ExtraModMod

[Qgqqqqq]

Shepherds=sepheres btw

 

[Terkhen]

In my experience ANY human army becomes a catwalk once it gets going, no more so for the. luchuirp then the amurites, vampires or infernal.

As Qgqqqqq said, you could say the same thing about Keelyn with puppet spam, Calabim with a bunch of Vampires, Elves with cottages and Ancient Forests everywhere, anyone with Sacrifice the Weak, Ritualists, and Beasts of Agares, etc. The AI just can't stand up to the late game toys, whatever flavor of toys you prefer.

It is not my goal to try to balance the game against AI opponents. I don't think that would be really achievable. What worries me is multiplayer balance

Speaking of which I made a balance suggestion fir the infernal (at RB) a while ago - basically the idea is that the amount of manes/ settlers hyborem starts with scale with the average size of civilizations.

Sounds interesting, I'll consider it.

Is this mostly based on MNAI?

It is built on top of More Naval AI. I plan to keep helping with helping with bugfixes and tweaks in MNAI instead of duplicating work for everyone, for example. I'll also update regularly against specific revisions of MNAI (I forgot to mention this time, I'm using r1299).

If so, the dovellio leaders need a boost and flauros should be org/cre. Order/CoE need a boost and nox nocitis a nerf. Calabim also need a nerf as does keelyn.

I'm reluctant to change default leaders; I can consider it for the "completely useless" cases (for example, no one would choose Garrym before the change) or any "completely overpowered" case that I may not be aware of. The guys at EitB have discussed Keelyn and they are considering giving puppets the SPECIALUNIT_SPELL promotion to prevent the usual problems with Summoner. I could adopt this change too if deemed necessary (no one in my usual group plays Balseraphs so I have not really tested her). I'm not aware about the issues with the other things you mention, so I would need a longer explanation to discuss them.

Can you go through and explain some of these changes (Lucian, extra resources, "balance adjustments" etc.)?
It's hard to know why/what has been done, (a change log would be awesome ).

Every change in the mod is described in the readme file. You can download it here:

https://bitbucket.org/Terkhen/extramodmod/downloads

I plan to move it to a wiki when I get time.

 

[Tasunke]

Yeah id do 95, but don't understand why raging seas needs such a boost (?) that's always been my least fu. part of it.
Agree with Doug.

You misread me.

Raging Seas got both a buff and a nerf. The nerf is ... it can't insta-kill things anymore. The buff? It will destroy more enemy improvements. Makes it far less of an 'fu' imho, as its ultimate 'killing power' utility has been removed. The improvements destruction is to make the world spell still matter. (Especially if non-lanun can build coves too ... )

 

[Qgqqqqq]

FYI that's my least favorite part of your mod (never played OC) - it needs the lanun WAY too much.
Raw financial is OP on calabim, see PBEM2 at RB. Calabim is OP to, I'd advise EitB changes there.
That fix is (IMO) ness scary for keelyn
Luchuirp are too weak ATM, reference RB PBEMs 2, 4(?) & 12 (read bobs 12 thread for a good explanation). Dovellio leaders ARE completely useless

 

[akatosh]

Luchuirp are a mid-tier civ. They definitely don't need a nerf. If anything, I'd like to see more unique buildings based on mana. Water mana gives golems water walking, earth mana gives +20% strength, etc.

In my view the Doviello are actually fine, especially as Mahala. The only tweaks they need are 1) beastmasters not obsoleting and 2) a cost reduction on battlemasters.

The biggest change this game really needs is a nerf to the Governor's manor. That's gotta be the most overpowered building in the game. Given that you can spam it, well...

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

there's a changelog included in the download

 

[Tasunke]

Do u mean beastmen not obsoleting? Then yes.

I think Charadon as Agg/Cha/Barb is fine

as well as Mahala being Exp/Rai/Ing

 

[Qgqqqqq]

I can't download the change log (on phone) could you explain the ones I asked about?

 

[Terkhen]

Raw financial is OP on calabim, see PBEM2 at RB. Calabim is OP to, I'd advise EitB changes there. That fix is (IMO) ness scary for keelyn Luchuirp are too weak ATM, reference RB PBEMs 2, 4(?) & 12 (read bobs 12 thread for a good explanation).

For balance requests, I would appreciate an explanation of what is wrong and what happens usually. Otherwise I'll be a bit lost because I can't follow the discussion. I'll check the threads you mention when I have the time, though. What EitB changes with regard to Calabim are you referring to?

Luchuirp are a mid-tier civ. They definitely don't need a nerf. If anything, I'd like to see more unique buildings based on mana. Water mana gives golems water walking, earth mana gives +20% strength, etc.

Okay, Luchuirp not needing this change seems to be the general consensus. I created a issue so I don't forget to remove this for the next version. The buildings you mention sound interesting but I would need art for them

Dovellio leaders ARE completely useless

In my view the Doviello are actually fine, especially as Mahala. The only tweaks they need are 1) beastmasters not obsoleting and 2) a cost reduction on battlemasters.

I agree with akatosh. In ExtraModMod the Doviello already have the "Never obsolete beastmen" and "Battlemaster cost reduction" balance changes (it seems that you will have Never obsolete beastmen in the next version of MNAI too). Doviello also get the Savage trait which is another push for them. In my test game as the Baron I noticed big changes on how the Doviello play already.

The biggest change this game really needs is a nerf to the Governor's manor. That's gotta be the most overpowered building in the game. Given that you can spam it, well...

How could it be nerfed without removing its special effect entirely? I feel that the Governor's manor is a bit more balanced with Revolutions, though.

Qgqqqqq: This link contains a raw text version of the readme. Mind that it does not read nicely, though.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I like how WM handled the govmanors, i.e. less free hammers below happycap and more free hammers above happycap. this encourages calabim to grow their cities regardless of happycap because angry citizens are still somewhat productive and they can of course be eaten, which makes their playstyle even more unique.

an easy way to do this would be having the govmanor give +2hammer per unhappy pop and -2hammer per happy pop. the net result is you only get hammers from unhappy citizens instead of for each pop point.


for Doviello, you should really consider changing create battering ram from Khazad to Doviello since it would fit them very well and it's useless for Khazad anyway. also, having doviello units steal metal weapons from defeated units would be nice.

for leaders balance, check Eitb which does a pretty good job at that. also civic changes if you haven't already since variety is very lacking in vanilla with uber aristograrianism.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

could animals keep spawning all throughout the game instead of only at the very beginning? I think the animal capture mechanic is underutilized and Wildlands option is not a very good solution as it means early scouting becomes even more suicidal. they only spawn in the fog anyway so with barb cities popping up they'll still be pretty rare!

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Leave GM unchanged (IMO).
Its one of the funnest mechanics if the mod, and not OP.
EitB changes: require training yard (added cost in both hammers/tech), unable to be drafted (actually cost hammers + makes it an investment rather then draft everywhere), spectres spam weakened (check chabgelog but IIRC they lost 2 strength). All this (+generally cheaper techs) only slows the snowball, but that's all that's needed as the strength of calabim wasn't in the strength of their buildup, but in how quickly it got going (spam aristofarms->draft unkillable army).
Agree about animals/civic balance.
I'll shut up about dovellio, maybe I just can't play them right
Thanks ill try read that.

Keelyn is wrong because puppets+summoner = x4 summons.
Check PBEM 7 fir details.
Financial is overpowered on flauros because its normally balanced with a weak civ - somethings the camps aren't even in EitB.
Order is just underwhelming compared to AV, meaning when you have to choose between the two (if playing optimally) you (almost ) always want AV .
We all know why nox nocitis is overpowered (right?).
The gimmicks of CoE aren't enough in MP (or SP. IMO) to outweigh the lack of priests / uniques .

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

spectres lose fear in eitb but strength is unchanged ( they tried removing the affinity but that was too lame )

 

[Terkhen]

I like how WM handled the govmanors, i.e. less free hammers below happycap and more free hammers above happycap. this encourages calabim to grow their cities regardless of happycap because angry citizens are still somewhat productive and they can of course be eaten, which makes their playstyle even more unique.

an easy way to do this would be having the govmanor give +2hammer per unhappy pop and -2hammer per happy pop. the net result is you only get hammers from unhappy citizens instead of for each pop point.

Leave GM unchanged (IMO).

I'll play a test game as Calabim to see how it plays. The last time I played them I did not notice the Governor's Manor being too overpowered, though.

for Doviello, you should really consider changing create battering ram from Khazad to Doviello since it would fit them very well and it's useless for Khazad anyway. also, having doviello units steal metal weapons from defeated units would be nice.

In one of my previous posts in which I detailed the Doviello additions I forgot to mention that the Doviello are also getting a +1 food on tundras and +1 food on ice. IMO, the Doviello are already getting many things already. From what I know about the Doviello, they do not seem to very inventive (see for example the War Machine pedia entry) so I don't think that creating siege tools on the spot fits them. I do like the weapon stealing mechanic, though

for leaders balance, check Eitb which does a pretty good job at that. also civic changes if you haven't already since variety is very lacking in vanilla with uber aristograrianism.

Leave GM unchanged (IMO).
Its one of the funnest mechanics if the mod, and not OP.
EitB changes: require training yard (added cost in both hammers/tech), unable to be drafted (actually cost hammers + makes it an investment rather then draft everywhere), spectres spam weakened (check chabgelog but IIRC they lost 2 strength). All this (+generally cheaper techs) only slows the snowball, but that's all that's needed as the strength of calabim wasn't in the strength of their buildup, but in how quickly it got going (spam aristofarms->draft unkillable army).
Agree about animals/civic balance.
I'll shut up about dovellio, maybe I just can't play them right
Thanks ill try read that.

Keelyn is wrong because puppets+summoner = x4 summons.
Check PBEM 7 fir details.
Financial is overpowered on flauros because its normally balanced with a weak civ - somethings the camps aren't even in EitB.
Order is just underwhelming compared to AV, meaning when you have to choose between the two (if playing optimally) you (almost ) always want AV .
We all know why nox nocitis is overpowered (right?).
The gimmicks of CoE aren't enough in MP (or SP. IMO) to outweigh the lack of priests / uniques .

Given than most balance suggestions point to EitB I'm thinking that it would probably be better to just merge EitB into ExtraModMod. There is no need to duplicate work when they are already doing a great job at balancing. That way, we would only need to consider balance issues related to ExtraModMod additions. I'll have to check why EitB does some of the changes I don't understand from a balance-wise point of view, though. See this issue for details.

could animals keep spawning all throughout the game instead of only at the very beginning? I think the animal capture mechanic is underutilized and Wildlands option is not a very good solution as it means early scouting becomes even more suicidal. they only spawn in the fog anyway so with barb cities popping up they'll still be pretty rare!

As long as it is a game option I wouldn't mind this addition.

 

[Tasunke]

hmm ... I guess I like the solution of just removing 'fear' from Spectres. Makes Wraiths a bit more unique.

 

[lfgr]

I agree, arcane lore should be enough IMO.

I'm curious; which modcomp were you removing?

Since I always play singleplayer: The kuriotates deactivation and the sheaim and luchuirp balance changes we are disussing about.

or (my prefered) bowyers (it might seems illogical, but it is not !! bowyers is about advanced ranged combat, and fireballing golem IS advanced ranged combat for luirchips...
AND IIRC bowyers is most un-usefull for luirchips... and this would render it useful.)

I like that one. Nightwatch is the only thing luchuirps can get from bowyers, right?

 

[akatosh]

Leave GM unchanged (IMO).
Its one of the funnest mechanics if the mod, and not OP.

....

I'll shut up about dovellio, maybe I just can't play them right
Thanks ill try read that.

Re: governor's manors, I agree with you that it's a very fun mechanic. My issue is that I don't think there is any other building in the game that 1) unlocks at a crucial tech 2) 2 of the civ leaders can build at half price and 3) provides +10 for most cities and often +20 by the late game. In some ways this is even better than elves' ability to build in forests.

For a nerf, +2 per unhappy and -2 per happy might be going a little too far. You'd need very big cities for this to have a measurable impact. Maybe that's what you're going for though. Perhaps just scaling it down? Like +1 per 2 unhappy citizens?

Re: Doviello, Qgqqqqq, you might check out Horatius' AAR testing Doviello on MNAI. Senethro also has a good post on them in the Top Ten Tips thread with a little bit different take--going horse archers and OO.

In my view Doviello's biggest weakness is their starting tech penalty. You really feel it on higher difficulties. Would it be nice if Mahala had a third trait? Sure. But I don't think the lack of a third trait is Doviello's biggest problem.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

1h per 2 unhappy would also work if possible, yeah.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

I looked through the change log, don't have time to go through completely, but the leader traits/trait combinations aren't balanced (e.g. defender<protective).

A wacky idea I had for balancing agrarianism - what about if EVERY tile had +1 hammers? Apart from needing to rebalance costs, what would this break?

All in all looks like an interesting mod, and certainly one ill try out

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Oh and whatever you do, don't put blasting workshops at boaters!
That's a massively out of he lines they should be pursuing, arcane lore would be better (but again, no change is nessecary).