Evidence for creationism, Part 2.

[Whiskey_Lord]

Yeah, command the poor guy not to touch the thing but have it sitting right inside his living space. A bit sadistic, I think.

 

[PeteAtoms]

Yeah, command the poor guy not to touch the thing but have it sitting right inside his living space. A bit sadistic, I think.

The response might be that it was a test of some kind.

But...

Why would god test Adam and Eve if they were created perfect? What's to test?

Free Will?

If god created the tree, he also created temptation and the weakness to be tempted built in for humans (why?).

You can have free will without the creation of temptation you know.

 

[magicfan101]

Again, do you realise that things can evolve, speciation can happen, purely as a result of that built in variety? Or do you claim that's impossible?

things can mutate(copying mistakes) , i never said speciationcant happen what im saying is speciation is a downward sloping because of mutations. just google poodle genetic disorders. poodles are an example of artificial selection but they show what happens when mutations accumulate. speciation can not go upward and outward only downwards because of mutations.

How did that built in variety appear in the first place?

i think you will love this response. god did it.

Can you give me a definition of 'information'?

this definition is tough. but would you agree that information is not a part of matter but is a particular type of order that represents something physically like proteins or abstract like mathematics

Can you explain how http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lenski_results_challenge_creationism is an example of information being lost?

its not the mutation required for upward and outward evolution. mutations can only be passed on in the germ line.
question if someone gets skin cancer from to much sun exposure will that be passed on to his kids? no. it has to be present in germ line which are the eggs and the little soldiers.

 

[Whiskey_Lord]

The response might be that it was a test of some kind.

But...

Why would god test Adam and Eve if they were created perfect? What's to test?

Free Will?

If god created the tree, he also created temptation and the weakness to be tempted built in for humans (why?).

You can have free will without the creation of temptation you know.

Yeah, I don't understand the need for God to allow man to be tempted constantly even before he was sinless. What sort of relationship is that? It is not only dictatorial, but seemingly vain and insecure as well.

 

[PeteAtoms]

question if someone gets skin cancer from to much sun exposure will that be passed on to his kids? no. it has to be present in germ line which are the eggs and the little soldiers.

I wonder if there is some sort of evolved response to sunlight that might help prevent the likelihood of bad things happening...

Melanins also protect microorganisms, such as bacteria and fungi, against stresses that involve cell damage such as UV radiation from the sun and reactive oxygen species. Melanin also protects against damage from high temperatures, chemical stresses (such as heavy metals and oxidizing agents), and biochemical threats (such as host defenses against invading microbes).[5] Therefore, in many pathogenic microbes (for example, in Cryptococcus neoformans, a fungus) melanins appear to play important roles in virulence and pathogenicity by protecting the microbe against immune responses of its host.

So cancer isn't really an inheritable condition, but I wonder if things like melanin levels can be passed on...

EDIT: Nevermind

 

[Berzerker]

God appears rather clueless in the Garden

1) creates man and tells him not to partake in the knowledge or he'll die
2) decides man needs a "helpmate" and after parading the animals by him (huh) puts him under and nabs a rib and creates woman who later convinces man to partake
3) lets a serpent into the Garden, a smart one (huh), and one that speaks the truth (HUH)
4) the man and woman hear the truth and partake, they "know" they're naked and make clothes
5) God walks around the Garden calling out for the man and woman
6) Doesn't recognize clothing as dead giveaway but starts asking ??? and finds out they partook
7) throws a fit and kicks them out and all mankind is "cursed" because of it
8) we had to put a cat to sleep today and I'm a bit pissed off and Job never did get a good answer

 

[magicfan101]

I wonder if there is some sort of evolved response to sunlight that might help prevent the likelihood of bad things happening...



So cancer isn't really an inheritable condition, but I wonder if things like melanin levels can be passed on...

EDIT: Nevermind

??? im lost with these post. plz elaborate a little for me
plus dont you think its a little bit weird that many different organism have melanin to protect from the suns rays. wouldn't the early animals without melanin have died since sun exposure without melanin is extremely damaging to the dna.

 

[Ajidica]

Question: Did God ever replace Adam's rib after taking it? If he didn't, then we aren't made in the image of God as we have one less rib then Adam who was.

 

[PeteAtoms]

??? im lost with these post. plz elaborate a little for me
plus dont you think its a little bit weird that many different organism have melanin to protect from the suns rays. wouldn't the early animals without melanin have died since sun exposure without melanin is extremely damaging to the dna.

Dude... stop looking at evolution as if it were in a vacuum. You should know that it heavily depends on the environment.

 

[PeteAtoms]

Question: Did God ever replace Adam's rib after taking it? If he didn't, then we aren't made in the image of God as we have one less rib then Adam who was.

Does no one else think it's odd that God can poof the whole of existence into being with some magic, but he needs a rib to make a woman?

 

[Berzerker]

a biblical scholar from the 1920s was researching Mesopotamian languages and found that Sumerian loan words or roots became part of the Bible, and Adam's "rib" had at least 2 meanings in Sumerian and/or Akkadian - rib and life force, or that which animates - so Eve came from a rib (not likely ) and was mother of all the living (its possible, we haven't even gotten into the MtDNA "Eve").

Sorry, gotta edit this

The scholar concluded (and I dont know what his peers say) that Eve was taken from Adam's "life force", not his rib

 

[PeteAtoms]

So why is eve only mentioned being created by a rib? Why didn't it say Adam too was made from a rib?

 

[magicfan101]

Question: Did God ever replace Adam's rib after taking it? If he didn't, then we aren't made in the image of God as we have one less rib then Adam who was.

fact: the rib is the only bone that can regenerate itself. Edit: repair to regenerate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regeneration_(biology)#Ribs

 

[Berzerker]

??? im lost with these post. plz elaborate a little for me
plus dont you think its a little bit weird that many different organism have melanin to protect from the suns rays. wouldn't the early animals without melanin have died since sun exposure without melanin is extremely damaging to the dna.

Primates (our lineage) had thicker hair and forests, but many monkeys do have white or light skin. It largely depends where you and your ancestors live(d). Most of the people who left Africa had darker skin and many whitened up to absorb sunlight.

 

[magicfan101]

Yeah, I don't understand the need for God to allow man to be tempted constantly even before he was sinless. What sort of relationship is that? It is not only dictatorial, but seemingly vain and insecure as well.

this is where jesus's role takes place in history

god made man in his image(free will) but he already knew that man would eventually disobey him. since he does not allow anyone to come under his presence if they are against him. jesus is the required sacrifice to reunite man with god. you can say he redeemed us from our own mistakes. plus there are a crazy amount of prophecies that predict jesus would be the one that paid the price for sin.

 

[PeteAtoms]

this is where jesus's role takes place in history

god made man in his image(free will) but he already knew that man would eventually disobey him. since he does not allow anyone to come under his presence if they are against him. jesus is the required sacrifice to reunite man with god. you can say he redeemed us from our own mistakes. plus there are a crazy amount of prophecies that predict jesus would be the one that paid the price for sin.

Why was Jesus necessary? Was Jesus a sacrifice to God, or something/someone else? I can forgive my neighbor without demanding that he kill his family.

Free will is not an adequate answer. Where does temptation come from?

 

[magicfan101]

Why was Jesus necessary? Was Jesus a sacrifice to God, or something/someone else? I can forgive my neighbor without demanding that he kill his family.

Free will is not an adequate answer. Where does temptation come from?

im back

God’s holiness and justice require that a penalty be paid for our sins. That penalty is death. Until that penalty is paid, God cannot forgive and have a relationship with sinners

any other sacrifice would come from the creation. its likes me taking your computer and offering it back to you for forgiveness for disagreeing with you.

 

[PeteAtoms]

its likes me taking your computer and offering it back to you for forgiveness for disagreeing with you.

No, it's more like a farmer torturing his livestock for acting according to their nature. And than torturing all of the livestock's offspring for something the previous generation(s) did.

 

[sophie]

this is where jesus's role takes place in history

god made man in his image(free will) but he already knew that man would eventually disobey him. since he does not allow anyone to come under his presence if they are against him. jesus is the required sacrifice to reunite man with god. you can say he redeemed us from our own mistakes. plus there are a crazy amount of prophecies that predict jesus would be the one that paid the price for sin.

Are they really our mistakes if god put the error there knowing full well that it would happen? Either God is a sadist and a masochist (being that he would kill his son himself for a crime that he basically forced his "children" to cause.) Tell me, why do we worship this guy again?

This does not make any sense whatsoever.

 

[Miles Teg]

fact: the rib is the only bone that can regenerate itself. Edit: repair to regenerate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regeneration_(biology)#Ribs

Regeneration of the rib can only occur if the membrane (the relatively fleshy bit that covers the outside of bones) is left intact and is kept in place by an artificial scaffolding structure. That's really cool if you need to use rib bone for a transplant, but it won't regrow a rib you lose outside of controlled conditions in a modern hospital. If you want to say Adam's rib was a miracle, that's fine. But don't misuse science in such a crappy way.

(its possible, we haven't even gotten into the MtDNA "Eve").

Lets.

You clearly don't understand the concept of Mitochondrial Eve and Y-Chromosomal Adam. Neither of these were the most recent common ancestor of humanity. Rather, they were the most recent common ancestor along the matrilineal/patrilineal lines, respectively. Everyone in this thread seems to be male, so all of us can trace our line back to the Y-Chromosonal Adam. He was our father's father's father's fathers' father and so on. Similarly, Mitochondrial Eve was the mother of everyone's mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's mother's and so on.

I'm not using the mother/father device to be poetic. That's a literal description of strict patrilineal and matrilineal descent. My father's father's father's mother is not in that line. Same in reverse for women. If I have a daughter but no sons, my y-chromosomal line ends, even if I still have descendants. We can track mother to daughter and father to son relations by tracking chromosomal markers, but we don't learn anything about the opposite sex. This "Adam" and "Eve" are the nearest common ancestors on those lines. However, Adam lived about 75,000 years or so ago, while Eve lived 200,000 years or so ago. They lived in societies with plenty of other humans, many of whom still have descendants today, just not in unbroken male/male or female/female lines. Our most recent common ancestor lived less than 50,000 years ago, and thanks to interbreeding and the elimination of native groups, is probably a different person (and a more recent one) than he was 500 years ago.