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Expansion Civilizations

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Xineoph, Jan 5, 2006.

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  1. Magma_Dragoon

    Magma_Dragoon Reploid

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    South Africa is a civ; its called Zululand. City-states (Olmec, Zapotec, Venice) are not civilizations. Polynesia is in the old world.

    Why is this thread still around? Is this about the next expansion now?
     
  2. Saim

    Saim King

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    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New World
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old World

    The New World is the Americas and Oceania, while the Old World is Eurasia and Africa. Oceania is a gray area though, it can be included in both.

    Yes, the Zulu are really the only civ that was based on modern South Africa that deserves to be in. However, don't confuse the modern state of South Africa with all of cultures/tribes/states that existed before it became one state due to the British.

    Olmec, Zapotec, Venice are not civilizations? Then define civilization for me please. The way Firaxis is defining it is based on states, with a little bit of cultural groups thrown in (Native Americans, Greeks, Mayas, Sumerians, Indians, etc.). The Venetians had their own state - a Republic, in fact. The Zapotecs and Olmecs had their own culture and state as well. Olmec influence on Mesoamerica is quite important. Plus, the Olmecs where not a city-state, and neither where the Zapotecs - Venice was however.

    The reason this thread still exists is for potential future expansions/sequels.
     
  3. CivLuvah

    CivLuvah Deity

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    What are you talking about? Are you talking about my poll? The "What is your favorite civilization" poll?
     
  4. Olleus

    Olleus Deity

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    Considering he posted that two years before you even joined the forum, it appears unlikely. Also, why quote something which was posted 90 pages before?
     
  5. Saim

    Saim King

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    Since the Khmer and Ethiopians are already in the game it does seem quite old ;)
     
  6. 7StarGeneral

    7StarGeneral Chieftain

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    HA! this is what happens when patriot idiots dont know their history. First of all, Canada was only invaded once by the United States of America, in the War of 1812, which was NOT an imperialistic invasion of a neighbor as popularly potrayed. The Canadians were only remotely responsible for burning Washington, seeing as british redcoats invaded Maryland, not Canadian regulars. the war was fought for American economic sovreignty, as well as a reaction to british mistreatment of Americans abroad (impressment, anyone?). If your referring to the invasion of "Canada" in the American Revolutionary War, this was before the united States was even formed, and alll of the area was considered part of the british Empire, so everywhere that spoke English was fair game for revolution. Sparse population and Imperial sentiment are the only things that kept Canada from being part of the USA, similarly how the Royal Navy qwas the only thing keeping the British Carribean from jouining as well. Apart from that, Canada hasn't even been fully independant since the 60's and the Queen of England is still the symbolic HOS! Although Canucks refuse to except it, Canadian culture is little more than British humor ( or humour ;) ) with American values, but without American morals. Furthermore, this indepence you claim is very, very new, and was hardly gained peacefully. The American Revolution showed the British how to keep its colonies, and the Americans that fought them in 1776 and 1812 proved that to keep its North American Empire, Canada must be fortified and militarily strengthened, and to prevent pro-American sentiment, its politics must be centralized around anti-American sentiment. And in the mid 19th century, when America's stability was questioned, the British favored the doomed confederates, because that wuld weaken the US. When the civil war was won, Canada seemed fair game (manifest destiny eh? with no more slave states v.s. free states, the USA was free to go north ex. Alaska, 54' lat oregon). to buffer Canadian nationalism, the Dominion of Canada was formed as a British puppet state, created simply on the premises of anti-Americanist rhetoric, to augment British power and influence in the region (Queen Victoria was slicing up the world for her empire). The sad thing is, even after WWI, and WWII, when the British Empire collapsed and Canada could overpower the UK, Canadians remained loyal subjects of the queen's realm or a few more decades.Lesser nations were free before Canada. Australia and New Zealand peacefully withdrew before Canada. India withdrew before Canada. Burma withdrew. Tiny Brunei left before Canada grew the balls to. It took until 1968, two decades after the crumbling British Empire disinigrated, for Canada to leave the ranks of Gibraltar and the Falkand Islands to become an independant nation. Despite all this, the largest seed sown by the British monarchs, Anti-Americanism, has grown into an ugly tree that sends a bad precedent for the rest of the world.
     
  7. tobias02134

    tobias02134 Chieftain

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    I think that in considering what civs should be included in any expansion, you need to consider geography and historical importance. If you are going to argue for a Syria and a Jordan, for example, you would have two geographically similar and historically not too far apart civs. What the game needs in addition to history, is diversity. Of course, not every nation will end up in the game. That would mean over 200 civs and more from peoples without nations!

    At the same time, you can't homogenize groups of countries into civs. What are needed are the civs that have endured the longest and or been indispensable for the development of the world.

    I'd like to see a more North and South American civs (other than Aztec, Mayan, and Incan), like Haiti and Cuba for their historical importance. Parts of Africa, parts of Eastern Europe, and parts of Asia, along with some Native Americans are really ignored, because they have not had a global effect on history and are too intricate to be made civs.

    No matter how you do it, valuable civs are left out, and if you have to option to make a civ without doing too much mod stuff, you would probably end up giving it everything you want and it would have no meaning.
     
  8. Saim

    Saim King

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    Haiti and Cuba? What exactly did they do that gives them historical importance? I would prefer the Olmecs or even Mexico over two very recent island states.
     
  9. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Agreed, in the Americas the only civs i need to see are:

    USA
    Mexico
    Venezuela(or some kind of form of Gran Colombia)
    Brazil
    Maya
    Aztec
    Inca
    and 2 Native Americans, i say Sioux and Iroquois.


    In Africa, i'd like to see (excluding north africa) Mali, Ethiopia, Zulu, Congo and Swahili.

    In the Middle East(including Egypt) i'd like to see, Egypt, Arabs, Persians, Babylonian, Hittites, Assyrians, and i think i missed one(not sumer)

    In Europe (including North Africa) I'd like to see, Carthage, Greece, Rome, Spain, Portugal, France, England, Netherlands, Germany, Poland, Austria(or Austro-Hungary), 1 Balkan civ(I'd pick Romania, Serbia or Bulgaria) Russia, a unified Scandinavia for all of Scandinavian history including vikings, Celts and the Ottomans.

    In Asia,
    Mongols
    China
    Japan
    Siam/Thailand
    2 indian civs


    As for the Rest of the world, i'd like to see Polynesia.
     
  10. tobias02134

    tobias02134 Chieftain

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    I like the way you've gone about deciding (geographically), although I would change a few of your choices.
     
  11. tobias02134

    tobias02134 Chieftain

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    Ok - true, they are island nations (=no expansion), but Haiti was the first black republic, sure things have changed, but it was once the richest spot on the Western hemisphere (now the poorest, but hey). If you can have an Ethiopia, you can have a Haiti if you look at it this way.

    Not only that, Haiti defeated Napoleon's Armies. Napoleon! You don't have to play civ to know that if you share a border with him, he's going to be attacking you every other turn.

    Cuba - a key player in world history during the Cold War, but perhaps it doesn't deserve its own civ. Olmecs? Anyone who supports this has to be kidding me. The Olmecs contributions to the world are giant stone heads (not easter island)! They were the precursor to the better known Mexican civs (Aztec and Maya), but we know so little about them, you might as well make Gaul a civ.
     
  12. Saim

    Saim King

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    Technically the Aztecs, Mayans and Incas where Native American. I don't see why Brazil, Mexico or Brazil would be added either - can you please explain?

    What exactly did the Swahili do?

    I don't see how being the first black republic has anything to do with being the dominant state of Northeast Africa for a large portion of history as well as being the only African state other than Liberia to survive the Scramble for Africa.

    Gaul is a civ, its represented mostly by the Celts (Gallic Warrior, Brennus, etc.).

    Defeating Napolean is pretty good - but it needs a bit more than that do be in.

    Regarding the Olmecs, fine, but they are still important culturally tot he Aztecs and Mayans.
     
  13. tobias02134

    tobias02134 Chieftain

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    France is modern day Gaul, but yes, Celts did inhabit the region. I'm not saying that other African empires shouldn't be in, but if Haiti had developed into a modern nation, excluding it from the game would be rather absurd. I used Ethiopia as an example of a once great civ that is now in a slump. That's what happens to ALL civs (maybe not when I'm playing, but in reality). I think that Haiti is critical to recognizing civs that are marginalized.
     
  14. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Well yes i know the Aztecs, Mayans and Incas were Native American. I meant Native North American when i said Iroquois and Sioux. BTW when talking to me, note that i consider Aztecs and Mayans as Meso American, Iroqious and the like as Native American, and Inca's as well... i don't really call the inca's anything... :crazyeye:

    Brazil, Mexico or Brazil? I thin you meant Venezuela, but, i'll give it a shot.

    Mexico - i guess you could call them an important player in the history of the America's. There isn't really a reason other then to just have them.

    Brazil - i think it's pretty obvious, big important country.

    Venezuela - Very important in the history of the Americas. Have you ever heard of Gran Colombia? Simon Boliver? Liberatadors? i say Venezuela/Gran Colombia's war of independence (which includes Colombia, Panama, Guyana, Surinam, Ecuador and Peru as well as Venezuela) is much more interesting then the american war of independence.

    As for the Swahili, since your so interested in Southern Asian civilization, you should know about the Swahili, who have traded alot with Arabia, India, and later on Europe, And got rich doing so. Sure they were never a unified state, But instead they were city states like Greece or the Maya.
     
  15. Swein Forkbeard

    Swein Forkbeard Nintendo Fan

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    Hello, Sir!
    It's Called Civilization Iv, Not The Sims!!!
     
  16. Saim

    Saim King

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    1. In what way?
    2. You could say the same for Canada.
    3. Gran Colombia was somewhat short-lived, and the rest is just getting independence from the Spanish. The US shouldn't be in just because it got independence from Britain, you know.
    4. What other than trading did the Swahili do?
     
  17. Soular Powered

    Soular Powered Chieftain

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    I would like the Malay civilization to be included as a civilization.

    I mean the Malays settled 3/5 of all the ocean's surface from Madagascar in Africa to Hawaii int eh Pacific Ocean and we have built huge complexes like Borobudor in Indonesia and the Petronas Twin towers in Malaysia. We have accomplished sooo much much more than the paltry Zulus or the Pathetic Aztecs to more than merit a place as a civilization.

    The fact that Sid Meier has ignored us for the past 4 games is a monumental blunder. Its this insult this ignorance of 7% of humanity, ignorance of its achievements and history and its ways of life that makes me wanna strangle him in a fit of righteous rage.
     
  18. Mechanicalsalvation

    Mechanicalsalvation -

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  19. Gooblah

    Gooblah Heh...

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    Hmm.

    North America
    Sioux Empire
    Iroquois Federation
    United States of America

    South America/Mesoamerica

    Mayan Empire
    Aztec Empire
    Brazilian Empire
    Incan Empire

    Europe/Russia
    Celtic Empire
    English Empire
    French Empire
    Spanish Empire
    Portuguese Empire
    Greek Empire
    Roman Empire
    Carthaginian Empire
    Phonetician Empire
    German Empire
    Viking Empire
    Russian Empire

    Africa
    Egyptian Empire
    Malinese Empire
    Zulu Empire
    Ethiopian Empire

    Middle East/India
    Ottoman Empire
    Arabian Empire (Umayyad et. al)
    Persian Empire (Safavid et. al)
    Indian Empire
    Mughal Empire

    East/Southeast Asia
    Khmer Empire
    Chinese Empire
    Korean Empire
    Japanese Empire
    Mongolian Empire
    Malay Empire

    34 Civilizations. Not bad.
     
  20. Swein Forkbeard

    Swein Forkbeard Nintendo Fan

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    Hello, Sir!
    Hey, let's discuss Colonization instead!
     
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