I'm aiming for not having a few usable maps hidden between a sea of never used, unsorted maps. As I mentioned in yesterday's edit, (which happened when I realized that MapScripts from the mod itself seem to appear on top) removal was only meant for the case that just pushing them below isn't possible. Given the disparity on MapScript tastes, I'll probably just implement MapScriptTools support for the maps I mentioned earlier, open up the door for anyone implementing support for additional MapScripts and push the others to the bottom of the list.
ExtraModMod
- Thread starter Terkhen
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[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
did you try full of resources? that's also quite nice 
Ok, so I read the description of that mapscripts tool and it sounds incredibly cool for single player. Lost island of Atlantis? Weird areas on the map where elemental nodes meet? Huge swamp? Big rivers? Yes please. I love playing games where exploring different parts of the map is interesting, especially on the no settlers/barbarian world/raging barbs type games.
[to_xp]Gekko;12824251 said:did you try full of resources? that's also quite nice
Although it includes some interesting options, its design approach of including many map generation modes in a single file makes it very complicated to add support to additional MapScripts. MapScriptTools can be added to existing MapScripts, keeping the common functionality in a single place while each MapScript takes care of its own particular features.
I would certainly like to have improved resource and player placement. The balancer included in MapScriptTools is an improvement of the default one and although I have not tested it thorougly, on paper it sounds quite fair. Starting point selection is something for the future.
From what I see on the screenshots, Full of Resources seems to include a huge amount of options. Although this may be great for experienced players, adopting it as the de facto MapScript of the mod would make things harder for beginners.
The unique terrain features is one of its best points in my opinion too. I plan to tweak the appearance of those special features to not make them too common (currently in most games you have at least one huge swamp and one big dent, and usually more) but to still have at least one of them in most games. It would be quite nice to have more types of unique terrain features
The terrain beautifiers like the one for rivers seem to work quite nicely. Erebus looks certainly a lot better with them, and finally having cylindrical and toroidal wrap is great.
My brainstorming about MapScripts can be found here: https://bitbucket.org/Terkhen/extramodmod/issue/164/mapscripttools-notes
I'm writing its contents on a spoiler in this post but don't trust it much because the planned stuff is changing a lot. As you can see, most of my plans aim for adding features specific to a MapScript to all others. Bear in mind that since they have a heavily customized source code, I don't plan to add MapScriptTools support to Erebus Continent and World of Erebus.
Spoiler :
[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
one thing I really like about full of resources is how you can set a minimum distant value from starting plots for lairs and unique features. he also had a plan about adding an "acheron island" which would be awesome
Similar features are implemented in the next version of BarbsPlus. You can't set a minimum distance to lairs yourself, but one is implemented (I think 5 plots for all lairs except barrow), and some unique features will appear only in high wilderness. I don't know how acheron island would work, but in BarbsPlus Acheron can only be built in higher wilderness, which means he will at least more often appear on uninhabited islands.[to_xp]Gekko;12825570 said:one thing I really like about full of resources is how you can set a minimum distant value from starting plots for lairs and unique features. he also had a plan about adding an "acheron island" which would be awesome
Not an option, but it comes with BarbsPlus: High wilderness means generally farer away from starting plots; uninhabited islands (i.e. continents without starting points) have the highest wilderness.
On an unrelated subject, I'd like to suggest the inclusion/adaption of the MountainCoast mapscript, if possible.
EDIT: Sorry, I oversaw MountainCoast is already in.
On an unrelated subject, I'd like to suggest the inclusion/adaption of the MountainCoast mapscript, if possible.
EDIT: Sorry, I oversaw MountainCoast is already in.
Although MountainCoast is included in ExtraModMod, I forgot to mention that it is in the same situation than ErebusContinent and WorldOfErebus. Since it is heavily customized, I won't be adapting it to MapScriptTools in the first batch. Since it is the less complicated one in this list, it has more chances of being adapted in the future.
Since the script would place normal city ruins in ExtraModMod (not the RifE kind), this would be purely cosmetical and would not affect the game much. That's what I thought until Tasunke pointed that you would be able to use Sanctify with them. Therefore, it maybe makes more sense to have them disabled by default.
There are two types of Infernals; the type summoned by way of an infernal "rush" usually with the Lanun beelining, and the type summoned later-game, as part of getting the grimorie. The second will never get to touch the grimorie under the status quo, and the first *is* rather powerful - based off two games (where it is reached) one was won, partly because the map was helpful, and the over lost due to an overpowered opponent and an unfriendly map. The nerf is only relevant to the first, and is appropriate IMO, as it means they can't get tier 4 units ~100 turns in (95 odd turns to summon, 5 turns for a engineer pop to rush them).
I did have a proposal, which hasn't been responded to yet, which was to give infernals a certain number of manes and/or settlers based off the average world population (so that if every civ has 20 cities the infernals don't start with two), which I think would help with scaling their power more.
I don't see how this part is related to reducing their power. I also feel its unnecessary.
----> This is an additional layer of hammers that further delays the onset of the 'Beastappocalypse'. [/quote]
So do the beasts require this? If not, how is it a delay? If so, what is wrong with the EitB proposal? (and more generally, what is gimmicky about the national wonder?)
Too big a nerf to both evil religions.
I need the game in front of me to comment on this.
Agreed, this is why the altars need a repurposing.
[to_xp]Gekko
QCT junkie
wholeheartedly agree with the infernal suggestion, their starting troops need to scale based on how soon they get summoned otherwise balance is out of whack for them. same for the mercurians.
Looked at some of tasunkes issues.
I like the proposed mask change, with the exception that I don't think nightwatchs should get mask.
The proposed changes to sheaim, OTOH, are awful. A str 8 channeling 2 move 1-3 divine hero??? That comes sooner then Hemah or Govannon? And you even want to give it more spells?
The most hilarious part here is sheaim balance was being discussed at RB a couple of days ago, and we brought up Judecca as a example of how not to balance it...
Nyx gate and associated ideas don't work at all thematically at all, and I don't think would be particularly helpful balance wise. Same with Cambion citizens.
I like the proposed mask change, with the exception that I don't think nightwatchs should get mask.
The proposed changes to sheaim, OTOH, are awful. A str 8 channeling 2 move 1-3 divine hero??? That comes sooner then Hemah or Govannon? And you even want to give it more spells?
The most hilarious part here is sheaim balance was being discussed at RB a couple of days ago, and we brought up Judecca as a example of how not to balance it...
Nyx gate and associated ideas don't work at all thematically at all, and I don't think would be particularly helpful balance wise. Same with Cambion citizens.
I think Cambion Citizens would be use
Os Gabella was the Caster Hero, and SHE had paradrop, high withdrawal, and PURE immortality
Judecca doesn't have immortality at all. Furthermore, you could simply suggest that his Tech Req be moved up to Infernal Pact plus Arcane Lore, or Infernal Pact plus Strength of Will.
Perhaps Infernal Pact + Sorcery + Religious Law is best however.
With my as yet-unannounced Nightwatch changes, I believe that Nightwatch units should get mask ... although I see no reason why their current form shouldn't get mask either. Nightwatch units are fairly weak for what they are .... mask would only make them worth building.
However, if you mean that it'd be unfortunate that non Esus players could use the Mask in Nightwatch, well ... I suppose we could tie even the promotion version to the Esus State Religion. However as its a fairly expensive unit, and the Exact SAME cheese can be found in Rathus and Radiant Guards being used by non-Empy leaders, I don't really see the problem.
Cambion Citizens' main goal is additional Blight resistance for Sheaim only, although I can see the non-Armageddon benefits as well. PERHAPS this should be a National Wonder only.
Nyx Gate I already explained ... the Demonic Champions would require 30 AC and 160/180 hammers .... although giving them a National Limit of 4 might be more appropriate. (along with the increased cost and requirements)
Sheaim can already get Succubi quite readily through Planar gates, and they tend to make decent Champion replacements, so IMHO, its not really a thematic shift.
The main question that remains for the Sheaim (other than the perfect Planar Gate cost/benefit), would be whether they should remain without an Immortal, or get the Soul Eater/ Soul Reaver as a level 8 upgrade to their Eater of Dreams archmage .... or if they should get a Demon Lord as a lv6 upgrade to their Succubi and Nyx Soldiers.
Honestly giving the Sheaim a 'Demon Lord' sounds a bit off ... I can see them having lesser demons at their disposal, but not a lord ... meanwhile their archmage unit already is called Eater of Dreams ... so why not have a slightly demonic upgrade into an Eater of Souls?
(I do see an Argument for Demon Lord, so I'll not remove it from the table of course ... but as Infernals will already get a Demon Lord, giving the Sheaim a Soul Reaver would make more sense from a 'Keep Civs Separate' Approach.
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I have a few more ideas, primarily concerning Nyx Gate ... but I shall release these later. For now, I think enabling a situational national limit 'Champion' as well as allowing planar gates to spawn Balors sounds sufficient. With the national limit on the NyxSoldier, I no longer see the need to make Nyx Gate a national wonder, for instance.
Os Gabella was the Caster Hero, and SHE had paradrop, high withdrawal, and PURE immortality
Judecca doesn't have immortality at all. Furthermore, you could simply suggest that his Tech Req be moved up to Infernal Pact plus Arcane Lore, or Infernal Pact plus Strength of Will.
Perhaps Infernal Pact + Sorcery + Religious Law is best however.
With my as yet-unannounced Nightwatch changes, I believe that Nightwatch units should get mask ... although I see no reason why their current form shouldn't get mask either. Nightwatch units are fairly weak for what they are .... mask would only make them worth building.
However, if you mean that it'd be unfortunate that non Esus players could use the Mask in Nightwatch, well ... I suppose we could tie even the promotion version to the Esus State Religion. However as its a fairly expensive unit, and the Exact SAME cheese can be found in Rathus and Radiant Guards being used by non-Empy leaders, I don't really see the problem.
Cambion Citizens' main goal is additional Blight resistance for Sheaim only, although I can see the non-Armageddon benefits as well. PERHAPS this should be a National Wonder only.
Nyx Gate I already explained ... the Demonic Champions would require 30 AC and 160/180 hammers .... although giving them a National Limit of 4 might be more appropriate. (along with the increased cost and requirements)
Sheaim can already get Succubi quite readily through Planar gates, and they tend to make decent Champion replacements, so IMHO, its not really a thematic shift.
The main question that remains for the Sheaim (other than the perfect Planar Gate cost/benefit), would be whether they should remain without an Immortal, or get the Soul Eater/ Soul Reaver as a level 8 upgrade to their Eater of Dreams archmage .... or if they should get a Demon Lord as a lv6 upgrade to their Succubi and Nyx Soldiers.
Honestly giving the Sheaim a 'Demon Lord' sounds a bit off ... I can see them having lesser demons at their disposal, but not a lord ... meanwhile their archmage unit already is called Eater of Dreams ... so why not have a slightly demonic upgrade into an Eater of Souls?
(I do see an Argument for Demon Lord, so I'll not remove it from the table of course ... but as Infernals will already get a Demon Lord, giving the Sheaim a Soul Reaver would make more sense from a 'Keep Civs Separate' Approach.
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I have a few more ideas, primarily concerning Nyx Gate ... but I shall release these later. For now, I think enabling a situational national limit 'Champion' as well as allowing planar gates to spawn Balors sounds sufficient. With the national limit on the NyxSoldier, I no longer see the need to make Nyx Gate a national wonder, for instance.
Tasunke said:
I fixed the quote. If Eidolons and Paladins were returned to Righteousness and Malevolent Designs, and returned to their original strengths ...
then firstly, having those techs require Fanaticism would no longer be a big deal, which would further prevent the beasts ...
and secondly, with Stronger Paladins, Beasts are less of an issue.
Qgqqqq said:
The Natonal Wonder change is a gimmick because it is not meant to be a national wonder. It is too useless by itself to be worth the National Wonder typical cost (assuming a hammer increase), and its too USEFUL as a civ-wide building to be reduced to a National wonder.
I DO think its a bit odd that the Octopus Overlords gain more benefit from Demon Altar than the Ashen Veil though .... I'd prefer that a t2/t3/t4 demon unit be available to the Ashen Veil rather than Octopus Overlords ... in fact for Stygian Guard, assuming not renamed to deep walker, I'd prefer a new race called 'Deep Dweller' or something. It could increase the unit's strength in the sea, if such a change is even needed (Ships aren't that strong in FFH) .... but the again the unit could be made weaker, but then at its current strength (ONLY IN SEA). Just a thought
But instead Veil has an undead unit, which can't make use of Demon Altar (but CAN make use of proposed Agares Shrine), and the Overlords have the only religion specific mass producible demon unit
all non-Sheaim non-Infernal demon units are ... Pit Beast (Summon) not religion specific, Eidolon (limit4) Evil Civs (FoL, Esus, OO, Veil), Stygian Guard (limitless) Octopus Overlords, Saverous (world unit) Octopus Overlords, Mardero (world unit) Ashen Veil, Beasts of Agares (limit4) Ashen Veil, Messhaber of Dis (world unit, 70 AC, massive hammer cost) Ashen Veil
Messhaber of Dis almost isn't worth mentioning, as 99% of games won't see him.
So that leaves Saverous + Stygian guards (limitless and strong), vs Mardero and Beasts of Agares (limit4)
Now I wonder, if a Beast and a Stygian were in a battle, who'd have the higher chances of winning?
ok, now imagine 4 beasts vs 20 stygians
Anyways, Saverous should be 'Demon Possessed' not Demon, and Stygian Guards should be DeepWalker (although Demon marginally fits for their art).
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I can see how limiting Beasts of Agares to a national wonder could limit the speed to which they can get cranked out.
If its Demon Altar, it raises additional issues which may not have been fully thought out, or fully appreciated.
If you tie Beasts to a new National Wonder, it can give additional lateral Utility (maybe even only +4 undead exp, and no additional demon exp) and create even a greater hammer-blockade to the beginning of the Beasts.
----> current cost of Demon Altar (x2) + cost of Agares Shrine = the new hammer blockade
Whereas at EitB, you nerf a decent building, and if you don't increase the cost of the building, the beasts are still built rather quickly. But if you DO raise the cost of the building, you are further nerfing a building that needs no nerf.
The Proposal is to add a new building that can take the hit, while ALSO tying it to demon altar (in the requirements) to increase the hammer blockade.
IMO giving Ivory is fine, although it would be great if Ivory used an icon that could represent both elephant ivory and dragon bones. I would also like a new icon for Copper. If anyone knows of suitable replacements for these icons, please drop me a line
