Expressing Your Opinion and Getting Digitally Lynched

[Synobun]

You guys keep pulling this bait and switch. There are cases, like this one, where you have a real life insane fascist, claiming that at @bernie14 isn't an American because he was born in Spain (?). And if you look at the thread, I immediately was like "**** this guy. I don't care if I get infracted, I'm trolling this *****." But so much of the time, it's not that guy. Just like Hygro said, we have (and could have more) insightful people on the right, libertarians, centrists, and so on. And I would love to hear more from them. And if they're wrong, I'm more capable of figuring that out for myself. But people make it a pain in the ass for them to be here by not being respectful, by throwing around the word fascist at the drop of a hat, by dunking on them, by insulting them, and so on. So they go elsewhere and the insights and intellectualism that accompany a space that loves debate and discourse die little by little. And when people get called out for it, we get this classic switch and suddenly it's "oh no, no, we're just talking about RomanKing or JMA2286. You don't really want those people back, do you?"

Earlier today I was listening to a podcast with libertarian Tyler Cowen and communist public intellectual Zizek. It was a funny, insightful conversation. But at multiple points, I thought back to CFC and thought "lol, this conversation would never happen on CFC." Why? Cowen wouldn't deal with this place because we call blithely libertarians fascists. And Zizek would get trolled out of here for not being woke enough. That's the environment we're creating. A place that great public intellectuals would loathe.

I'll employ my inner Cloud here and ask why I should give the benefit of the doubt to someone who sees it as fair game to debate a demographic's basic humanity, which is what most "targeted rebuttals" tend to be against. A lot of the right-wing people who get dunked on until they go quiet tend to start getting dunked on after they post something particularly unsavory. That they then posted something milquetoast like "Should immigration be restricted?" doesn't remove from memory that a month before that question they said that minority immigrants were criminals. (This is just an example, you can replace specifics as you desire to make the same point.)

Posters have memories. I don't think people asking a normal question should be treated as though they began to exist only after asking that normal question. Ideas aren't independent. People asking contentious questions have agendas and biases. That these agendas and biases are called out publicly without careful tact does not seem to be a failure of the community to me.

I'll readily admit that some people jump the gun and extrapolate to a conclusion based on limited data. But this doesn't seem to be inherent to the community at large, and most of the time the extrapolations are closer to the truth than not.

 

[Hygro]

OK, more serious reply: What diverse opinions offered on CFC in the past, say, year, do you think we should try agreeing with? What value do you think we'll derive from agreeing with these views if these views were previously almost universally rejected? Why do we want to be agreed with by El Mac, Perfection, Zelig, or Boots? (TBH I do think being agreed with by El Mac and Boots is nice, but I'd like it quantified why you think these specific people should be the gold standard, the intent, behind our interactions and appeals.)

Why can't we like posts? Why must we meet your standard for liking? Why are our standards lesser when compared to yours? How many people here can you actually say simply intend to win with no regard for substance?

I mention those people because they are substance driven even when being stylistic.

The person whose name I forgot but remember is @inthesomeday . Just as fiery and in the same camp but an example of a open mind willing to pause. You too synsensa but as Truthy said we can still ban the actual RKs without driving away VRWCAgent and keeping @Tristan_C wary of posting openly. I mean hell I just agreed with someone in a debate, but they started slinging insults I said “look in the mirror” and they accused me of all kinds of identity related things to shut me down, completely out of pocket, and the post was liked by someone when all it was was venom. Both guilty in my book. Both part of this uncoordinated crew. Now I’m not going anywhere but others did.

 

[Synobun]

Inthesomeday called me a fascist once.

 

[Hygro]

Inthesomeday called me a fascist once.

Hero.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Why do we want more diverse opinions on topics that involve other peoples basic humanity?

Whom does it help to openly debate whether transpeople are mentally ill or not?

Or whether African-Americans are inherently criminal?

Or whether women are capable of reaching the same intellectual highs as men?

Or whether Jews control the world behind the scenes?

Or whether the LGBTQ+ is leading children to damnation?

Or openly opinining about whether Muslims should be the continued targets of drone strikes?

If you can't grasp that entertaining such debates makes other people uncomfortable, pushes people whose voices usually aren't heard away in favor of the generic rent-a-gob opinion then fine, have your little bland, straight white cismale opinions that dominate every other forum, have your little centrist debate whether you "rationally" and "logically" discuss the basic rights of human beings that are still openly being discriminated against

It's gross and uncomfortable and if you can't grasp that, that's a failing of your perspective, not anyone elses

 

[rah]

Because any opinion can reinforce your own opinion or challenge you to change it.
In the old days Gay rights were a taboo subject. Would you prefer that they were never discussed which led to a change in a majority of the population.
You must take the bad with the good.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Because any opinion can reinforce your own opinion or challenge you to change it.
In the old days Gay rights were a taboo subject. Would you prefer that they were never discussed which led to a change in a majority of the population.
You must take the bad with the good.

There's a difference between discussing it, advocating it and allowing for people who're one step away from pushing LGBTQ people into reperative therapy or worse, to spread their ****

And it's easy for you to say, the media and general historical conversation about transpeople is that they're one of 3 things:

1. A sex worker/Victim
2. A maniac/Serial Killer
3. Pervert

Things might be slightly better now but there's still a crap load of people who hold fast to those misbeliefs.

 

[rah]

Hearing a lot of the crap convinced a lot of people that it was just plain wrong, that may not have been convinced otherwise.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Hearing a lot of the crap convinced a lot of people that it was just plain wrong, that may not have been convinced otherwise.

No. What ultimately convinces people is that they know a person who is on the LGBTQ spectrum and that they AREN'T the devils that the media and others have traditionally sought to depict, more so if they are family.

It's VERY easy to ignore arguments, persuasive or otherwise, it's not so easy to ignore it when it's your face and you have to confront it.

Even up to 2010s the conversation was and let's be frank here; still is utterly awful especially about transpeople. You've seen it in this very forum yourself.

 

[Hygro]

Why do we want more diverse opinions on topics that involve other peoples basic humanity?

Whom does it help to openly debate whether transpeople are mentally ill or not?

Or whether African-Americans are inherently criminal?

Or whether women are capable of reaching the same intellectual highs as men?

Or whether Jews control the world behind the scenes?

Or whether the LGBTQ+ is leading children to damnation?

Or openly opinining about whether Muslims should be the continued targets of drone strikes?

If you can't grasp that entertaining such debates makes other people uncomfortable, pushes people whose voices usually aren't heard away in favor of the generic rent-a-gob opinion then fine, have your little bland, straight white cismale opinions that dominate every other forum, have your little centrist debate whether you "rationally" and "logically" discuss the basic rights of human beings that are still openly being discriminated against

It's gross and uncomfortable and if you can't grasp that, that's a failing of your perspective, not anyone elses

This is what I’m talking about.

Here’s my real life

But on CivFanatics you be responding to my complaint, that even I am being lumped into bad people, that you are generally against some bad people.

I don’t generallyadvertise that I’m an ally because I’m doing my own thing but I’m not your enemy and not the enemy of oppressed people more generally.

But I am against bullying and misattribution on CFC regardless of the identity of who posts.

 

[rah]

And and I believe it convinced me of the unfairness of it. I can't be the only one.
I know you don't believe in free speech and I'm not going to rehash that whole thread.
You view yourself as a victim and it impacts how you feel about everything. It shouldn't give you a license to hate.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I know you don't believe in free speech and I'm not going to rehash that whole thread.

With all due respect Rah, I feel this is disengenuous, speak all you want but don't expect to not be held to account or judged. That others freakout at such a concept is not my problem.

You view yourself as a victim and it impacts how you feel about everything. It shouldn't give you a license to hate.

I'll let you into a little secret Rah, I don't even have the option of viewing myself as anything other than a victim when my entire life has been one of exactly that; I'm either a sad freak who needs help, someone on the recieving end of physical or verbal abuse on a daily basis for no other reason than being MYSELF or a disgusting little "tranny" who seeks to enter into woman's changing rooms for sexual reasons.

I honestly don't think you "get" it.

This is what I’m talking about.

Here’s my real life

View attachment 542733

But on CivFanatics you be responding to my complaint, that even I am being lumped into bad people, that you are generally against some bad people.

I don’t generallyadvertise that I’m an ally because I’m doing my own thing but I’m not your enemy and not the enemy of oppressed people more generally.

But I am against bullying and misattribution on CFC regardless of the identity of who posts.

@Hygro What exactly do you want me to say?

 

[rah]

I'll let you into a little secret Rah, I don't even have the option of viewing myself as anything other than a victim when my entire life has been one of exactly that; I'm either a sad freak who needs help, someone on the recieving end of physical or verbal abuse on a daily basis for no other reason than being MYSELF or a disgusting little "tranny" who seeks to enter into woman's changing rooms for sexual reasons.

I honestly don't think you "get" it.

Oh I get it very well and you prove my point.

You think your experience is the only way to be oppressed, or if not, it is the worst possible one. You just don't get it. I do feel sorry for what you have endured, but others have also for many other reasons. You are not that special.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Oh I get it very well and you prove my point.

You think your experience is the only way to be oppressed, or if not, it is the worst possible one. You just don't get it. I do feel sorry for what you have endured, but others have also for many other reasons. You are not that special.

You think entertaining the bigots in their little dances will somehow convince them that they should treat minorities with anything resembling humanity and dignity but you fail to account for the fact that in doing so you are effectively lending them a legitimacy they do not have.

You're far enough removed from the topic to not get that openly discussing whether or not minorities should be treated equally is effectively opening up a debate that should be closed and settled and you're naive enough to think it leads to more acceptance than rejection. You are wrong, history shows you to be wrong, the real world shows you to be wrong, the entirety of discourse on the internet shows you to be wrong, but yet you persist because you refuse to grasp the fact that some topics should not be up for debate.

It's as gross and gauche as openly discussing whether children should be able to consent to sex with adults, it's disgusting to me and it's awkward as hell to have to read some of the exchanges in this forum from people who supposedly mean well but sure as hell do like to put forth mistruths and lies about minorities and yet I am meant to hold my tongue, judging by Hygro's screed.

And please; I couldn't care less about what you personally think of me, but what i don't appreciate is this disengenuous crap about how supposedly i think my experience is the only way to be oppressed, what is this nonsense? Absolute rubbish that completely ignores the fact that i defer to others on their experiences when it comes to minorities. A joke of a remark.

 

[rah]

The fact that blacks and gays have rights they didn't have decades ago prove me right. While not enough, it's trending in the right direction and talking about it is the only way to keep it moving forward.
You may think otherwise. That IS your right. That is your opinion. You're free to express it.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

The fact that blacks and gays have rights they didn't have decades ago prove me right. While not enough, it's trending in the right direction and talking about it is the only way to keep it moving forward.

No. We can get rid of bigotry and racism by making a concerted effort and not trying to appease people uncomfortable with the existence of either, but neither the political nor social will exists and the blame is shouldered by centrists who want to please both but forget they are diametrically opposed to each other.

Go and ask the "black" community whether things are getting better, ask them whether they feel their communities are on par with their white counterparts, whether they have the same educational opportunities as whites, ask them if they have equal life quality, ask them if they have equal treatment under and by, law enforcement.

You *think* things are getting better but you couldn't be more wrong; societal discrimination is increasing, societal disenfranchisement is increasing, the weak get weaker whilst the strong consolidate their position and this sitting in the middle in hopes of appeasing both "sides" has material consequences for those already vulnerable and lacking power.

 

[rah]

When that is proved, please let me know. Until then it's just your opinion.
We are all entitled to our opinions. Oh, I forgot, you don't believe we are.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

When that is proved, please let me know. Until then it's just your opinion.
We are all entitled to our opinions. Oh, I forgot, you don't believe we are.

Do you think minorities find the open discussion and debate comfortable on whether or not they qualify as human beings entitled to the same basic rights as their "normal" or non-minority counterparts or do you perhaps believe they might take issue with such things been up for debate.

Or do such things not even enter your mind?

Have your little opinions but don't expect others to not be made uncomfortable or dislike you for the implications that arise from openly debating their humanity or reducing their struggles to a mere trivial discussion.

That's what you and Hygro don't get and i doubt you ever will because you're used to your opinions being given equal weight to those that go through what you discuss and debate in a detached manner.

 

[rah]

Minorities have more rights then they used to. That's really all that matters in the long run.
Is there universal justice now? Of course not, but we're better than the the 50's and 60's when I was growing up.
I guarantee it was way worse then to be a black man or a gay man.
I believe discussing it contributed to the improvement.
So yes, those things enter my mind. You seem to be the one more closed minded about it.
But again, opinion. We should be able to express them freely.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Minorities have more rights then they used to. That's really all that matters in the long run.

I can be fired from my job on the basis of a characteristic that i had no choice on having. I can no longer serve my own country. I can still be denied medication on the basis of somebody elses beliefs. You don't get it.

Is there universal justice now? Of course not, but we're better than the the 50's and 60's when I was growing up.

For who exactly? You think non-whites see it that way? You think hispanics think things haven't gotten worse in the last couple of years? What about African-Americans who have watched their communities be ignored by successive waves of politicians and parties?

I guarantee it was way worse then to be a black man or a gay man.

Women are watching their reproductive rights be assaulted by a collective group of ignorant, sexist men who couldn't even point out the most basic parts of their female anatomy.

African-Americans are condemned to a life of being treated as second class citizens in comparison to their white counterparts, never mind their disproportionate treatment by police and constant disenfranchisement by a party that controls the apparatus of power.

Hispanics are literally being rounded up, put into concentration camps and deported to countries they've never even lived in or visited.

LGBTQ+ are still facing pushback for trivial things, especially transpeople who are now pawns in a culture war. Transpeople are still very vulnerable, especially if you aren't lucky enough to live in a more progressive state, nevermind the whole issue of actually transitioning costing a **** load. Treatment of LGBTQ+ people still varies tremendously depending on state and on whether you live in or out of a city.

So when you tell me that "things are better" i have to ask,then why are we still so far behind?

Why did it take decades to even consider whether two consenting adults of the same sex should be able to marry each other in what is essentially a purely legal ceremony?

I posit that it is because we have tolerated beliefs that espoused negativety and hostility to those communities impacted, because it is uncomfortable to hold your own to account, it is uncomfortable to be confronted with the fact that parts of this country hold views that are monstrous, ghoulish and disgusting, that some of these people's opinions shouldn't be valued or listened too, because to do so stymies progress.

I haven't even begun to mention class or wealth.

You think an African-American pulled over by a white police officer on the basis of riding whilst black cares that things are "better"? You think a woman cares that things are "better" when the GOP are doing their best to re-criminalize and prevent abortion or birth control?