Extra Traits for C2C

@Thunderbrd:

I thought about this last night, and I think you may be right, that giving Combat II off the bat is a bit OP, because of all the things it unlocks. However, I could make a new promotion, that is only given free to units of Aggressive leaders, which gives +10% strength but doesn't unlock a whole bunch of other stuff. So then Aggressive would give Free Combat I and Free Fighter (or whatever I name it). That would be incredibly easy to do. Does that sound reasonable?
I like that, yes. But I'll counterpropose with some additional consideration. Aggressive, to me, seems to be a leader who would train his troops, or inspire his troops, better towards attack than defense.

So I say Combat I + Aggressive I (which also unlocks a 3 step Aggressive chain perhaps).
Aggressive I: +15% Attack Strength, -10% Defense Strength.

This means units under Aggressive leaders would be much stronger at attacking (combined, these free promos would mean out the gate a +25% stronger unit at attacking and no benefit for defending.)

The synergy between this and a Barbaric leader under my proposal would be pretty potent despite Barbaric being mostly negative. They'd have a Savage army capable of extreme power when attacking but terrible at defense. (at least at base.)

Sure it sounds reasonable.
Do you think aggressive is underpowered? Do you think it deserves another free promotion? Just curious what the motivation to do this is.
With the crime penalty I do somewhat agree that they need a bit more of a buff though. Either way we'll put it in and maybe remove the +15% gg's.

Could you please consider doing some other unique promotions, such as seafaring instead of getting combat 1 on ships. 2 traits have free amphibious, perhaps the city raider 1 promotion. The Nomad trait has a bunch of free powerful promotions too etc etc.
1) We'll put every trait under the microscope here so we'll get to consider those as they come up I think. With Aggressive, since its the first under close evalution, we're establishing a basic 'power quotient' against which all other promos will be judged but also trying to get it up to snuff with what we all 'sense' is the basic value of the other traits as they generally are and have been.

2) I can agree that Agressive is slightly underpowered in comparison to say, -25% EXP needed to Promote from Charismatic and multiple decent promos from Protective and Nomadic (however those promos don't have such prerequisite unlocking power as Combat I (currently).) So yeah, this is probably a good idea to give them a second, slightly weakly powered Promo that cannot be gained any other way.

3) Since we should be evaluating traits on two levels, both ALL POSITIVE and MOSTLY POSITIVE, I think we need to keep the workup on them clearly separated and ensure that the trait is balanced either way, thus its easier to first consider just the ALL POSITIVE layout. Without any negative, I see no reason to then go beyond and establish any GG emergence benefit.

4) Then, with a slightly negative in play, we can have some GG % bonus (25% I think would be good from what you were suggesting before to push that number up a touch).

Crime penalty on Aggressive kinda makes sense but kinda doesn't. You have a leader who may have a more disgruntled public (due to being rather aggressive with neighbors so often) but also a bit more afraid of their strong leader's unyielding penalties for breaking his laws. Therefore I think the two effects would balance out to no net crime bonus or penalty. However, since we're waiting for me to get the War Weariness tag worked up, I can understand the penalty should come from somewhere so I suppose a small crime penalty like 1 crime / 2 population might be acceptable to me to balance against +25% GG emergence bonus.


So to sum up what we have so far:
Aggressive (Vanilla BtS):
- Free Combat I for Melee and Gunpowder Units
- Production bonuses for Military buildings (Barracks and Drydocks)

Aggressive (Current):
- +25% Civic Upkeep
- +15% GG Emergence
- Free Combat I for Melee, Gunpowder, Hi-Tech, and Assault Mech Units
- Production bonuses for Military buildings
- +10 crime in City if Crime > 200

Aggressive (ls612 changed to):
- +15% GG Emergence
- Free Combat I and Combat II for Melee, Gunpowder, Hi-Tech, and Assault Mech Units
- Production bonuses for Military buildings

And now we have the following models on the table (a game option would allow for choice between the two):

Aggressive (All Positive):
- Free Combat I AND Aggressive I (+15% Attack, -10% Defense) for Melee, Gunpowder, Hi-Tech, and Assault Mech Units
- I'm suggesting we change the above to: all Combatant units (requires defining all Combat intended units with the 'Combatant' sub-combat class (as opposed to Civilian))
- Same Production bonuses as current

Aggressive (Mostly Positive)):
- +25% GG Emergence
- +1 crime / 2 population OR +25% War Weariness incurred during war
- Free Combat I AND Aggressive I (+15% Attack, -10% Defense) for Melee, Gunpowder, Hi-Tech, and Assault Mech Units
- I'm suggesting we change the above to: all Combatant units (requires defining all Combat intended units with the 'Combatant' sub-combat class (as opposed to Civilian))
- Same Production bonuses as current

There's still some points to discuss mentioned here. Otherwise, is this looking good for everyone?
 
Now, +25% war weariness doesn't seem logical for an aggressive personality. A Defensive one, yes. But Aggressive?
Honestly, I'm fine with significant nerfing of traits but let's do it in ways that don't clash with the trait's name itself. :)

Also, what about the other traits? Excessive, Barbaric, Organized, Spiritual, etc? Surely, all of them need to be looked over with a fine tooth comb, and not just Aggressive?
Please don't get mad at me.
Kaldeth never got mad at me when I suggested changes for his mod. He seemed to like them. And I don't think he ever got annoyed with me.
So, please, people, don't get angry at me.
 
Now, +25% war weariness doesn't seem logical for an aggressive personality. A Defensive one, yes. But Aggressive?
Honestly, I'm fine with significant nerfing of traits but let's do it in ways that don't clash with the trait's name itself. :)

Also, what about the other traits? Excessive, Barbaric, Organized, Spiritual, etc? Surely, all of them need to be looked over with a fine tooth comb, and not just Aggressive?
Please don't get mad at me.
Kaldeth never got mad at me when I suggested changes for his mod. He seemed to like them. And I don't think he ever got annoyed with me.
So, please, people, don't get angry at me.

I think we'll get to them once they come under evaluation. One at a time allows us to really discuss them each out without this conversation being absolute chaos which so many insist on it being despite my best efforts ;)

The justification I personally have for War Weariness is both from a game design perspective and a Rationale perspective.
1) Game Design: You have a powerful leader when it comes to invading, but if you sustain a war for too long your people will quickly weary of it and it will mess up your economy. So to play this leader correctly, avoid long wars, prepare ahead of time to crush your opponent quickly and decisively and you'll be playing to your strength. Since you are so generally strong AT attacking, you should be more capable of keeping your wars short as long as you come in hard and fast and always keep your opponent on the defensive.

This would tend to motivate the Aggressive Leader's AI (programmed to tend to attack at the slightest provocation) to accept small gains in war and take peace agreements more quickly, giving them time to recover and launch another attack as soon as their War Weariness fades away.

2) Rationale: Your people know you tend to be invasive. Perhaps they've been invaded and assimilated themselves and carry some deep seeded resentment for that. They live with constant concern for the next war to come, knowing it is inevitable, and knowing their voices crying out to refrain from such aggression falls on deaf ears. Therefore, they quickly grow more frustrated and irritated by this style of leadership when war returns to plague them once more, regardless of whether this is due to your leader's next invasion or to retribution from the enemies your leader has made. However, when at peace, the populace is quite happy to bask in the glow of that rare sensation of feeling a bit more secure so their irritation with this Aggressive leader is easily abated by the slightest taste of pacifism.
 
Ah. Okay.
When you put it like that. I totally agree with you.
And you do have a good point, one at a time is better, and it leads to less chaos.

Sorry for me seeming to be a bit abrasive, it's not on purpose. I just tend to be stubborn. Like my dad, (I miss him. :( ).

I also hope we do eventually cycle around all the traits to the right people. Like why is Shaka Barbaric? Was he known for burning people alive like Nero? :)

Maybe in time, there could be optional traits, for a few special rulers that deserve them. Like Stalin could have Atheist, and not allow religion. :) That's Stalin down to a T.
 
I think we'll get to them once they come under evaluation. One at a time allows us to really discuss them each out without this conversation being absolute chaos which so many insist on it being despite my best efforts ;)

The justification I personally have for War Weariness is both from a game design perspective and a Rationale perspective.
1) Game Design: You have a powerful leader when it comes to invading, but if you sustain a war for too long your people will quickly weary of it and it will mess up your economy. So to play this leader correctly, avoid long wars, prepare ahead of time to crush your opponent quickly and decisively and you'll be playing to your strength. Since you are so generally strong AT attacking, you should be more capable of keeping your wars short as long as you come in hard and fast and always keep your opponent on the defensive.

This would tend to motivate the Aggressive Leader's AI (programmed to tend to attack at the slightest provocation) to accept small gains in war and take peace agreements more quickly, giving them time to recover and launch another attack as soon as their War Weariness fades away.

2) Rationale: Your people know you tend to be invasive. Perhaps they've been invaded and assimilated themselves and carry some deep seeded resentment for that. They live with constant concern for the next war to come, knowing it is inevitable, and knowing their voices crying out to refrain from such aggression falls on deaf ears. Therefore, they quickly grow more frustrated and irritated by this style of leadership when war returns to plague them once more, regardless of whether this is due to your leader's next invasion or to retribution from the enemies your leader has made. However, when at peace, the populace is quite happy to bask in the glow of that rare sensation of feeling a bit more secure so their irritation with this Aggressive leader is easily abated by the slightest taste of pacifism.

I think that aggressive leaders get into more wars and would then get more WW without adding a War Weariness modifier to them. I think that giving them the ability to go and attack more often will naturally lead to your Rationale conclusion happening, ie that more wars will happen and peace will be rarer.

Anyways, what are your thoughts on Agricultural?
 
I think that aggressive leaders get into more wars and would then get more WW without adding a War Weariness modifier to them. I think that giving them the ability to go and attack more often will naturally lead to your Rationale conclusion happening, ie that more wars will happen and peace will be rarer.

Anyways, what are your thoughts on Agricultural?

Sure but they wouldn't hold on to war as long. I presume WW level is a motivator for a leader of any kind to end a war right? Also... while I agree with your point in general, there's a factor involved where the people KNOW the nature of their leader and thus live in more constant anxiety and frustration as a result are just more likely to raise a fit if war goes poorly or goes on for too long.

Mind you, that element, as presented, would be in play in a game option that gives positive traits some negative qualities and not there at all if that game option wasn't played with. So if you disagree with it being a factor for Aggressives, what would you think WOULD be a poignant penalty for Aggressive personality leaders? I'm listening for counterproposals here.

Also, I want to make sure we've had all voices that want to chime in on the subject speak up before moving on because after we do, I don't want us to be going back through to re-edit these all over again!
 
I'm probably not going to participate as I get tired of being accused of things I have not done.

If Civic maint. is Gone for good, then half my suggestions are moot anyway.

The other is adding or reducing Crime. I can see several Leaders that Should reduce crime and several that could add to Crime. A Revolutionary trait does Not add crime. The Revolution the leader is leading is viewed by the former established government as a Crime but it's not a Crime for those in revolt. Please don't add Crime to revolutionary.

There you go.

JosEPh
 
Assigned with no consideration for the leader's history or governing style. Foreigner is by far the worst offender here, being applied to such people as Winston Churchill (Who was born in Oxfordshire), Huayna Capac, Emperor Meiji, Prime Minister Pearson, and a host of other nonsensical choices.

Correct, they were given out with no consideration for the leader's history, instead purely based on the number of of leaders who had each one. It was incredibly tedious to go through them all like I did. If you want list out which leaders need to be changed keeping them at least close to parity in terms of distribution (so we don't have a situation where we have 30 aggressive and 1 scientific like we did before :) ) be my guest. At some point I might do this myself when I have the free time and can be bothered ;)

When do you think you can get at least 2 done and let others look at it? But did anyone do the TAGs yet as requested, Pls . . . SO

When koshling hooks me up I guess. Nah TAG's not done yet - which is why i'm a bit surprised at you guys talking about war wariness like you are. Some other cool tags I requested were specialist yields (so like -1:gold: for priest specialist for anti-clerical for example). Another couple of examples: iAttitudeModifier - which will be a negative for aggressive instead of the crime for instance. iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier which can be used as a negative for certain trait or even positive for traits such as agricultural or cruel.

Here is a more extended list:

Spoiler :

<ElementType name="iCityDefenseBonus" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iStateReligionGreatPeopleRateModifier" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iDistanceMaintenanceModifier" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iNumCitiesMaintenanceModifier" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iCorporationMaintenanceModifier" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iFreeExperience" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iWorkerSpeedModifier" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iImprovementUpgradeRateModifier" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iMilitaryProductionModifier" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iBaseFreeUnits" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iBaseFreeMilitaryUnits" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iFreeUnitsPopulationPercent" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iFreeMilitaryUnitsPopulationPercent" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iGoldPerUnit" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iGoldPerMilitaryUnit" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iHappyPerMilitaryUnit" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="bMilitaryFoodProduction" content="textOnly" dt:type="boolean"/>
<ElementType name="iLargestCityHappiness" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iWarWearinessModifier" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iFreeSpecialist" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iTradeRoutes" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iMaxConscript" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iStateReligionHappiness" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iNonStateReligionHappiness" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iStateReligionUnitProductionModifier" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iStateReligionBuildingProductionModifier" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iStateReligionFreeExperience" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="iExpInBorderModifier" content="textOnly" dt:type="int"/>
<ElementType name="SpecialistType" content="textOnly"/>
<ElementType name="YieldModifiers" content="eltOnly">
<element type="iYield" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="CapitalYieldModifiers" content="eltOnly">
<element type="iYield" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="CapitalCommerceModifiers" content="eltOnly">
<element type="iCommerce" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="SpecialistExtraCommerces" content="eltOnly">
<element type="iCommerce" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="YieldChanges" content="eltOnly">
<element type="iYield" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="SpecialistCommerceChange" content="eltOnly">
<element type="SpecialistType"/>
<element type="CommerceChanges"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="SpecialistCommerceChanges" content="eltOnly">
<element type="SpecialistCommerceChange" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="SpecialistYieldChange" content="eltOnly">
<element type="SpecialistType"/>
<element type="YieldChanges"/>
</ElementType>
<ElementType name="SpecialistYieldChanges" content="eltOnly">
<element type="SpecialistYieldChange" minOccurs="0" maxOccurs="*"/>
</ElementType>
 
Ok. That's a mighty big list so if we can keep it to whatever trait we're modifying currently, having discussed it out to make sure the tag is fully desirable, that'd keep my overall workload manageable enough to keep up with our ongoing audit. The end of my current project is in sight so by the end of Friday, I expect to be able to address a few tags here.

In the meantime, SGT, please post what you feel the 'final' Aggressive workup should be. I understand we'll be defaulting to the version WITH slight negatives for now as that WAS determined to be our direction some time ago so those who really don't like having any negatives will have to wait for us to have the functionality necessary to make it an option (and I know its your personal preference as well and since you have the final say...)

What I (and I think the rest of us as well) need to know (to move on here to a discussion on Aggricultural) is what YOU intend to make Aggressive after all that's been discussed here. So if you'd be so kind as to reply with a workup in this format:
Aggressive (Mostly Positive):
- +25% GG Emergence
- +1 crime / 2 population OR +25% War Weariness incurred during war
- Free Combat I AND Aggressive I (+15% Attack, -10% Defense) for Melee, Gunpowder, Hi-Tech, and Assault Mech Units
- I'm suggesting we change the above to: all Combatant units (requires defining all Combat intended units with the 'Combatant' sub-combat class (as opposed to Civilian))
- Same Production bonuses as current
I'm sure we'd all appreciate it! I guess I'm asking for one last call for feedback to make sure we can all at least come to some, even if reluctant, agreement that its good for now and we can move on. We can work out all the (Without any Negative Elements) versions once we have the option set up.
 
Correct, they were given out with no consideration for the leader's history, instead purely based on the number of of leaders who had each one. It was incredibly tedious to go through them all like I did. If you want list out which leaders need to be changed keeping them at least close to parity in terms of distribution (so we don't have a situation where we have 30 aggressive and 1 scientific like we did before :) ) be my guest. At some point I might do this myself when I have the free time and can be bothered ;)

While I am more than happy to do so, maintaining parity with some of these traits is an unrealistic goal. Very few of the leaders in this game belong to a different ethnicity than the civ they rule over. Saladin and Catherine are the only two examples I can think of which unequivocally fit as "Foreigner". I would personally rather see a situation where only a couple of leaders have the foreigner trait than to have such blatant mismatches as Winston Churchill (Born exactly 1 hour and 27 minutes drive away from London). If that's acceptable, then I will proceed with the list.
 
While I am more than happy to do so, maintaining parity with some of these traits is an unrealistic goal. Very few of the leaders in this game belong to a different ethnicity than the civ they rule over. Saladin and Catherine are the only two examples I can think of which unequivocally fit as "Foreigner". I would personally rather see a situation where only a couple of leaders have the foreigner trait than to have such blatant mismatches as Winston Churchill (Born exactly 1 hour and 27 minutes drive away from London). If that's acceptable, then I will proceed with the list.

I honestly don't think we should bother with this until the traits are sorted out and audited. This is because I suspect we'll end up with the need to go BACK through all the leaders afterwards as some traits might be broken up into more than one, new traits may be designed, and some old ones may not remain. This would be a good 'step II' and probably deserves a second thread to keep this one functional on traits themselves.
 
While I am more than happy to do so, maintaining parity with some of these traits is an unrealistic goal. Very few of the leaders in this game belong to a different ethnicity than the civ they rule over. Saladin and Catherine are the only two examples I can think of which unequivocally fit as "Foreigner". I would personally rather see a situation where only a couple of leaders have the foreigner trait than to have such blatant mismatches as Winston Churchill (Born exactly 1 hour and 27 minutes drive away from London). If that's acceptable, then I will proceed with the list.

Foreigner is not that they are foreigners, its more that they favour foreign affairs perhaps over domestic issues or that they invest time and resources in this area at the cost of other priorities. Other more glaring contradictions in philosophy/attitude such as being labelled cruel or barbaric when in reality they were humanitarians would be a good place to start.

Also the trait descriptions need to be redone too keep in mind, im not sure what they say at this point, they could be completely off and lead to such misunderstanding as foreigner. It could be that some simply need to relabelled, afterall these names (cruel, barbaric, foreigner etc) were just ripped outta wherever it was we got these in the first place. In keeping with our goal of 'accuracy' you might find it more useful (easier) to simply relabel foreigner as something else and if this is the case I'd be happy to change it. I do want to keep parity 'as much as possible', so it doesn't need to be perfect, ie 13, 13, 13, 13 but as long as its not 20, 4, 16, 9, 17, this I don't want. Thanks &#9829;
 
Ok. That's a mighty big list so if we can keep it to whatever trait we're modifying currently, having discussed it out to make sure the tag is fully desirable, that'd keep my overall workload manageable enough to keep up with our ongoing audit. The end of my current project is in sight so by the end of Friday, I expect to be able to address a few tags here.

In the meantime, SGT, please post what you feel the 'final' Aggressive workup should be. I understand we'll be defaulting to the version WITH slight negatives for now as that WAS determined to be our direction some time ago so those who really don't like having any negatives will have to wait for us to have the functionality necessary to make it an option (and I know its your personal preference as well and since you have the final say...)

What I (and I think the rest of us as well) need to know (to move on here to a discussion on Aggricultural) is what YOU intend to make Aggressive after all that's been discussed here. So if you'd be so kind as to reply with a workup in this format:

I'm sure we'd all appreciate it! I guess I'm asking for one last call for feedback to make sure we can all at least come to some, even if reluctant, agreement that its good for now and we can move on. We can work out all the (Without any Negative Elements) versions once we have the option set up.

Aggressive:
- +15% GG Emergence
- Free Combat I AND Aggressive (+10% Strength) for Melee, Gunpowder, Hi-Tech, and Assault Mech Units
- Same Production bonuses as current

I'll just need to make the new promotion (as soon as I get a button for it).
 
I'll just need to make the new promotion (as soon as I get a button for it).

Ah yes... promo graphics. Ok, I'll put the Aggressive Promo (I - III) graphics on my priority list then.
 
I only need one.

Are you saying you're against having an Aggressive II (+15% Attack, -10% Defense) and Aggressive III (+20% Attack, -5% Defense) (totals to +50 Attack, -25% Defense all total) that builds only off of Aggressive I along an Aggressive PromotionLine?
 
Are you saying you're against having an Aggressive II (+15% Attack, -10% Defense) and Aggressive III (+20% Attack, -5% Defense) (totals to +50 Attack, -25% Defense all total) that builds only off of Aggressive I along an Aggressive PromotionLine?

Yes. I have it now as Combat II, but that unlocks so many things that I agree that it is OP. I just want Combat without the unlocking, and I figure it will be fine.
 
Wait... you don't like the +15% Attack -10% Defense idea for that promo???

How do others feel about this? Which would be a better reflection of the Aggressive Trait (in addition to Combat I), a +15% Attack, -10% Defense Promo (which ends up meaning units start for Aggressive Trait Leaders with +25% Attack and 0% Defense modifier) or a carbon copy of Combat I (+10% Combat Modifier) which means units would end up starting for Aggressive Trait Leaders with +20% Combat all around?

I figure at least the first example has a bit more flavor if nothing else.

I don't really care about the extended chain - probably better to wait for Trait Upgrades first anyhow.
 
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