hammers. Suppose that we estimate that a barracks makes your units 25% better. A barracks is a 50 build. Given that, you need to produce 200 hammers worth of units to earn back the investment (assuming no interest). That's what, a library, a market, and some change?

 

[axident]

Specialize. It will do you good. Opportunity cost is key here, as many other players have said.

In my current Emperor game, my strat was to REX, spy, wonderspam, and early rush. IIRC, I had 4 high-production cities and 3 low-production commerce cities at my disposal before my first war started a bit earlier than I wanted (Ragnar DoW).

Capital and Hi-Prod city 1 = wonderspam. Hard to redesignate them as military cities even in wartime, as they needed every hammer they could get to cope with the workload I was giving them.

Hi-Prod cities 2 and 3 = unitspam.

3 commerce cities = whipped a couple of emergency spearmen, which don't really need the +3 xp from barracks to be effective in countering most early mounted units, which is all they SHOULD be doing anyway, as they suck against everything else. Though medical spears are nice, too.

Specializing only became MORE important with Heroic Epic and the first of many GGs. First 2 GG's went to Mil Acad, my next 2 went to settled GGs. So my 2 cities were effectively generating about 4 high-production cities' worth of level-3 troops for most of the game, pausing only for necessary infrastructure in the lulls right before I was going to tech up (why crank muskets if I'm going to get Rifling soon? Time to build those aqueducts I've been putting off!). Other cities were free to build up their commerce/gold/beaker enhancers and to build up their cottages.

+2 xp and 150% bonus in HE/Mil Acad city--wasted whenever the HE city wasn't building units. Though it did give up a 25% Org Rel bonus. Forge works for either so that's a wash.

+2 xp and 50% bonus in the "other" military city--wasted whenever the city wasn't building units. Ditto with OR and forges.

Note however that it's generally a good idea to build lib/obs/uni when you can find some spare time to do so (especially if you have a higher-than-50% slider level for beakers), as all cities, even military ones, get trade route commerce. They may also get Uni of Sank/Spiral beakers and gold, not to mention beakers and gold from specialists. Market is also good for early happiness, and theater is good for happiness and especially good if your military city is a border town. Grocer for health is important later as well.

(I play Standard maps so larger maps probably need more military cities.)

Specialization ALONE will kick you up a difficulty level if you went from all-hybrid to all-specialization and learned nothing else at all.

 

[PieceOfMind]

It is to my firm belief that all cities need a reasonable amount of hammers before replaceable parts (lumbermills, as I'll chop them all forests way before) or democracy. It is also to my firm belief that building workshops on floodplains is NOT an option, as 1 hammer is hardly worth it anyway. In fact, great library and national epic often goes to a production city for the early benefits, rather than waiting for the greater benefits of building it in a GP farm later.

Therefore, my real advice is: don't worry too much about city specialization. Build a building if it has reasonable benefits, don't wait for the best city for that building, because that "best" city might never have the hammers to finish off that granary anyway. Otherwise, just build (yet another) military unit.

I don't think it's too hard to ensure you only build cities which have a minimum of 2 or 3 hills for hammers. For the cities that can't get these hills, eg. coastal cities, or cities with little food and only desert hills available, it can be wise to keep a few forests. I usually find the GP farm is where I worry about this most because it's usually put right in the middle of a bunch of flood plains which typically only have desert hills at best around them. A GP Farm should have at least 2 or 3 hills in its radius IMO so it can get the necessary buildings.

 

[DarkFyre99]

We're talking about 3 different problems here:
- how to apply specialization of cities when choosing city sites
- when to build infrastructure and when to build units
- where should I build infrastructure

I just realised, from recalling my personal experience, that this argument is atrociously complicated. This is because all of us forgot the idea that you need to have the hammers in the city to build that building in the first place. It's no good finding the perfect spot for a Wall Street and Oxford university if it produces 5 hammers a turn, and national wonders simply won't happen from buying, since the penalty is far too great.

For most of the game, you're not working every tile. You simply don't have the population for that. So it makes sense to have five tiles dedicated to hammer production: mined hills, workshops, or lumbermilled forests. When you need to build something, move some citizens from whatever they're doing and onto the heavy hammer tiles.

You can also save a couple forests to chop later in the game. There's also the :whip:

Finally, if you've got enough workers, you can swap out some farms for workshops. Just swap them back when you're done.

We're talking about two types of specialization here:
- choosing the city site, and/or deciding whether the conquered city is worth keeping or not
- building infrastructure in cities

It is to my firm belief that all cities need a reasonable amount of hammers before replaceable parts (lumbermills, as I'll chop them all forests way before) or democracy. It is also to my firm belief that building workshops on floodplains is NOT an option, as 1 hammer is hardly worth it anyway. In fact, great library and national epic often goes to a production city for the early benefits, rather than waiting for the greater benefits of building it in a GP farm later.

Therefore, my real advice is: don't worry too much about city specialization. Build a building if it has reasonable benefits, don't wait for the best city for that building, because that "best" city might never have the hammers to finish off that granary anyway. Otherwise, just build (yet another) military unit.

Worshops only produce one hammer for one food before guilds. After guilds, they produce two, and they produce three with chemistry (about the time Oxford needs to be built). Finally, with BTS, you get an extra hammer with Caste System.

Also in BTS, you can build levees, which give you an extra hammer per riverside tile.

There's plenty of hammers around for what you need. The question remains: do you need all the different types of buildings?

Not in my opinion.

 

[Shoot the Moon]

The only building I would consider building in every city is a granary. Any other are wasted hammers.

 

[axident]

The only building I would consider building in every city is a granary. Any other are wasted hammers.

Darn those useless courthouses.

 

[Shoot the Moon]

I wouldn't bother building courthouses in a small empire (for example one where I am going for a cultural victory).

Otherwise, yes courthouses.

 

[kakitadairu]

To be fair wrt Courthouses, sometimes (since I often go for Culture victory) I just don't get an opportunity to build/ whip one out in my capital and/ or Legendary cities. Building Cathedrals, ancient culture buildings, and Wonders are much high priority. Usually in these I only build the Courthouse if I'm desperate for Forbidden Palace or just right before incorporating Sid's Sushi.

Ideal Cultural Plan:

Legendary City 1: Palace, Oxford, Moai Stones, Academy, Great Engineers/ Spies/ Scientists, wonderspam
Legendary City 2: National Epic, National Park, floodplains, forests, some wonderspam when able, GPP farm
Legendary City 3: Hermitage, Wall Street, Holy Shrines, Corporations, Great Artist specialists, Cathedrals ASAP
City of Much Suffering: Globe Theater, West Point
The City of Leftovers: Heroic Epic, Ironworks

Cheers,

Dai

 

[DaveMcW]

Darn those useless courthouses.

Let's assume a city is paying 12 upkeep.

Plan A:
Work 4 farms and 4 hills for 10 turns to build a courthouse.
Cost: 10 turns of production.
Benefit: +6 through reduced upkeep.

Plan B
Work 8 cottages for 10 turns.
Cost: 10 turns of production
Benefit (non-financial): +8 from cottage upgrades, and 80 gold lump sum.
Benefit (financial): +16 from cottage upgrades, and 80 gold lump sum.

Courthouses can be useful, but cottages are often more useful.

 

[Welnic]

I've started building more courthouses now in BTS since they give you some EP. I usually didn't build them in my capital, and I didn't build them at certain times of the game since I was going to be in State Property and it wasn't worth 3 bucks. But now that I don't always go into State Property and they affect the maintenance cost of corporations, I am building a lot more.

 

[futurehermit]

Eventually I will have every building in every city simply because at some point cities run out of specialized buildings to build and commerce cities, for example, can then benefit from the extra provided by say a forge.

But early-to-mid game you don't have the hammers to build every building!

You must specialize your cities. Commerce cities get science buildings and production cities get production buildings.

Earlier than that I don't build ANY buildings except barracks in prod and granary in comm cities because I am too busy building workers/settlers/military. I will build a library in 1 city (usually capital) to get a pair of GSs for an academy in my capital and bulbing phil. But there are too many other production needs to be building a pile of buildings in each and every city. Especially in low-production commerce cities!!!

Late in the game, especially when not at war, you can build buildings (or if you still prefer specialization you can build gold/research), but not in the early game.

 

[madscientist]

Well after playing three games as Churchill (my current is doing better) I have come to the conclusion that this post probably helps me the most.

Eventually I will have every building in every city simply because at some point cities run out of specialized buildings to build and commerce cities, for example, can then benefit from the extra provided by say a forge.

But early-to-mid game you don't have the hammers to build every building!

You must specialize your cities. Commerce cities get science buildings and production cities get production buildings.

Earlier than that I don't build ANY buildings except barracks in prod and granary in comm cities because I am too busy building workers/settlers/military. I will build a library in 1 city (usually capital) to get a pair of GSs for an academy in my capital and bulbing phil. But there are too many other production needs to be building a pile of buildings in each and every city. Especially in low-production commerce cities!!!

Late in the game, especially when not at war, you can build buildings (or if you still prefer specialization you can build gold/research), but not in the early game.

Early building that do not have a specific immediate use are a luxury I cannot afford, at least if I want to win consistenly at Monarch in BTS (Current 1 win, several loses). Example

Churchill #1: I discussed this earlier in the post. Big tech lead, lone continent, some islands, low power graph numbers. My navy and tech lead is surely enough to defend my self. WRONG!!! I had the current builiding in every city, a fewwell promoted Redcoat defender, then BAM. Simulatenous massive naval landing from Isabella and Stalin. My superior redcoats were vastly outnumbers (10-1 in some cities) but inferior middle age troops. OK, lesson learned do not neglect military in BTS even on isolated continents.

Churchhill #2: Specialized cities. Capital built some good wonders, Financial city with founded/shrines theology, Great Military/production powerhouse, great commerce cities all Going Well. Expanded by taking out Ragnar, took a few Russian cities after Stalin declared on me, Teched to rifling era andattacked Stalin vassaling him. All the while continually building only pertinently (financial buildings in the shrine city, production in the military city, etc...). I felt good, I felt stronge, I felt destined for greatness. I launched a great military army against my biggest rival, Agustus (and his vassaled Monty and Darius) who was double my power graph level but very far behind in tech, surely my redcotas and cavalry can handle his prats/maces/elephants/knights. I did well, Took several underdefended cities, bribed the Chinese into attacking, took one of Darius cities. Then it came, the largest outdated stack of doom I ever saw. I sued for peace after losing some well promoted troops. I massed my best defenders in the border city, Agustus attacked 2 turns before I teched Steel and completely destroyed my army. I still have the game saved but I decided to try this again.

Churchhill #3: Great start although crowded this time. Doing well with tech and army, no horses but I do have elephants (did I always need horseback riding and construction or is that a BTS thing, I always thought it was just construction) iron and copper. Took most of Gilgamesh's valuable cities (protective/creative civ not a good neighbor), withstood a pesty Joao II(man is this guy another Catherine or what), and respecting Muhmed (double in powergraph, I am not making that Agustus mistake again).

But the thing about this game is I am thinking DO I NEED THIS BUILDING NOW??? I withstood Joaos sneak attack on my iron city without a wall and 2 archers. I continually built an army, always 1 city minimally was building axes, swords, cats, or phants. The other I built as I deamed necesary, Graneries when I could, a library in the capital and biggest commerce city, Monestary in the culturally pressed iron city (pressed from cultural Gilgamesh).

SO once again thanks for all the replies in this thread, it has defeinitely gotten me think and prioritize more. And I have built more substancial early armies, sacrficing the science slider more. I also went back to my very early thinking in CIV, getting a religion and shrine. Getting code of laws from the oracle and using the first great prophet for the shrine still works well.

I hope Churchhill #3 works out better and I am not here in a few days whining and describing Churchhill #4.

 

[Brave Jay]

I don't necesarily try to build every building, i prioritize them to fit my situation. That said, I make sure that i produce a minimum amount of hammers whenever possible, so i can build as many buildings/units as i can. i like about 8-12 hammers per city if possible(raw hammers not counting forges and factories). Of course terrain and food always determine just how many hammers i'll get. Point is, it bugs the heck out of me to just build one type of terrain improvement (all cottages, or all farms) at the expense of hammers which i could use to put in buildings to make the city more productive to the empire. I like to specialize to a degree, (heroic epic cities and wallstreet/oxford cities especially) but the large part of my empire i try to make more hybrid. It just seems to make more sense to me to have 8-12 cities making units at a time than 2-4 military cities making nothing but military units.

 

[Welnic]

Elephants do need horseback riding in BTS, and that is new. I ran into that in my last game and didn't really think about it much, but it is a new thing.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Wrong thread I think... I guess your replying to me in the Cavalry? What For? thread. Buildings in this thread

 

[madscientist]

Wrong thread I think... I guess your replying to me in the Cavalry? What For? thread. Buildings in this thread

I think the post was to my last post. I asked if war elephants needed horseback riding and construction in warlords and Vanilla, since I need both in BTS.

 

[madscientist]

Followup, I retried the Churchhill game #2 with a different strat to handle the SOD. Basically abandon the attacked city before I lose any troop, raze some internal Roman cities, retake the cities Rome just took. Seams to have worked, Dam ugly, but worked.

I am exclusively building untis for the Roman war. After that is finished I will rethink how to prioritize building my cities. Some more infrasctucture seams appropriate (JAILS, JAILS JAILS) but then again the backstabbing Qin chinese cannot go unpunished.

 

[UncleJJ]

Let's assume a city is paying 12 upkeep.

Plan A:
Work 4 farms and 4 hills for 10 turns to build a courthouse.
Cost: 10 turns of production.
Benefit: +6 through reduced upkeep.

Plan B
Work 8 cottages for 10 turns.
Cost: 10 turns of production
Benefit (non-financial): +8 from cottage upgrades, and 80 gold lump sum.
Benefit (financial): +16 from cottage upgrades, and 80 gold lump sum.

Courthouses can be useful, but cottages are often more useful.

This is a poorly thought out example. Since you started it let's continue in the same silly way. I assume plan A and B refer to the same city and merely work different tiles so all other things are equal. To make this possible we start with 8 virgin cottages, 4 grassland farms and 4 grassland hills in our city.

Under plan A we finish the courthouse in 10 turns and then start working the 8 cottages (albeit 10 turns behind) From turn 10 onwards we get a net gain of 6 gold and in BtS 2 EPs over plan B. We also get the hammer from the city tile put towards our next build.

Under plan B we religiously work cottages for a total of 120 turns by which time the courthouse has been build by the 1 hammer from the city tile. The cottages are now towns and give a total of 8 * 4 = 32 commerce. The total accumlated cost over 120 turns is 120 * 12 = 1440 gold

Now let's extend plan A to the same point in time as plan B finishes its courthouse after 120 turns. By this time it will also be working 8 towns giving 4 commerce each. Those towns will have matured 10 turns later than plan B. So net loss of commerce under plan A against plan B is:

i) 80 commerce during the first 10 turns
ii) 240 commerce due to a later start on our cottages.

Now lets compare both plans in relative terms.

plan A maintenance costs over 120 turns = 12 * 10 + 6 * 110 = 780 gold
Surplus hammers 110 (invested in anything but a library would be good)
Espionage Points 220 (BtS only)

plan B maintenance costs over 120 turns = 12 * 120 = 1440 gold
Surplus commerce = 320

plan A minus plan B = 660 gold + 110 hammers + 220 EPs - 320 commerce

assuming 1 hammer = 2 gold and 1 gold = 1 EP = 1 commerce
plan A is worth 780 more than plan B = 6.5 per turn for 120 turns
------------

So plan A is the winner by an astounding margin. It clearly shows that neglecting a courthouse in favour of simply developing cottages is a losing proposition in the long term.