ExtraModMod

[lfgr]

I wasn't complaining about the icon, but the elephants running around on the tile of the dragon bones. But well, it's really a minor problem.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

wholeheartedly agree with the infernal suggestion, their starting troops need to scale based on how soon they get summoned otherwise balance is out of whack for them. same for the mercurians.

I think Mercurians are fine because they get an ally as well. I mean they COULD be scaled, but its less important.

I think Cambion Citizens would be use

Os Gabella was the Caster Hero, and SHE had paradrop, high withdrawal, and PURE immortality

Judecca doesn't have immortality at all. Furthermore, you could simply suggest that his Tech Req be moved up to Infernal Pact plus Arcane Lore, or Infernal Pact plus Strength of Will.

Perhaps Infernal Pact + Sorcery + Religious Law is best however.

Why let facts in the way of a perfectly good anecdote?
Ok, I realise I made a mistake there, just assumed there weren't two different ones.
Sure it doesn't have immortality and paradrop (WTH were they thinking???) but that doesn't make it un-overpowered! Its still a massive deal for a unit with Channeling III and divine (which is not a hybrid! its just straight better then either) to be available so early. He wouldn't be overpowered if he required Strength of Will, but I'd still think it a stupid unit.

With my as yet-unannounced Nightwatch changes, I believe that Nightwatch units should get mask ... although I see no reason why their current form shouldn't get mask either. Nightwatch units are fairly weak for what they are .... mask would only make them worth building.
However, if you mean that it'd be unfortunate that non Esus players could use the Mask in Nightwatch, well ... I suppose we could tie even the promotion version to the Esus State Religion. However as its a fairly expensive unit, and the Exact SAME cheese can be found in Rathus and Radiant Guards being used by non-Empy leaders, I don't really see the problem.

Its the free one that concerns me.
Giving people a reason to build one is fine, but it should also be aimed at incentivizing the unit, not making free ones thrown into a TT better (which is how I normally get deception ).

Cambion Citizens' main goal is additional Blight resistance for Sheaim only, although I can see the non-Armageddon benefits as well. PERHAPS this should be a National Wonder only.

I think its non-thematic and unnessecary. Blight is a cost of the bargain with hell - the whole point of AV is power...with a cost. To make the AC better for Sheaim, the benefits should be increased, and the costs unmitigated.

Nyx Gate I already explained ... the Demonic Champions would require 30 AC and 160/180 hammers .... although giving them a National Limit of 4 might be more appropriate. (along with the increased cost and requirements)

Sheaim can already get Succubi quite readily through Planar gates, and they tend to make decent Champion replacements, so IMHO, its not really a thematic shift.

Again, its not the actual balance that annoys me (although the whole point is beafed T2 units for no T3), but that its a really silly idea having a gate that leads straight to Nyx, not to mention that if demonic champions exist, they certainly don't exist in Agares Plane.

I fixed the quote. If Eidolons and Paladins were returned to Righteousness and Malevolent Designs, and returned to their original strengths ...

then firstly, having those techs require Fanaticism would no longer be a big deal, which would further prevent the beasts ...

and secondly, with Stronger Paladins, Beasts are less of an issue.

Really weakens the divine line and Hyborem, especially since the divine line is mostly dipped into. Apart from heroes, what is there at Fanaticism then?

The Natonal Wonder change is a gimmick because it is not meant to be a national wonder. It is too useless by itself to be worth the National Wonder typical cost (assuming a hammer increase), and its too USEFUL as a civ-wide building to be reduced to a National wonder.

Why is it not meant to be a National Wonder?
The hammers might not even need increasing (I don't remember the cost) it would just be as much or as little as is needed to nerf the beasts. I'm not sure what you are arguing here...is it current version (useless at any level) or EitB level (which is useful for getting T4 units so IMO worth building in one city).

If its Demon Altar, it raises additional issues which may not have been fully thought out, or fully appreciated.

If you tie Beasts to a new National Wonder, it can give additional lateral Utility (maybe even only +4 undead exp, and no additional demon exp) and create even a greater hammer-blockade to the beginning of the Beasts.

It can. Why does it need to though?

Whereas at EitB, you nerf a decent building, and if you don't increase the cost of the building, the beasts are still built rather quickly. But if you DO raise the cost of the building, you are further nerfing a building that needs no nerf.

The Proposal is to add a new building that can take the hit, while ALSO tying it to demon altar (in the requirements) to increase the hammer blockade.

In what universe is DA useful? You just went through how no units can use it except Eidilons (should be upgraded to) and beasts?
150 hammers is a big increase off a base 480 hammers (for all 4), and if more is needed then just increase it.
How often do you build this building?

 

[Tasunke]

In what universe is DA useful? You just went through how no units can use it except Eidilons (should be upgraded to) and beasts?
150 hammers is a big increase off a base 480 hammers (for all 4), and if more is needed then just increase it.
How often do you build this building?

If I'm infernals, it will be built in every Adept producing city

and the scourge promo works well too

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Ok I missed that. Still, in mods that don't change Hyborem to AGG, I'd rather build mages via Savants.
Still prefer the EitB setup.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Proposal: manes are a 100 hammer unit. This means they can grow pop, if at a high price (probably too high tbh, but I try for caution when proposing changes ).

 

[Tasunke]

Ok I missed that. Still, in mods that don't change Hyborem to AGG, I'd rather build mages via Savants.
Still prefer the EitB setup.

Adepts, Savants ... Demon Altar gives +TWO experience to ALL Infernal unit!!!

and Scourge comes in handy as well.

---------------

I might agree with you on the Cambion Citizens ... I shouldn't necessarily lower their AC effects (except perhaps peace with Barbs accessible only through some pact)

Manes being 100 hammers is fine. I generally prefer having Hyborem and Demon Lords create manes through combat ... but a passive option is fine I suppose. I'll have to think on it.

I think Judecca is a fine unit imho ... if enough people don't like him, I can save him for later I suppose. Personally I wouldn't mind a version that ANY civ can build However I was just trying to get a hero that the Sheaim *could* ressurect if they wanted too ... eventually I'd want the ressurection spell to do at least something for all civs ( other than the Graveyard champion, but its cool that they added that in )

I've slightly altered my vision of Judecca as a result of these conversations and I thank you for it ^_^ ... for now he will remain as a Sheaim (subhero) tied to religion, but at least the idea of the unit itself is more refined.

 

[Terkhen]

I wasn't complaining about the icon, but the elephants running around on the tile of the dragon bones. But well, it's really a minor problem.

The same problem arises with many other Unique Features. In my opinion resources under Unique Features should not appear at all. I have created an issue for this.

With regard to the other proposals mentioned since my last post: I have not played enough with the Infernals to have a strong opinion on these matters.

 

[Tasunke]

@lfgr, when are you going to release the next version of BarbsPlus?

(With Lair Level and the new method of getting spawns vs rewards)


Hopefully before the next EMM is released at the least 6_6

I honestly think we should try getting Sareln to incorporate BarbsPlus into ErebusintheBalance v10 if we can get it good enough

(would a separate version be needed to keep in mind the lack of extra features?) -> ie 3 less spheres

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@Terkhen, EitB is considering the possibility of separating their Grigori's Adventurer counter from the GPP counter as well. Is there any code or advice that you would be willing to give them?

 

[Qgqqqqq]

Err no they're not. EitB is sareln, and he hasn't said anything on the subject, nor do I believe he would believe that a small deviation from base within EitB's brief.
And he's also too busy to do anything anyway.
(And my personal vision has different implementation then what I know of this)

I would rate the chance of Barbsplus making it into EitB as exactly nil.

 

[Terkhen]

@Terkhen, EitB is considering the possibility of separating their Grigori's Adventurer counter from the GPP counter as well. Is there any code or advice that you would be willing to give them?

All of the Adventurer Counter related changes were clearly marked as such in Rise from Erebus source code (from which I took this feature) and also in ExtraModMod source code. Therefore, it would be a relatively painless process to port it to any MNAI based modmod.

If anyone is interested in developing a mod based on ExtraModMod, branching it using Mercurial is a quite simple process which allows you to develop features or make changes in parallel and whenever you want to update with the latest ExtraModMod changes you only need to pull from the ExtraModMod repository.

I would rate the chance of Barbsplus making it into EitB as exactly nil.

I think that he meant the Adventurer Counter, not BarbsPlus. The Adventurer Counter has been rebalanced recently and should work much better, although certainly it hasn't been discussed and reviewed throughly. BarbsPlus, on the other hand, is a recent development and will need testing, feedback and tweaks to be balanced.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

He said both, I was talking about the adventurer counter in the first paragraph, and only noticed the barbsplus suggestion later.

I don't think sareln has any inclination to include new mechanics like the AC, regardless of whether they are a boon balance wise, because of how they affect the base game. BP is even further out of EitB brief.

 

[Tasunke]

Barbs Plus only makes lair exploration a more sensible endeavor!

It adds strategy, flavor, and a more deterministic cost/benefits curve. Current lair exploration mechanics are randomized and vulgar.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

I haven't checked it out in a while, but I'm pretty sure it does waaaay more then that.
And recent games just turn them off anyway.

 

[Tasunke]

What other than a vulgar system leads to the ruining of games due to early player death?

Normal lairs are the worst early game, while barbs us had a superior view of lair scaling

 

[Calavente]

HI
any usable /downloadable version after 0.3.1 ? (like a "beta version")

EDIT: I mean : is there a version compatible with MnAI 2.51 ...?

 

[Terkhen]

HI
any usable /downloadable version after 0.3.1 ? (like a "beta version")

EDIT: I mean : is there a version compatible with MnAI 2.51 ...?

0.3.1 is the last stable version. 0.4.0 is currently not finished, but it is possible to check it out from the repository, compile the DLL and paste the results on top of a existing ExtraModMod installation to play with a development version. It only includes some of the MNAI 2.51 changes, not all of them. Since lately I have nearly no time for development, I cannot give you a time estimate for 0.4.0.

 

[Calavente]

no issue there.
I thought that was somehow the answer... which is worse than what I feared... compile a DLL is currently out of my competency
PS: is there an "easy" way to validate XML files ?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

has the great general become too easy to get with EMM mechanics? I tend to think so, GCC points and free GG from tech were useful before but now they're moot since you'll get plenty of great generals via fighting. I think I'd like to see the combat-gained great generals lose the ability to build a command post, and gain the ability to join the city as a superspecialist giving +1xp instead.

 

[Tasunke]

I tend to agree that normal ways to get GGs have become moot .... but is that completely a bad thing? I think it brings the focus more to the macro ... economy for tech, and GGs for combat (rather than focusing on economy to get GGs) .... it just makes for a different metagame.

That being said, I wouldn't mind a version of EMM that had GGs that were harder to attain, or that had GGs separate from GCs, where the ones from combat had different, perhaps even lesser, functionality.

 

[scutarii]

Blessing spell ( not bless!) - creation III spell - has no on screen effect description, although there is a description in civpedia