ExtraModMod

[Terkhen]

Terkhen, are you planning something for underused civics?

EitB brings changes to many civics. I think that they should make other civics a viable option.

This has been part of MNAI for almost a year now...

Yes, I closed the issue when I noticed

 

[Qgqqqqq]

That's because I've only played EitB until the sg (though I am enjoying more naval for when I want a more challenging sp experience).

How about changing sheelba to something else (like cha/org? Or is that taken), I've always thought that combo was weird on her.

 

[Kiech]

Silly semantics on the Civ traits, as they DO have them, its just not listed as such:

Amurites (No civilization trait)
Balseraphs (No civilization trait)
Calabim (No civilization trait)
Lanun (No civilization trait)
Luchuirp (No civilization trait)
Malakim (No civilization trait)
Mercurian (No civilization trait)
Sidar (No civilization trait)

Amurites: Mana focus
Balseraphs: Puppets
Calabim: Vampiric feeding
Lanun: Seafaring
Luchuirp: Golem Masters
Malakim: Desert Survivalists
Mercurian: Angelic
Sidar: Shades

 

[Terkhen]

That's because I've only played EitB until the sg (though I am enjoying more naval for when I want a more challenging sp experience).

How about changing sheelba to something else (like cha/org? Or is that taken), I've always thought that combo was weird on her.

Sabathiel is Charismatic/Organized. I don't think that Sheelba should be changed, IMHO it is better to just change Averax or to keep him as he is right now.

Silly semantics on the Civ traits, as they DO have them, its just not listed as such:

What you mention are, from a modder's point of view, not traits, in the sense the game gives to the word "trait". A trait is a leader ability. Civilization traits are special traits that are given to any leader of that civilization. The things you mention are a group of civilization specific units, buildings, spells and so on that together conform features specific to each civilization. I was not aiming at making a complete list of all the features of each civilization, we are just discussing trait changes at the moment

 

[A Moon]

The key point on civilization traits is the "Any leader of that civilization". For example:
Decius does not have the Guardsman trait. If Decius is leading the Bannor, he will have the Guardsman trait, because that is the Bannor civilization trait.

It becomes more relevant with the unrestricted leaders options. Then you can see a spiritual Dain leading the Elohim, and such.

 

[Terkhen]

I made a new list of leaders. It includes a "new" trait which is used to reduce the differences between leaders. You can check the list here: https://bitbucket.org/Terkhen/extramodmod/wiki/ExtraLeaders

I have also finished the merge with EitB. You can see the features I selected here: https://bitbucket.org/Terkhen/extramodmod/wiki/EitB

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

it's looking mighty fine, congrats

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

just checked the leader traits, you'll want Cassiel as PHI/CRE since ORG is useless early on

I guess you could also go with Eitb traits over Essentials ones since financial is no longer OP. for Elohim consider SPI/PHI Einion and SPI/ORG Ethne .

you could also buff defensive and reintroduce it for more diversity.

would be great to have Eitb style nox noctis invisibility ( dispellable ) , as well as changing blinding light, entangle and spores so they work correctly for simultaneous MP ( charm person style for example, with an expiring promotion )

oh, and the upcoming eitb fix for keelyn's exponential puppet fuelled summoning. either that, or make her arcane

 

[Doug Piranha]

What about Charismatic instead of Philosophical for Flauros? Philosophical is half a trait for the Calabim, since they can't build half price Elder Councils.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

it's not as good as it is for others true, but half a trait? philosophical is still pretty damn good

 

[Terkhen]

it's looking mighty fine, congrats

Thanks

just checked the leader traits, you'll want Cassiel as PHI/CRE since ORG is useless early on

I think that would make him too similar to Varn on the early game, who gets Creative too.

I guess you could also go with Eitb traits over Essentials ones since financial is no longer OP.

I thought about it, but I think that I prefer the modified Alexis, Flauros, Arturus and Kandros.

for Elohim consider SPI/PHI Einion and SPI/ORG Ethne .

I prefer the EitB ones. I agree that SPI fits the Elohim, but I don't think that it should be in every leader. I also considered the MNAI Essentials change to the civilization trait, but Tolerant is fun to play

you could also buff defensive and reintroduce it for more diversity.

I would prefer to not add many additional traits unless it is not possible to give good combinations to all leaders with the traits we already have. I thought about modifying Defender in the same way than RifE does (City Garrison), but in my opinion Imperialistic is more interesting because it improves a new MNAI mechanic that is not modified by anything else.

would be great to have Eitb style nox noctis invisibility ( dispellable )

I checked this feature while I was reviewing the source changes of EitB. Although it is a nice feature, it would be quite complicated to merge. My head was already spinning from all of the other merges, so I decided to pass on it for now. Since I would like to consider it for future versions, I have created an issue as a reminder about this.

as well as changing blinding light, entangle and spores so they work correctly for simultaneous MP ( charm person style for example, with an expiring promotion )

I don't know this issue. Can you elaborate on the problem?

oh, and the upcoming eitb fix for keelyn's exponential puppet fuelled summoning. either that, or make her arcane

The fix is already included in my merge

What about Charismatic instead of Philosophical for Flauros? Philosophical is half a trait for the Calabim, since they can't build half price Elder Councils.

I don't think that the Elder Council issue is that big. I wonder if it is true anyways that Philosophical is not that great for the Calabim, though. It is not easy to follow a GPP economy when your citizens hate you because of all the feasting.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

re: blinding light et al, they last for x turns. for example 2 turns for blinding light means it's active this turn ( useless in SP ) and the next turn. but when playing simultaneous MP, it becomes twice as effective ( it effectively lasts 2 turns, this one and the next one ) . it's just the mechanic used for blinding lights, entangle ( druids ) and spores ( myconids ) that due to how it works is way more effective in simultaneous turns MP. blinding light is especially bad due to it being widely available, and pretty much needs to be banned from any such games right now.

otoh, if you changed these to work like charm person ( spell adds an effect with x% chance to expire ) , they would be equally effective both in SP and simturns MP

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

also, some changes from Essentials you could consider, from post #1:

3, 9, 10, 11

and from post #12:

23, 26, 27, 30, 32, 34, 35, 36, 43, 44, 47


I believe you have Valledia still at ARC/ORG? she's inferior to Dain especially with the higher bulb priority for Sorcery and Strength of Will, so she does need a boost, either Eitb's Ingenuity or some other weaker trait.

Monks could start with Mobility 1, if you have imported the eitb buffs for paramanders and crusaders, they become even less worth building.


and you could take a look at some of the other modmods like lone wolf's, paradeigma, acetum cucumbis and tweakmod. for example Tweakmod's change to give nomad a small fire resistance to let units walk through flames is pretty cool, especially if obsidian plains are brought back.

oh, and of course the reenabling scoreboard powerratio thingie please

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

a couple more things :

did you check the changelog for upcoming eitb 10? some good changes there, for example hero giving free upgrades for grigori.

did you change mistform AI to animal so they don't choke civs to death?

is passive XP and Sanctuary scaling with gamespeed ( from eitb ) in? that's sweet, would be great to expand it to hero as well ( something like 2 xp on odd turns on quick, 0 xp on odd turns on epic for example ) .

 

[Terkhen]

re: blinding light et al, they last for x turns. for example 2 turns for blinding light means it's active this turn ( useless in SP ) and the next turn. but when playing simultaneous MP, it becomes twice as effective ( it effectively lasts 2 turns, this one and the next one ) . it's just the mechanic used for blinding lights, entangle ( druids ) and spores ( myconids ) that due to how it works is way more effective in simultaneous turns MP. blinding light is especially bad due to it being widely available, and pretty much needs to be banned from any such games right now.

otoh, if you changed these to work like charm person ( spell adds an effect with x% chance to expire ) , they would be equally effective both in SP and simturns MP

Although I missed Spores and Entangle, for spells such as Blinding Light my current solution is to reduce them to 1 turn. IMO they are already annoying enough to give them any chance to continue for multiple turns. I'd like to keep them as one turn only, but I don't know if there is any way to achieve this that works in simultaneous turns MP.

3) Create Battering Ram requires Doviello civilization instead of Khazad

We already discussed this one.

9) Kuriotates and Elohim start with Religion civic, Sidar with Nationhood ( instead of Pacifism )

I'll consider it.

10) Doviello Beastmen can upgrade directly to Battlemasters with Iron Working

I'll wait to see what Tholal decided with regard to this issue. If it is finally fixed in MNAI, I don't need to implement an alternative solution.

11) Goblin Forts no longer start with an archer guardian

Although annoying, I consider that it is not bad to have some permanent menaces around.

23)Axemen/Swordsmen no longer able to get Mithril Weapons

Why the change? IMO it makes sense for them to be able to use Mithril weapons, and they are still inferior to champions.

26)Harpy event changed to give a Great Bard for 50 gold, no unhappiness penalty
27)Removed the version of the Minister Koun event that does not grant a permanent alliance

You may want to suggest those to lfgr for the Events Enhanced ModComp. For now I'm not touching events besides including his ModComp in ExtraModMod.

30)Blur loses defensive strike immunity, Shadowwalk gains defensive strike immunity

What's the reason for the change?

32)Code of Junil gives commander GPP instead of engineer GPP

That change makes sense to me.

34)Lightbringers don't get bad results from tribal villages

Do you mean that they should be like recon units in this regard?

35)Aifon Isle gives water mana, Odio's Prison gives body mana

That's from some ModMod, right? I remember seeing these changes while checking some ModMods and making a note about adding these changes, but it seems that I lost it. I won't forget about it again, but I'll need to check who I should be crediting for this change.

36)Planar Gates are cheaper with Summoner trait

That would just be a penalty to the extra Sheaim leaders I included.

43)Creative gives cheap Theatres instead of Monuments

With the changes of Extra Leaders, Creative doubles the production speed of Theatres already.

44)Expansive gives cheap Smokehouses instead of Harbours

That would make Expansive increase the production speed of the same buildings than Agrarian. In fact, I was considering giving Expansive another building in the place of Granaries.

47)The Draw requires Shamain, and Winterborn gives +25% vs Frostling racial

I have some changes in mind for the Illians rituals, which sadly require a port of MultiBarb to MNAI. I may have time to try this again next summer.

I believe you have Valledia still at ARC/ORG? she's inferior to Dain especially with the higher bulb priority for Sorcery and Strength of Will, so she does need a boost, either Eitb's Ingenuity or some other weaker trait.

I made a note to give her Ingenuity.

Monks could start with Mobility 1, if you have imported the eitb buffs for paramanders and crusaders, they become even less worth building.

Noted.

and you could take a look at some of the other modmods like lone wolf's, paradeigma, acetum cucumbis and tweakmod. for example Tweakmod's change to give nomad a small fire resistance to let units walk through flames is pretty cool, especially if obsidian plains are brought back.

I'll check them when I have time. I probably won't be bothered with merging big features unless I can compare the mod's code to a known revision of More Naval AI or the changes are clearly indicated in the code. Otherwise, merges become a nightmare.

oh, and of course the reenabling scoreboard powerratio thingie please

Since I usually play with those disabled, I don't know what is the issue. Does not having Advanced Tactics disable the power ratio icons somehow?

 

[Terkhen]

did you check the changelog for upcoming eitb 10? some good changes there, for example hero giving free upgrades for grigori.

The Lichdom requirement, minor leader alignment, Grigori Tavern cost, Mud Golem cost and Pillar of Fire changes are included. How does that hero change works?

did you change mistform AI to animal so they don't choke civs to death?

is passive XP and Sanctuary scaling with gamespeed ( from eitb ) in? that's sweet, would be great to expand it to hero as well ( something like 2 xp on odd turns on quick, 0 xp on odd turns on epic for example ) .

These sound like bugs that should be fixed in MNAI to me.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

re: blinding light. did you just keep the current mechanic and change duration to 1? I think that will make it useless for non simultaneous turns ( including SP ) though, since they can't move anyway while it's active.

re: no mithril axes. with mithril they become strictly better than champions, due to much cheaper cost and small strength difference. you could consider letting pyre zombies use mithril since they lack t3/t4 melee.

re: blur/shadowalk. shadowwalk is useless since no one builds walls etc anyway. blur on the other hand is excellent. seems right to make the more uncommon ability ( DS immunity ) at t2 to balance em out.

re: lightbringers. yes, makes them a good but expensive scout with spiritual. mostly a flavour change.

re: aifon isle/odios prison. it's from Pazyryk's unique features plus: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=368642
excellent module, consider merging it alongside with the tower of eyes UF

re: planar gates. just give them a price discount a la eitb then, they're way too expensive for what they do.

re: expansive. cheap lighthouses and harbours would work, with something else for Organized instead.

re: powerratio. if you're using advanced tactics you can see them with an embassy. if you're not using it, you can't see them ever. since if you don't like that you can just disable it via BUG options, I see no reason for blocking it for everybody.

re: hero free upgrade. it makes the units with hero promotion upgrade to higher tiers for free, which is mostly for grigori adventurers.

 

[scutarii]

defensive trait needs boosting...my idea- -50% from collateral damage - catapults with 60% collateral dmg do only 30%. vs defensive trait.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

you could merge it with vanilla's and give it drill1+city garrison1 to archery units, and it'll be pretty good to have.

 

[Terkhen]

re: blinding light. did you just keep the current mechanic and change duration to 1? I think that will make it useless for non simultaneous turns ( including SP ) though, since they can't move anyway while it's active.

Yes. IMO it is better to have an useless spell than one which can hold one of your stacks in the same place.

re: no mithril axes. with mithril they become strictly better than champions, due to much cheaper cost and small strength difference. you could consider letting pyre zombies use mithril since they lack t3/t4 melee.

re: blur/shadowalk. shadowwalk is useless since no one builds walls etc anyway. blur on the other hand is excellent. seems right to make the more uncommon ability ( DS immunity ) at t2 to balance em out.

I'm not sure about these. I'm going to wait to include any balance changes that do not feel like clear decisions until I see how the game plays with the new balance changes included with the EitB merge. I made a note about both of these issues to check them for the release after the next one.

re: lightbringers. yes, makes them a good but expensive scout with spiritual. mostly a flavour change.

It has been included.

re: aifon isle/odios prison. it's from Pazyryk's unique features plus: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=368642
excellent module, consider merging it alongside with the tower of eyes UF

Nice, thanks

I'll review it for the next release.

re: planar gates. just give them a price discount a la eitb then, they're way too expensive for what they do.

Planar gates do not get a discount in EitB. They cost the same than in MNAI: 300 hammers. I would not like to make them too cheap. What about 200?

re: expansive. cheap lighthouses and harbours would work, with something else for Organized instead.

I settled for Aqueducts and Harbours for Expansive (otherwise Expansive would feel too maritime).

re: powerratio. if you're using advanced tactics you can see them with an embassy. if you're not using it, you can't see them ever. since if you don't like that you can just disable it via BUG options, I see no reason for blocking it for everybody.

Why are they blocked? I remember being able to see them when I played the BAT Mod, it only required enabling an option.

re: hero free upgrade. it makes the units with hero promotion upgrade to higher tiers for free, which is mostly for grigori adventurers.

Interesting. It has been added to the EitB changes.

defensive trait needs boosting...my idea- -50% from collateral damage - catapults with 60% collateral dmg do only 30%. vs defensive trait.

you could merge it with vanilla's and give it drill1+city garrison1 to archery units, and it'll be pretty good to have.

None of the leaders present in the next version of ExtraModMod (except the minor leaders and only when using scenarios) is going to use the Defender trait. Therefore, it does not need any balance changes. As I mentioned earlier, I don't think that it needs more traits either.

I have finished the refactor of the Extra Magic Spheres ModComp into my new source code scheme. It also brings a new spell to replace Unsummon (Dimensional II). You can check the full list of features here:

https://bitbucket.org/Terkhen/extramodmod/wiki/MagicSpheres