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Extending the generic property system

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Caveman 2 Cosmos' started by AIAndy, Jan 20, 2012.

  1. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    I am having conceptual problems with this whole implementation. I am hoping it is just teething problems. Bullying was considered your Christian duty in the early industrial times but now is becoming a crime.
     
  2. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Suggestions?
     
  3. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    @AIAndy, I think I can express one disease in terms of this property system but only in words so far not in code.

    Disease - Malaria (Swamp Disease)

    Source - Plots - Terrain Marsh or Feature Flood Plains - adjusted for latitude.
    Target - City
    No spread elsewhere.

    Base Value = +5 for each type of bad plot in fat cross in Tropics +3 for each bad plot in Temperate +1 for each bad plot in Polar.

    Increasing value = +6 per population of the city

    Medical buildings and drugs will reduce the amount and a Project/UN vote may remove it completely.

    Effect value
    0 -> no effect
    1-30 -> +1 unhealthy, +5% extra food needed to grow, -5% :hammers:
    31-60 -> ditto
    ... -> ditto
     
  4. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    @Dancing Hoskuld

    How about this?

    -----

    Disease (Malaria)
    Req Terrain: Swamp or Flood Plains in City Vicinity
    Max Latitude: 30 Degrees
    Min Disease Level: +25
    Max Disease Level: +100000 (basically cannot achieve)
    Health: +5:yuck:
    Obsolete Tech: Homo Superior
    Replaced by: Treatment (Malaria)
    • +5% Extra Food to Need to Grow
    • -5% :hammers:

    -----

    Treatment (Malaria)
    Req Tech: Ancient Medicine
    Req Building: Disease (Malaria) AND (Healer's Hut OR Apothecary Shop OR Plague Hospital OR Hippocratic Oath OR Doctor's Office OR Field Hospital OR Hospital OR Vaccine Lab OR Red Cross OR Center for Disease Control OR Medical Clinic OR Research Hospital)
    Health: +4:yuck:
    Obsolete Tech: Homo Superior
    • +1 :health: with Medicine
    • +1 :health: with Antibiotics
    • +1 :health: with Modern Health Care
    • +1 :health: with Smart Drugs

    -----

    Its not exactly what you said but it is all possible and along the same lines. Basically the "Treatment" building replaces the "Disease" building. And over time the treatment building gets better at treating the disease.

    Note if I missed a Medical building its only because there was so many to list.
     
  5. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    No, because it does not model the way malaria works. ;) The increase of problems with in population is fundamental. Besides they have been saying we would have a cure for it in the next ten years for almost 150 years and we are still no closer. Also the outbreak of the disease event needs to be proportional to the level.

    Also if I don't do this one as a property then how will I learn so I can do the others?
     
  6. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Hmm you could maybe have it give :yuck:% instead? Use the ...

    Code:
    <iHealthPercentPerPopulation>0</iHealthPercentPerPopulation>
    But instead of +:health: you have -:health:.

    Well wouldn't you think by Homo Superior they would have a cure? I mean we have a Cure for Cancer in the game even before that.

    Proportional to what level? The city level?

    Wouldn't all Diseases be the same property? If you have a +Disease score then you have a high risk of diseases in your city. If you have a -Disease score then your at less risk. Not sure what would increase the disease rate.
     
  7. AIAndy

    AIAndy Deity

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    The plan is to have some major diseases modelled as separate properties each.
    That allows to stay close to the actual behavior of the disease.
     
  8. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Population in theory, but not directly proportional but geometrically proportional. As the population increases so does the percentage of the population affected.

    Each disease works very differently. Malaria is not contagious between cities. Plague is and Small Pox is very very contagious. Other diseases are unit related affected by length of war and size of stacks.
     
  9. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Ah ok. Well I am glad your the one doing that then. You seem to know what your doing.
     
  10. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    @AIAndy/Hydro - ok, I've changed my mind on this ;) I still don't think (real world concept) 'crime' can be negative, but I now don't think what we are modelling is as simple as the crime rate. It's more the prediliction towards crime. We have to allow negative values for diffusion to work correctly (or else powerful anti-crime buldings in a city won't have a crime reduction effect on nearby cities via trade routes etc., which I think we want them to).

    So actually it's just a cognitive dissonance issue with the value display. Probably just needs players to get used to it unless we can think of a better display name than 'crime'

    Incidentally, if crime-fighting diffusion turns out to be an important mechanic I'll likely need to do some AI work for it. However, it's definately a second-order thing compared to direct local crime (at least with current trade route diffusion rates), so it can wait I think.
     
  11. Koshling

    Koshling Vorlon

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    Something odd going on I think. I just started a play test game, and on turn 12 my capital, the only building present being the palace, has -91 (-3). The palace is -20 per turn and there are no other sources apart from the 1 population. Why -3 per turn? Does that number include the effect of diffusion and decay? Even if it does it seems like it should be more at the current level. Also, although I can see why you would choose to display the effective per turn change, I'd also like to see the source-only number from my buildings. Can we add hover text to the -91 (-3) string to provide more details and a breakdown?
     
  12. AIAndy

    AIAndy Deity

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    It is the total accumulated change to that property in the last turn. So it includes all effects.

    I'll add that (tomorrow probably).
     
  13. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Yes, start with small variables when you implement an new feature. Not massive gamebusting ones like you just did. There was no sound reason for the Crime per pop to be a 5 to start. In fact the 1 you said was too weak was in fact the better way to go. Lay a subtle foundation and then gather data. If too weak up 1 step and again gather more data.

    What's gonna fill the void from game start till when Town watch man becomes available? Will the build up of "crime" nullify the watchman's reduction capabilities?

    Is "crime" now the Mods main focus and only way to play?

    Has a new "rev" called "crime" been force fed to everyone who would like to play the mod? If this is the case then it's no longer C2C, everything that the mod had to offer is now 2nd fiddle. Unless this new addition is made an Option like REV is.

    So let the flamers and dancing trolls come out to bash what I've just said. But they are still legitimate questions and observations even if they go against the grain of the "in" crowd.

    I know you guys don't like my criticism but I feel it's something you need to hear.

    JosEPh
     
  14. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Well I think the timing of the implementation is wrong, it should have come out after v22 so there was a long time to tweak it before inflicting it on the non-SVN crowd.

    I am not yet convinced of the implementation, but then I wasn't when usable mountains first came in and now I can't live with out them. ;)
     
  15. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    I moved it back down to 3 already. And the reason I thought it was too weak was non of my cities even had +crime they all had -crime. Which is why I thought it was too weak in the beginning. Most had like -300 crime or more. That's why it was upped to +5 in the beginning.

    Well you CAN built anti-crime buildings like the Chieftain's Hut. Additional tweaks can be made if need be before the freeze to compensate for the lack of anit-crime units. Then they can be reversed after the units are implemented.

    Its just a new feature, just like corporations, espionage or cultures. Yes it is not an optional setting at the moment. Not sure how to make it optional for that matter. AIAndy may be able to.

    For now we need as many testers as possible to balance it. (see the response above) Also I think its quite difference from Rev.

    I hope you understand that I always try to respond to your comments in a civil manner and do not "flame" you. As for the others I cannot speak for them.

    Between you and DH you are my counter weights to falling off the deep end of modding. I do appreciate your opinions.
     
  16. gcaliber

    gcaliber Chieftain

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    I'm playing a new game with the 3 crime per pop. I have no buildings that add to crime and chief's hut and crosses in every city and I still have to limit pop growth or I won't be able to keep cities happy which also means I can't afford to switch out of chiefdom and found any more cities until I get courthouses. At that point I think I'll still have to limit growth until constitution unless I stay in chiefdom, but that still means countering a lot of extra unhappiness to found more cities.
     
  17. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Build Governors Pet and Menagerie buildings. This lets you build three types of Enclosure Bear, Wolf and Bird. That gives a total of +5:) in a city. Build Carnivals at Trade which allows even more enclosures.
     
  18. Hydromancerx

    Hydromancerx C2C Modder

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    Also build things like Monuments, Obelisks or Steles if you have the right stuff to build them. There are lots of like :) buildings you can get that either don't cost gold (except for normal maintenance) or even bring in ore gold (such as the Seamstress Hut or Shaman Hut). Also some religions can give you :) buildings as well.
     
  19. gcaliber

    gcaliber Chieftain

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    I am not sure what you mean... All of my cities are currently happy, but crime is still slowly going up. I don't think I can switch out of chiefdom in order to found more cities is the problem. If I let them grow really big that will also mean crime is worse which means more unhappiness eventually.
     
  20. God-Emperor

    God-Emperor Deity

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    Why not found more cities? The civic doesn't stop you from doing so, it only applies a penalty.

    The only penalty for going over the limit is unhappiness. If your cities have at least the same amount of "excess" happiness at the population you are limiting them too (for crime reasons) as the penalty for founding an extra city, then there is no real penalty to founding another city. Once you do switch civics, the penalty for the extra city (or cities) will go away and you can have even more of them.
     

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