Evidence for creationism, Part 2.

[PeteAtoms]

the world was perfect but Adams sin brought death and decay into the world.

How did this happen?

 

[magicfan101]

In fact, you can. If you erroneously think it is broken. And you may indeed end up with a better or worse state, not just the "original" state.
"repair" in cell DNA just means "making sure that left matches right in the base pair". If both are screwed, but match, the repair won't happen. If they are not properly matched, but the repair mechanism can't make a better match, they stay. If they do not match, and a whole sequence of pairs doesn't match, the repair will not happen because the strands will drift apart.

"repair" does not mean that there is a master plan, and things will get altered until they match it.

what your saying makes sense. only if mutations are not harmful to the organism. if mutations happen on the repair mechanism. more mistakes are allowed to accumulate which cause increase rates of cancer. if the repair needs to stay stationary to keep mutations from accumulating then how could it have evolved(mutate) to accommodate all the dna structures of the diverse life forms on earth. there has to be an original blueprint for each organism

Experimental animals with genetic deficiencies in DNA repair often show decreased life span and increased cancer incidence.[15] For example, mice deficient in the dominant NHEJ pathway and in telomere maintenance mechanisms get lymphoma and infections more often, and consequently have shorter life spans than wild-type mice.[37] Similarly, mice deficient in a key repair and transcription protein that unwinds DNA helices have premature onset of aging-related diseases and consequent shortening of life span.[38] However, not every DNA repair deficiency creates exactly the predicted effects; mice deficient in the NER pathway exhibited shortened life span without correspondingly higher rates of mutation.[39]

If the rate of DNA damage exceeds the capacity of the cell to repair it, the accumulation of errors can overwhelm the cell and result in early senescence, apoptosis or cancer. Inherited diseases associated with faulty DNA repair functioning result in premature aging,[15] increased sensitivity to carcinogens, and correspondingly increased cancer risk (see below). On the other hand, organisms with enhanced DNA repair systems, such as Deinococcus radiodurans, the most radiation-resistant known organism, exhibit remarkable resistance to the double strand break-inducing effects of radioactivity, likely due to enhanced efficiency of DNA repair and especially NHEJ
taken from wiki guys

 

[cardgame]

Hmm, I think the real question is why did the animals also turn violent? I mean, supposedly everything was peaceful in Eden, but when someone else eats the apple they also gained the knowledge?

 

[carlosMM]

what your saying makes sense. only if mutations are not harmful to the organism. if mutations happen on the repair mechanism.

In understandable English please? I do not want to guess how you want these three statements to go together.

more mistakes are allowed to accumulate which cause increase rates of cancer.

uh, so? higher mutation rates do cause higher cancer rates, unless balanced by higher repair effectiveness. Guess why people die in droves when hit by radiation.
Just goes to show that radiation increases mutation rates.

if the repair needs to stay stationary to keep mutations from accumulating then how could it have evolved(mutate) to accommodate all the dna structures of the diverse life forms on earth. there has to be an original blueprint for each organism

Not understandable English either. Please learn to use question marks and other punctuation properly, as well as conjunctions. Create meaningful statements, please.

 

[Miles Teg]

the world was perfect but Adams sin brought death and decay into the world.

That reminds me. What's up with the YEC timeline and carnivores? You can't have animals (or people) dieing before the Fall, but carnivores are clearly built to kill things. They have teeth built for tearing into meat, stomachs that can't process cellulose, and a body plan built for pouncing on and chasing down things that presumably were harder to kill than a particularly thorny patch of thistles.

Presumably, the order Carnivora (and others, but they're the most visible) would have had to evolve to handle a meat eating diet. Isn't that an example of evolution?

 

[PeteAtoms]

Hmm, I think the real question is why did the animals also turn violent? I mean, supposedly everything was peaceful in Eden, but when someone else eats the apple they also gained the knowledge?

It's kind of funny how supposedly humans ate from the tree of knowledge, because humans were still dumb enough to worship a god that ostracized them. It reflects poorly on fundies when knowledge is the source of sin.

the world was perfect but Adams sin brought death and decay into the world.

How did this happen?

 

[Brian Shanahan]

Experimental animals with genetic deficiencies in DNA repair often show decreased life span and increased cancer incidence.[15] For example, mice deficient in the dominant NHEJ pathway and in telomere maintenance mechanisms get lymphoma and infections more often, and consequently have shorter life spans than wild-type mice.[37] Similarly, mice deficient in a key repair and transcription protein that unwinds DNA helices have premature onset of aging-related diseases and consequent shortening of life span.[38] However, not every DNA repair deficiency creates exactly the predicted effects; mice deficient in the NER pathway exhibited shortened life span without correspondingly higher rates of mutation.[39]

If the rate of DNA damage exceeds the capacity of the cell to repair it, the accumulation of errors can overwhelm the cell and result in early senescence, apoptosis or cancer. Inherited diseases associated with faulty DNA repair functioning result in premature aging,[15] increased sensitivity to carcinogens, and correspondingly increased cancer risk (see below). On the other hand, organisms with enhanced DNA repair systems, such as Deinococcus radiodurans, the most radiation-resistant known organism, exhibit remarkable resistance to the double strand break-inducing effects of radioactivity, likely due to enhanced efficiency of DNA repair and especially NHEJ

So you've just accepted that DNA degredation causes aging, again deliberately lieing to try and bolster your arguement. From now on it should be mandatory for you to a) quote everything in full context and b) provide proper links to the articles or books that you're quoting in order that we can see what you are trying to use without having to search half the internet for it.

Finally I would like to say that you very much remind me of one David Irving, a vile and reprehinsible man who no sensible perso has the time of day for. Is that what you want on your gravestone "He most resembled David Irving in his life", because for me that would be a horrible curse to have to endure.

Moderator Action: Please stop your personal attacks.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[magicfan101]

Well I fully ascribe intent to his liening, I published proof of his misquoting almost immediately after he posted the misqoute, and do you know what it took over 3 pages and a stern rebuke from a mod to get him to acknowledge it. No if he mistakenly used the misquote from elsewhere, he'd have looked at my post, checked it out and apologised there and then. It's what any normal person does. I do actually think he means to misquote in the full knowledge that the science doesn't support his actions. Why else does he keep doing the same thing over and over and over until he's blue in the face, again someone mistaken would have stopped it long ago.

from my memory. i thought Gould had mentioned that moths were not evidence for evolution. the source i took it from did deliberately misquote Gould. for not being careful about information i apologize. plus every time i post something im bombarded with several counter posts. i only have two hands and one brain, its hard to respond to every post with a counter response

The time for being nice to him passed for me a long time ago, when he started throwing my well reasoned and decently researched arguements back in my face as strawmen, simply because they showed him to be exactly what I have described him to be. He makes no effort to respond to posts where it is shown that a) his "evidence" disproves him, b) respond to counter points which show flaws in his arguements. And finally he ignores every single statement which proves that not alone is he deliberately twisting the facts and statements of others but also that his own arguements contain no logical constistencies also. There is no persuading him, as the only way to open his mind is through the use of a pick-axe (I'm not advocating violence, just using a graphic analogy to describe your lack of ability to assimilate new knowledge magicfan).
He joined the site simply to troll this single thread (check his start date, this thread's start date and where the majority of his posts are), so my guess is that he is a hard core YECcer who surfs the internet simply to show his YEC cojones.

i have played every civ game that's came out so far. Iv used this site in the past for info for mods. i only decide to register because i saw this topic as interesting for me. somebody ask for evidence on creation and i got plenty.

 

[PeteAtoms]

plus every time i post something im bombarded with several counter posts. i only have two hands and one brain, its hard to respond to every post with a counter response

Understandable.

the world was perfect but Adams sin brought death and decay into the world.

So how did this actually unfold?

 

[negZero]

somebody ask for evidence on creation and i got plenty.

Things am still waiting for:

1) Duke Nuke'em Forever
2) Dom's miracle that science can't explain away
3) Movie of Ender's Game
4) magicfan's 15 negative genetic traits that fit my criteria I already gave
5) Christmas
6) Evidence for creationism
7) ???
8) Profit

 

[Whiskey_Lord]

I find it interesting how negZero's perfectly valid questions have been ignored for hundreds of posts now. It makes me wonder about the integrity of the YEC argument (in addition to everything else that makes it questionable).

 

[magicfan101]

So you've just accepted that DNA degredation causes aging, again deliberately lieing to try and bolster your arguement. From now on it should be mandatory for you to a) quote everything in full context and b) provide proper links to the articles or books that you're quoting in order that we can see what you are trying to use without having to search half the internet for it.

dna degradation caused by a poor repair system, plus your quote just proves that mutations are harmful.
the title above my quoted portionathological effects of poor DNA repair

 

[sanabas]

Do you realise there's countless examples of evolution that don't rely on the old population mutating into something new? That all it relies on is variation in a characteristic, like size, or speed, or resistance to something, or even the amount of webbing between digits? What is it that's caused humans to have variations in all those traits?

 

[magicfan101]

If God created us in his image why are there harmful mutations? Does God have bad genes?

image refers to to the spiritual aspects of man. Language, creativity, love, holiness, and freedom of choice. god is not human he is a spirit with no form or body if he did he would not be god since he would be part of his creation.

 

[PeteAtoms]

image refers to to the spiritual aspects of man. Language, creativity, love, holiness, and freedom of choice. god is not human he is a spirit with no form or body if he did he would not be god since he would be part of his creation.

How does such an entity, not part of creation/universe, interact with the universe?

If there is no matter or energy attributable to god, how does he do what he is alleged to do?

And it's cute that you romanticize those 'spiritual' aspects of humans (not).

 

[negZero]

image refers to to the spiritual aspects of man. Language, creativity, love, holiness, and freedom of choice. god is not human he is a spirit with no form or body if he did he would not be god since he would be part of his creation.

Guess then jesus can't be part of God anymore then.

 

[magicfan101]

Do you realise there's countless examples of evolution that don't rely on the old population mutating into something new? That all it relies on is variation in a characteristic, like size, or speed, or resistance to something, or even the amount of webbing between digits? What is it that's caused humans to have variations in all those traits?

they are called alleles built in variety. mutations(copying mistakes) on alleles can create some new variety like blue eyes, which only happen once in human history. but this example is a loss information that caused blue eyes. this is what evolution needs but cant be sustained since they are all information losing

 

[sanabas]

they are called alleles built in variety. mutations(copying mistakes) on alleles can create some new variety like blue eyes, which only happen once in human history. but this example is a loss information that caused blue eyes. this is what evolution needs but cant be sustained since they are all information losing

Again, do you realise that things can evolve, speciation can happen, purely as a result of that built in variety? Or do you claim that's impossible?

How did that built in variety appear in the first place?

Can you give me a definition of 'information'?

Can you explain how http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lenski_results_challenge_creationism is an example of information being lost?

 

[magicfan101]

Hmm, I think the real question is why did the animals also turn violent? I mean, supposedly everything was peaceful in Eden, but when someone else eats the apple they also gained the knowledge?

god gave a commandment to Adam not to eat from the fruit of the tree or he would die. the only sin in the garden was eating from the tree which adam did. Animal death and decay came after this. the sin was disobeying god not the tree itself.

 

[PeteAtoms]

god gave a commandment to Adam not to eat from the fruit of the tree or he would die. the only sin in the garden was eating from the tree which adam did. Animal death and decay came after this. the sin was disobeying god not the tree itself.

How did it come about?