ExtraModMod

[Terkhen]

I actually just tried it, and it seems to work.

I have been testing your changes in a local merge. Everything seems to work fine ingame with most great people, but I was not able to test how Great Generals behave because after the merge they no longer appear when the Great General counter reaches zero... it can even reach negative values. When I go back to a revision before the merge of your GP_NAMES change, they can appear again. Can you confirm if this issue happens for you too in MNAI with Advanced Tactics enabled?

There are several side-effects; great people not created via CvPlayer::createGreatPeople() will not get a random name.

In ExtraModMod's case, I also had to add Adventurer generation. I tried to switch their creation to use the createGreatPeople method (luckily it is exposed to python) and they worked fine; the popups appear and they get the hero AI correctly.

I thought about that, too; but it would also require a new parameter in CvUnit and I think it could have larger side-effects or provoke mistakes, because a modder expects unitCreated to be fired every time a unit is placed on the map.

That's true, I did not think about modding. It's better to not mix stuff

As I said, I did that for the commander. You merged the two, right? So you use the General "lead troops as a warlord" action and not the commander spell? If so, my solution (in the second revision) won't work; you'd have to do that variable and expose at least a getter to python, since "split general" is a spell.

I was using the lead action, but in my current local merge I switched back to use a spell. I lose the fancy great general animation, but I was thinking on doing this already because the action failed to show the animation already when the great general did not have the right art.

Tried it last weekend, but we couldn't get it to work in multiplayer. No LAN games were shown from each other. We just copied the new version over the old one which was working. We checked the folders from both computers and both were identical.
When we went back to the old version by using a backup copy we could play without problems again. No idea what's causing the problems.

It's better to always apply ExtraModMod over a clean installation, otherwise you may get weird problems. I keep a clean backup in case I mess up while copy pasting development versions of ExtraModMod. Usually nothing happens, but sometimes you get weird bugs. I'm glad that you got it working

I would recommend changing the 'Organized' w/ Cassiel to something else ...

say Cultural, Ingenuity, Agrarian, back to Industrious perhaps, maybe even Sage even though it overlaps with Philosophical.

Something other than Organized ... b/c Organized is just completely useless in the first 75 turns (and doesn't really fit in with Grigori lore any more than cultural would)

Since you can get high upkeep civics like God King early, I wouldn't say that it is entirely useless. I agree that it does not fit their lore much, though. Creative sounds fine but I would like to get more opinions about this before we decide on a change

 

[lfgr]

I have been testing your changes in a local merge. Everything seems to work fine ingame with most great people, but I was not able to test how Great Generals behave because after the merge they no longer appear when the Great General counter reaches zero... it can even reach negative values. When I go back to a revision before the merge of your GP_NAMES change, they can appear again. Can you confirm if this issue happens for you too in MNAI with Advanced Tactics enabled?

It works for me.
I indeed got the negative value when I worldbuildered me some units to do combat, but I forgot to settle before attacking and generating GG points. But after placing a city and the next combat, I got a GG and everything went on correctly.
I also tried with a city from the beginning. Maybe you forgot to place a city, too?

 

[ArkhanTheBlack]

It's better to always apply ExtraModMod over a clean installation, otherwise you may get weird problems. I keep a clean backup in case I mess up while copy pasting development versions of ExtraModMod. Usually nothing happens, but sometimes you get weird bugs. I'm glad that you got it working

Nah, we just used the old version again. But using a clean FFH2 as a base is a good idea since it's definitely possible that the old and new versions got mixed up and caused the problems. We'll try it at our next LAN session again. I'm pretty sure we get it working then.

 

[Terkhen]

It works for me.
I indeed got the negative value when I worldbuildered me some units to do combat, but I forgot to settle before attacking and generating GG points. But after placing a city and the next combat, I got a GG and everything went on correctly.
I also tried with a city from the beginning. Maybe you forgot to place a city, too?

It was an error created by me while removing the lead mission from Great Generals. I assumed that the Great General code in the DLL worked using unit classes directly, but instead it checks for units that can use the "give XP to units" and "lead units as a warlord" missions. If you have neither, the generation will not happen. I just hacked the "lead units as a warlord" mission away in the DLL and marked Great Generals again as a unit that gives a Leader promotion. Everything seems to be working correctly now, thanks!

Since my current development version already includes fixes to all known issues, I'm going to play a long test game now. As I mentioned before you can expect a new release later this week so I would appreciate any feedback before that.

 

[lfgr]

I played a couple of games. I hadn't any issues, and I appreciated most changes I noticed (f.e. the +1 from Religion + Pagan Temple).

However, I think it is a bit strange that Paramanders cannot use weapons and are only 6/8. Soldiers of Kilmorph with Mithril weapons are actually better and cheaper (8/8; but have no medic and dragon slaying, of course).
On the other hand, maybe Paramanders are a bit early at Arete.

 

[scutarii]

Are you going to add platy's worldbuilder, especially edited version by magister cultuum?

 

[Terkhen]

I played a couple of games. I hadn't any issues, and I appreciated most changes I noticed (f.e. the +1 from Religion + Pagan Temple).

Thanks for the feedback

However, I think it is a bit strange that Paramanders cannot use weapons and are only 6/8. Soldiers of Kilmorph with Mithril weapons are actually better and cheaper (8/8; but have no medic and dragon slaying, of course).
On the other hand, maybe Paramanders are a bit early at Arete.

Good catch! That issue also seems to be present in EitB v9. Since both Soldiers of Kilmorph and Paramanders are meant to be replacements to the units in the melee line added as an extra to the Runes of Kilmorph research line, they should not be noticeably better than them IMO. Maybe a good solution to this would be to allow Soldiers of Kilmorphs to use only bronze weapons and Paramanders only bronze and iron (not mithril). What do you think?

Are you going to add platy's worldbuilder, especially edited version by magister cultuum?

Tholal is doing merges of MagisterCultuum's adaptation of platy's world builder periodically into More Naval AI. Since ExtraModMod includes MNAI, each version of ExtraModMod will include the version of world builder that happens to be merged in MNAI's development version each time. In ExtraModMod 0.3.1 case, it will include the WB version of 16/07/2013 which I think is not the latest version updated by MagisterCultuum to the MNAI thread.

 

[Tasunke]

I think Soldiers were originally 4 w/ metals and Paramanders were originally 7 str w/o any metal upgrades.

Crusaders were brought down to 6 str (iirc) but with access to metal upgrades.

I think Paramanders at 6/8 with crusaders at 7 or 8 depending on metal capacity seems fitting, although perhaps a bit odd at first glance. Arete gives the Kilmorph guy Iron early, (with the wonder).

A few options are

1) Make soldiers of kilmorph never obsolete. (which may already be the case?)

2) move the Iron giving wonder to Smelting (or have it require both Arete + Smelting)

3) bring Paramanders to 6 str and have em use metal weapons

Personally I think either options 1 or 2 would be preferred, but that is just me ^_^

 

[Terkhen]

1) Make soldiers of kilmorph never obsolete. (which may already be the case?)

Indeed, that is already the case, both in MNAI and ExtraModMod.

2) move the Iron giving wonder to Smelting (or have it require both Arete + Smelting)

Making the Mines of Gal-Dur require both Smelting and Arete makes a lot of sense IMO. That wonder is something that everyone who follows the Runes wants to build, and along with Paramanders it allows the player that builts it to enjoy the benefits of the iron working tech subtree without researching it. Since I prefer not to modify Paramander's base strength I favor this solution.

 

[lfgr]

Making the Mines of Gal-Dur require both Smelting and Arete makes a lot of sense IMO. That wonder is something that everyone who follows the Runes wants to build, and along with Paramanders it allows the player that builts it to enjoy the benefits of the iron working tech subtree without researching it. Since I prefer not to modify Paramander's base strength I favor this solution.

Yeah, in my last Khazad game I got the Mines quite Early; It was 7-Strength Axemen (4+Iron+GG) against some warriors.
Limiting Soldiers of Kilmorph to worse Weapons was indeed my initial thought, too.
But I'm really not enough in that balance stuff to really help here.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Why make it have smelting?
The whole point is to stop the expensive tech requirement in return for a expensive building (wonder), this removes that.
I think these observations are based off a SP not MP point of view, where it is easy to take advantage of early iron units with weak opposition.
I really don't think you should let Paramanders use metals, I don't think SoK should be allowed past iron though. Allowing str 8/10 units that early would really alter game balance, even if you make the move to smelting.
Also: SoK are axemen equivalents, so it makes no sense to allow them mithril when their compatriots are not. It also makes the game balance odd in where certain portions of the military are being upgraded irrespective of their place in the tech tree (the senior unit, the paramander, is not being improved by MW where its junior is).

 

[Tasunke]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Interesting points Qgqqqqqq, but I think moving it to smelting might be worthwhile. I think having custom maps where everyone has equal access to resources might be clouding your judgement somewhat with this.

Granted, having SoK not take Mithril should definitely be added.

In EitB at least, Ironworking is much more expensive than smelting, therefore the wonder could still potentially be useful. If it bothers you, perhaps we should lower the hammer cost slightly if we bring it up to Smelting?

 

[akatosh]

I agree with Q, the whole point of teching Arete is to get the Mines. The whole point of the Mines is access to very early iron, and you have to sink a ton of hammers to get it. To actually use the iron you still have to build a training yard and axemen, or you have to use the hammer-inefficient SoKs.

 

[Tasunke]

Well, my main proposition is that we do NOT allow for 8/10 Paramanders running around

I'd suggest SoK's remaining at maybe just bronze + iron, with SoKs not using metals at all.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

No, none of that would work.
The whole point is investing a ton of hammers for not needing to research that part of the tree. Arete is pretty sucky otherwise too.

 

[Tasunke]

You must be referring to post 192.

In any case, I still think Smelting is a possibility but I've already said what is more important to me (6/8 paramanders not having access to metals)

Also, perhaps SoKs shouldn't upgrade into anything ..... (or, perhaps upgrading into Champions, rather than Paramanders. Would make more sense).

My final analysis.

Paramanders remain unchanged (6/8) no metals, and upgrade into Paladins

SoKs use only copper and iron, and upgrade into Champions (but never obsolete, as is current)


---> These changes will not require any changes to the Mines of Galdur (any such changes could be analyzed and pursued upon independent grounds)

 

[Terkhen]

What feels like a real issue to me is that we have a unit (Soldier of Kilmorph) that can use all metals and which can be upgraded to a unit which can't use metals at all (Paramander).

The mines idea was just meant for balancing a possible usage of metals by Paramanders. In my opinion the mines have a different list of issues (they are a "only option" wonder; the wonder is so powerful that anyone who researchs Arete and fails to get the mines will be at a huge disadvantage because of all the research invested and "lost") but balancing that is out of the scope of this mod.

The idea of breaking the SoK -> Paramander upgrade seems like a good alternate solution too. 6/8 without metals feels a bit weak to me, but since Arete is relatively cheap it may be just right

 

[Terkhen]

I had another idea for solving this issue. Paramanders could be dropped to 4/6, be allowed to use bronze and iron weapons and get the "Iron Weapons" promotion for free, leaving them at their default 6/8. This would allow to let SoK upgrade to Paramanders without the problems mentioned before, it does not increase the base combat strength of Paramanders, would let players who follow RoK and researched Arete a way to get units with iron weapons if they failed to get the mines and it would also remove the weirdness of having one of the staple units of RoK uncapable of using metal weapons. What do you think?

Edit: Sorry about the double post.

 

[scutarii]

I had another idea for solving this issue. Paramanders could be dropped to 4/6, be allowed to use bronze and iron weapons and get the "Iron Weapons" promotion for free, leaving them at their default 6/8. This would allow to let SoK upgrade to Paramanders without the problems mentioned before, it does not increase the base combat strength of Paramanders, would let players who follow RoK and researched Arete a way to get units with iron weapons if they failed to get the mines and it would also remove the weirdness of having one of the staple units of RoK uncapable of using metal weapons. What do you think?

Edit: Sorry about the double post.

Good idea and please, remove mithril weapons from axemen. axemen already cost 45 - too cheap units worth of precious mithril. There are surely other reasons like...gimme a good reason to build champions....

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

shouldn't stone get enabled with masonry rather than mining? also it should probably give +1 hammer unimproved like marble does instead of 2

I'd also remove the stone bonus from the governor manor since it's uber already and the regular courthouse gets no such bonus ( it might fit the sculptor's studio though )

how come the mithril golem is 400 hammers and the meshabber is still 1200? I know it's an eitb change but the extreme difference is jarring.

please restore blinding light to immobileturns 2 so it can be used in SP, the doubled resist modify should nerf it enough already. or just change it to work with promotions like in essentials

could you reintroduce automated spellcasting? that's awesome to reduce excessive micromanagement particularly in MP

it would be great to merge EitB nox noctis when you have time for it

also it seems the tower of mastery and final altar are still wonders? making them rituals is a nice eitb balance tweak that should have been merged imho