What did you choose to do for this?
Also, I'm going to post the next three trait suggestions soon.
Extra Traits for C2C
- Thread starter strategyonly
- Start date
What did you choose to do for this?
Also, I'm going to post the next three trait suggestions soon.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
It was based on the feedback in the other thread.
Every 3 levels, a leader ALSO chooses a negative trait (except for at the beginning... the first negative trait only waits 2 levels instead.) And the negative trait selection comes up after the positive so for at least the extent of that level the player MUST maintain one negative trait (it can be deselected/overcome when the next level comes up but that does sacrifice a positive trait to do so...)
Have you reconsidered anything regarding the first three traits proposed? I felt they were far inferior to even what we have right now and shared the reasons for that. This is not to say you didn't inadvertently point out to me some of the serious flaws with my own proposal though
Every 3 levels, a leader ALSO chooses a negative trait (except for at the beginning... the first negative trait only waits 2 levels instead.) And the negative trait selection comes up after the positive so for at least the extent of that level the player MUST maintain one negative trait (it can be deselected/overcome when the next level comes up but that does sacrifice a positive trait to do so...)
Have you reconsidered anything regarding the first three traits proposed? I felt they were far inferior to even what we have right now and shared the reasons for that. This is not to say you didn't inadvertently point out to me some of the serious flaws with my own proposal though
OK, here are my next three proposals.
Seafaring:
-Free Seafaring I/II/III promo for Naval Units (+1/2/3 Moves, +10/20/30% Combat)
-+ (1/2/3) Trade Routes per City
-+ (1/2/3)
per Merchant
- - (15/10/5) %
Seafaring (Normal):
-Free Seafaring promo for Naval Units (+1 Move, +20% Combat)
-+ 1 Trade Routes per City
-+ 2 per Merchant
- -10 %
Nomad:
-+ (10/20/30) Free Military Units
-Free Flanking I on all Cavalry Units
-Free Nomad on all Cav, Wheeled, Tracked, and Helicopter units (+1 Move, +10/20/30% City Attack)
- -(20/10/5)% Domestic GG points
- Can Upgrade Units Anywhere
Nomad (Normal):
-+15 Free Military Units
-Free Flanking I on all Cavalry Units
-Free Nomad on all Cav, Wheeled, Tracked, and Helicopter units (+1 Move, +15% City Attack)
- -10% Domestic GG points
- Can Upgrade Units Anywhere
Spiritual:
- + (15/30/45)% GPP
- Reduced Revolt Risk for State Religion (iRevIdxHolyCityGood, fRevIdxGoodReligionMod)
- + (10/20/30)% Production in cities with State Religion (Both Buildings and Units)
- + (1/2/3) Happiness
Spiritual (Normal):
- + 25% GPP
- Reduced Revolt Risk for State Religion (iRevIdxHolyCityGood, fRevIdxGoodReligionMod)
- + 15% Production in cities with State Religion (Both Buildings and Units)
- + 2 Happiness
Seafaring:
-Free Seafaring I/II/III promo for Naval Units (+1/2/3 Moves, +10/20/30% Combat)
-+ (1/2/3) Trade Routes per City
-+ (1/2/3)
per Merchant- - (15/10/5) %
Seafaring (Normal):
-Free Seafaring promo for Naval Units (+1 Move, +20% Combat)
-+ 1 Trade Routes per City
-+ 2
per Merchant- -10 %
Nomad:
-+ (10/20/30) Free Military Units
-Free Flanking I on all Cavalry Units
-Free Nomad on all Cav, Wheeled, Tracked, and Helicopter units (+1 Move, +10/20/30% City Attack)
- -(20/10/5)% Domestic GG points
- Can Upgrade Units Anywhere
Nomad (Normal):
-+15 Free Military Units
-Free Flanking I on all Cavalry Units
-Free Nomad on all Cav, Wheeled, Tracked, and Helicopter units (+1 Move, +15% City Attack)
- -10% Domestic GG points
- Can Upgrade Units Anywhere
Spiritual:
- + (15/30/45)% GPP
- Reduced Revolt Risk for State Religion (iRevIdxHolyCityGood, fRevIdxGoodReligionMod)
- + (10/20/30)% Production in cities with State Religion (Both Buildings and Units)
- + (1/2/3) Happiness
Spiritual (Normal):
- + 25% GPP
- Reduced Revolt Risk for State Religion (iRevIdxHolyCityGood, fRevIdxGoodReligionMod)
- + 15% Production in cities with State Religion (Both Buildings and Units)
- + 2 Happiness
I'm thinking of moving that to Philosophical as a primary, as Spritual needs power space to give religious benefits.
So basically changing them around, moving GP from Philosophical to Spiritual and reduced Anarchy from Spiritual to Philosophical? I'm not sure I see either the point nor any reason for such a cross-over.
I'm pretty sure the reduced Anarchy is a religious benefit too, using the religion as a base to calm the populace and thus reduce the time spent in Anarchy after up-heaving fundamental changes to the society.
Cheers
I'm pretty sure the reduced Anarchy is a religious benefit too, using the religion as a base to calm the populace and thus reduce the time spent in Anarchy after up-heaving fundamental changes to the society.
Cheers
hotrodlincoln
Upasaka
- Joined
- Oct 25, 2010
- Messages
- 248
If it was felt that Nomad was overpowered, I don't think taking away Flanking 1 from Cavalry units was the answer. If anything, the oodles of free promos for recon units (Guerilla 1, Flanking 1, and Speed was the original recon bonuses from Nomad, I believe) should be toned down or removed. Simply by having powerful cavalry units, Nomadic leaders are very, very powerful in the Ancient and Classical eras, but it's otherwise pretty useless in Prehistoric, and from the end of Industrial on to the end.
On an additional note, While Nomad was nerfed, Scientific was made even more powerful.
I honestly don't get what we were going for in the latest round of updates. Scientific was already the most powerful trait in the game, IMHO. I don't think it needed any help.
On an additional note, While Nomad was nerfed, Scientific was made even more powerful.
I honestly don't get what we were going for in the latest round of updates. Scientific was already the most powerful trait in the game, IMHO. I don't think it needed any help.Well, I don't have a much better idea then what I have currently. Spiritual should have the state religion bonuses, and if I give it anarchy limits then it would be overpowered. Do you have another idea for a different trait that could have max anarchy?
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
No. It should be spiritual.
To substantiate this, classically spiritual was always about eliminating (not even reducing but rather flat out eliminating) anarchy time from all changes, be it civic or religious. It doesn't seem to make much sense to have it reduce civic change anarchy times but it certainly does make sense for it to reduce religious anarchy times.
Furthermore, your proposal does not seem to be concerned about balance between traits as much as trying to make sure that traits only use so many given tags. This is going to lead to imbalance in and of itself because the strength of a tag (and its various values) varies GREATLY by the tag. In particular, reducing or even eliminating Religious anarchy means squat in light of many other tags due to the fact that religious anarchy times tend to range from 0 to 3 depending on the civic and gamespeed. By comparison, a Civic change can mean upwards of 6-10 rnds of anarchy based on the same variables.
Attempting to limit the use of tags to so few a number is going to be detrimental to the whole design. Far more important to make sure the traits are balanced to each other so that each leader may have their own differing strengths and weaknesses but are still, nevertheless, equally powerful (with the extra selections one leader may have on Developing Leaders option being the exception...)
This is not an easy task to design these things, I admit, so I'm trying to let others do most of the pointing out of where these proposals have issues but so far I've agreed with every point made.
To substantiate this, classically spiritual was always about eliminating (not even reducing but rather flat out eliminating) anarchy time from all changes, be it civic or religious. It doesn't seem to make much sense to have it reduce civic change anarchy times but it certainly does make sense for it to reduce religious anarchy times.
Furthermore, your proposal does not seem to be concerned about balance between traits as much as trying to make sure that traits only use so many given tags. This is going to lead to imbalance in and of itself because the strength of a tag (and its various values) varies GREATLY by the tag. In particular, reducing or even eliminating Religious anarchy means squat in light of many other tags due to the fact that religious anarchy times tend to range from 0 to 3 depending on the civic and gamespeed. By comparison, a Civic change can mean upwards of 6-10 rnds of anarchy based on the same variables.
Attempting to limit the use of tags to so few a number is going to be detrimental to the whole design. Far more important to make sure the traits are balanced to each other so that each leader may have their own differing strengths and weaknesses but are still, nevertheless, equally powerful (with the extra selections one leader may have on Developing Leaders option being the exception...)
This is not an easy task to design these things, I admit, so I'm trying to let others do most of the pointing out of where these proposals have issues but so far I've agreed with every point made.
MaXimillionZero
Warlord
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2010
- Messages
- 205
Not sure whether it would be a bit underpowered, but it would make sense if these only applied to coastal cities. (Or coastal and with river access, if we had that tag).
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I didn't add a tag for only coastal cities to expand trade routes BUT I have just added a number of new tags. That's not a bad idea though... wish I'd thought of it before I finished up this new round of tags I'm soon to commit to the SVN tonight. As it is, it'll have to wait a bit before I will return to do more.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Update: Some things came up and I discovered an odd bug I'll need more time to resolve... not a serious one but enough to annoy me and keep me from updating the SVN tonight. Sorry for that delay. Tomorrow night I'll at least try to post what the new tags are to give y'all a heads up.
sounds good thx
If Thunderbrd makes that tag great, and then I could also increase the trade routes to balance things.
OK, I can live with Max Anarchy of 4 turns on Spiritual. Does that sound reasonable?
@sgtslick: Could we please not start redoing the actual trait statistics until after V28? I ask just because I'd like to have something in the release that is reasonably balanced and tested, and I still have a lot more traits to post my proposals for.
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Not really. IMO we shouldn't use Max Anarchy at all. It doesn't scale well between gamespeeds. Thus the ReligiousAnarchyModifier tag is able to reduce (or increase) by a percentage adjustment which naturally scales the anarchy times. Additionally, MaxAnarchy applies to both types and I don't see much cause for that in any trait structure.
We still got 2 weeks, ask later. I think we'll be fine though, even if its not completely finished that won't be the end of the world.
strategyonly
C2C Supreme Commander
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
I thought that was 21 Dec 12??
Yeah... well... since we're still here... apparently not
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
Ok, here's the full traits tag set with examples. I fixed the bug I had but now I have to take a bit of careful time merging into the most updated version of the current SVN before I can commit and I probably won't have much more time for that tonight. But as promised, here's what we have so far. Almost all of these are tags used elsewhere like buildings and such but there ARE a couple that haven't been used anywhere else in the game at this point, particularly:
The rest are from elsewhere so if you have any further questions I'm happy to answer them for you. You can also use these templates for a test, assign them to a leader and look up that leader in the civilopedia to see how they express themselves in the trait description.
So here you go:
- DisallowedTraits - Allows you to designate traits that become impossible to select if the leader already possesses this trait.
- TechResearchModifiers - Allows you to establish particular techs and the increase or decrease in research % while researching that tech. Some traits could identify a few techs that the civilization finds easier to research and a few that are harder to research. I thought this would be another neat way to enhance the flavor and game effect focii of our traits.
The rest are from elsewhere so if you have any further questions I'm happy to answer them for you. You can also use these templates for a test, assign them to a leader and look up that leader in the civilopedia to see how they express themselves in the trait description.
So here you go:
Spoiler :
Thunderbrd
C2C War Dog
So, to summarize more clearly, the new trait tags are as follows:
- DisallowedTraitTypes
- LessYieldThresholds
- SeaPlotYieldChanges
- DomainFreeExperiences
- DomainProductionModifiers
- TechResearchModifiers
- iEspionageDefense
- iMinAnarchy
- iMaxTradeRoutesChange
- iGoldenAgeDurationModifier
- GreatPeopleUnitClass
- iGreatPeopleRateChange
- iHurryAngerModifier
- iHurryCostModifier
- iEnemyWarWearinessModifier
- iForeignTradeRouteModifier
- iBombardDefense
- iUnitUpgradePriceModifier
- bAllowsInquisitions
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