Evil Civs' Susceptibility to Armageddon Counterintuitive?

[DuckAndCower]

Is it just me, or does it seem odd that evil civs suffer the most from the effects of Armageddon? Flavor-wise, the Good civs should be attempting to prevent the Armageddon counter from rising. In practice, though, it's in their best interest to raise it at least to pre-blight levels, as that ensures the Evil and Neutral civs' lands will be covered in near-useless terrain.

Also, on a somewhat related not, it seems odd that Basium and Hyborem are encouraged to go against flavor and kill civs that share their alignment.

Any thoughts on the Armageddon issue? Should non-Sheim evil civs get some kind of bonus for making it go up? They already suffer diplomacy-wise... should they also get shafted by low-level Armageddon?

 

[Willgar]

A evil civ (Calabim / svartalfar fro example) might just want to rule the world not actually end it. Also, not sure if evil civs actually suffer the most from the counter - just gives them a reason to go AV and benefit from Sacrifice the Weak

 

[hbar]

The Sheaim are the only ones to directly benefit from it, as it determines the rate that creatures come through the planar gates. Also, evil civs can build the prophecy of Ragnarok that gives a stigmata (+ 1/2 armageddon counter to combat), as well as the AV shrine (another stigmata, don't build them in the same city!).

Other than that, they do take quite a hit - although I think it is Hyborem and not the AC that brings hell terrain into the world. You can always just use the "no hell terrain" option too.

As far as Basium/Hyborem getting bonuses from their friends dying, I agree. I think that units should only be reborn if they are killed by someone from a different religion. That would make a little more sense, at least.

 

[Blackmantle]

PoR doesn't give Stigmata. Only Prophecy Mark.

 

[KillerClowns]

...As far as Basium/Hyborem getting bonuses from their friends dying, I agree. I think that units should only be reborn if they are killed by someone from a different religion. That would make a little more sense, at least.

I half agree. It's a bit odd for Basium to go after the followers of good just to get some extra angels. "But... Basium... I've been such a loyal follower..." "Sorry mate, you're more use dead then alive."
But Hyborem slaughtering his mortal followers so he can resurrect them as demons to serve him seems so... fitting. Use the mortals to get into this world, then dispose of them.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

I half agree. It's a bit odd for Basium to go after the followers of good just to get some extra angels. "But... Basium... I've been such a loyal follower..." "Sorry mate, you're more use dead then alive."
But Hyborem slaughtering his mortal followers so he can resurrect them as demons to serve him seems so... fitting. Use the mortals to get into this world, then dispose of them.

If they were loyal followers of Basium then they would join him in the war against the veil. If they aren't helping in life then they'll help him in the after life. This is intender to be dark fantasy, so even the angels are ruthless.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Raising the AC makes a lot of sense for Barbarian trait evil civs. Much less for the other though, even the Sheaim (although their demonic units make them much less vulnerable to some AC events, and they do get constant reinforcements). I've found that using Unrestricted Leaders to play as the Sheaim with a Barbarian Trait leader is quite fun.


I just thought that I'd mention that in my modmod I'm going to add either an AV High Priest spell or an AV-only repeatable ritual that gives the player peace with the barbarian state. I'm thinking it will require Infernal Pact, AC 60, AV state religion, Sacrifice the weak, and Entropy mana. I'm thinking this will also cause the barbs to declare war on all your (non-Barb trait?) rivals. (Demons won't keep their agreements if they get a better offer, and encouraging infighting between AV civs seems appropriately thematic) It may have downsides too, like forcing you to declare war on a random civ or giving you the scorched earth trait (so you must raze all your conquests).

 

[kumquatelvis]

Maybe there could be heroes/units/buildings than can only be built when the AC is high enough?

 

[Zechnophobe]

Perhaps a demon that requires a 70 AC and a big mother of a golem too? /sarcasm

Thing is, other than whiping out forests, hell terrain isn't that bad. You get fear steads and sheut stones.

Oh, and deserts get covered in flames, that kinda sucks.

 

[Pyr0mancer]

Perhaps a demon that requires a 70 AC and a big mother of a golem too? /sarcasm

Thing is, other than whiping out forests, hell terrain isn't that bad. You get fear steads and sheut stones.

Oh, and deserts get covered in flames, that kinda sucks.

Meshabber of Dis and the Mithril Golem take forever and a day to build though, and on top of that can only be built in the Holy City.

I agree on hell terrain being good for the most part, actually. I just have a few adepts with Life I parked on certain food/luxury resources so I can have both sets (hell/normal) for maximum bonus. Also, any deserts that are in city radii or have resources have usually been Springed by the time Hell terrain comes around anyway. Any that aren't make for nice choke points and barriers to restrict enemy movement. My main complaints are just the stupid flaming mountains and flood plains. The mountains slow down my GPU , while Obsidian Plains don't seem to be working right at the moment.

 

[tiberion02]

The lack of Flood Plains -> Obsidian Plains is the biggest issue for me. If you have 2 or 3 main Science/Commerce cities on a Flood plains area, they get hit VERY hard, almost unfairly bad.

 

[Raize]

Why don't Hyborem and Basium gain when they kill opposite alignment (stealing souls or converting them) instead of like-alignment? That seems like it'd work better, flavor-wise.

 

[Pyr0mancer]

Why don't Hyborem and Basium gain when they kill opposite alignment (stealing souls or converting them) instead of like-alignment? That seems like it'd work better, flavor-wise.

Well, it would in the sense that then they'd actually fight who they're supposed to, but it wouldn't in that they would be using evil souls to make angels, and good to make manes.

Personally I have no problem with Hyborem slaughtering other evil civs for their souls, that really does seem fitting. As Basium, I tend to take control of the Overcouncil and use that to force the other good civs to go to war, rather than directly killing them.

You know, I've never had a vitalized flood plains become hell terrain (Floodplains/Plains or Floodplains/Grassland), I wonder if those will become Obsidian Plains/Fields of Perdition or Obsidian Plains/Broken Lands.

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

From what i understand Basium in not a good guy in the classical sense. In fact most think he is a demon (read his and the mercurian pedia). He abandoned his god to fight demons. And is jealous/angry at the new god of life because he wanted to be the god of life. If you didn't summon him to fight evil and you get in the way of his war for any reason then you are fair game. In fact it raises the AC when he is summoned. Angles are not holy being in the Christian sense.

(edit: Thanks MagisterCultuum I couldnt remember if life and creation were the same or different in this universe)

 

[Avahz Darkwood]

About the AC. I think all evil and/or AV civs should loose half+ of their city pop and gain the demonic citizen building when the AC reaches 100.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

It is Sucellus, god of life, whom he hates. I don't think he has any strong opinion about Amathaon, god of creation/fertility.

 

[DuckAndCower]

Oh, and deserts get covered in flames, that kinda sucks.

Especially because it tends to cripple my computer and occasionally crash Civ.

Just to be clear on what I see a problem with Hell terrain only affecting neutral and evil civs (evil civs much soon than neutral), it forces the best playstyle to go against the flavor- Good civs should try to get the AC counter up to where it's affecting evil and neutral civs, and evil and neutral civs should try to lower the armageddon counter, or failing that, get some life mana so they can sanctify all the Hell terrain (which sucks pretty bad even considering the few nifty resources it makes available).

Going back to the (off-topic)beginning of this post, though: any way of keeping burning sands from overheating my video card?

 

[Uberness]

I think it makes sense if you switch around the good > angels > evil > manes to good > manes > evil > angels, and if you think about it, a giant devil damning the innocent to serve in hell does fit flavorwise, and gameplay wise, and Basium is forcing them to serve him or converting them, whatever you want to call it.

What I think hell terrain needs are the following: Obsidian plains put back in and fire to stop destroying towns and farms on the floodplains, and maybe even a hell verison of forests, be it craggy rocks or skeleton piles or old grey dead trees.

 

[xienwolf]

Reversing it makes sense if the deaths happen from fights involving Basium of Hyborem, or the Infernals/Mercurians if you are slightly more open minded.

But remember that the Manes and Angels are produced if a Good/Evil unit dies for ANY reason, even if they are on a seperate continent and are unaware that Basium/Hyborem have entered Erebus.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

You could also allow the Hyborem and Basium units capture Manes and Angels, respectively, when they defeat a living unit. That can be done purely in XML, the same way that Taskmasters capture slaves.