ExtraModMod

[[to_xp]Gekko]

is it intended for the mushroom event to be able to spawn on a city tile? looks a bit weird

also, what do you think of changing swordsmen to have +10% vs melee instead of city attack like the axemen do? that would make them a bit different.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

(Mushrooms spawn under city tiles in base FFH2)

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Terkhen, shouldn't the obsidian plains from tweakmod be introduced? otherwise the whole "malakim get fire resistance so they can walk in burning sands" is useless, you'll still never ever allow hell terrain to remove your floodplains. now that hell doesn't even remove forests anymore it seems just unfair for it to have such a devastating effect on desert dwellers.

also it'd be nice if floodplains didn't disappear when settled upon, this would give more flexibility.

what if cities that revolt due to Loki become puppet states? it would be very fitting, often they are in wierd places and hurt Balseraph economy with maintenance.

 

[doktarr]

Is it intended that Repentant Angels have a cost of 240, as opposed to the very low cost of the other angel promos?

 

[Tasunke]

Terkhen, shouldn't the obsidian plains from tweak-mod be introduced? otherwise the whole "malakim get fire resistance so they can walk in burning sands" is useless, you'll still never ever allow hell terrain to remove your floodplains. now that hell doesn't even remove forests anymore it seems just unfair for it to have such a devastating effect on desert dwellers.

also it'd be nice if floodplains didn't disappear when settled upon, this would give more flexibility.

Well, in my modmods I typically remove the Malakim's +1 commerce on desert, and I add +1 food for both Desert and Burning Sands.

Imho both Malakim and Hyborem should have +1 food on Burning Sands, for improvement building purposes.

However, if you are thinking of the riverside desert/floodplains with even more food than before, and if that is your primary concern ... have you considered to have desert just have 1 food by default (like tundra) and have flood plains be 2 food rather than 3? And then, just go into the XML to block some improvements from being built in the desert. (improvements you want to be built in floodplains could just be a copy that requires desert and 2 food, so that it'll only show up on a floodplains tile). --> personally I'd prefer the +1 food for civs, b/c its less drastic imho, but its all about preference (within the meta).

what if cities that revolt due to Loki become puppet states? it would be very fitting, often they are in weird places and hurt Balseraph economy with maintenance.

Only if Puppet States option is selected

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I wouldn't change stuff too much, it's just losing floodplains that's painful and obsidian plains are already ingame, just need to be enabled. Tholal recently changed it so forests become burnt instead of disappearing, this would be similar. perhaps obsidian plains should give 2 food instead of 3?

puppet states and advanced tactics are on by default and Terkhen already said he wanted to integrate it more in the future

 

[Terkhen]

Thanks, added an issue in the events enhanced tracker.

Thank you for looking into this

is it intended for the mushroom event to be able to spawn on a city tile? looks a bit weird

Although I agree that it looks weird, as Qgqqqqq mentioned that is how it works in base FFH2 too. I'm not sure, but maybe in vanilla the mushrooms will not be shown under a city because they are an improvement, but it is shown in EMM because they are a resource. I would love to have a way to hide resources under cities (so it looks more nice) and improvements (so we wouldn't have the weird visualization of unique features that provide mana).

also, what do you think of changing swordsmen to have +10% vs melee instead of city attack like the axemen do? that would make them a bit different.

I don't believe it is intended to have differences between axemen and swordsmen.

Terkhen, shouldn't the obsidian plains from tweakmod be introduced? otherwise the whole "malakim get fire resistance so they can walk in burning sands" is useless, you'll still never ever allow hell terrain to remove your floodplains. now that hell doesn't even remove forests anymore it seems just unfair for it to have such a devastating effect on desert dwellers.

I agree.

also it'd be nice if floodplains didn't disappear when settled upon, this would give more flexibility.

That reminded me of the swamp castle scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. I'm not against the suggestion (you can settle cities in swamps too after all, and the Malakim could use the early buff) but is it possible to build cities on top of features without removing them?

what if cities that revolt due to Loki become puppet states? it would be very fitting, often they are in wierd places and hurt Balseraph economy with maintenance.

I like the idea a lot. It fits the lore, and as you guessed, I like how it integrates puppet states with the rest of the game. Since Disrupt works by injecting your culture into the opponent city, I guess that it should create Balseraph puppet states. I consider this to be a buff to the Balseraphs, for the reasons shown below:

Cons:

• You can no longer use Loki as a tool of early expansion against nearby enemies.
• Weevil, Pickle and Hyde would not be able to use their "steal cities from barbarians earlier than the Clan" gimmick anymore.

Pros:

• You no longer need to pay maintenance costs (which can sometimes be very high).
• You are still hurting your enemy a lot, as he still cannot recover his city without declaring war.
• It would be possible for the Balseraphs to create Puppet States before anyone else.
• Weevil, Pickle and Hyde would be the only leader that is able to create puppet states from barbarian cities.

As a result of this, I'd make each conquered city a different puppet state. These puppet states would also need to have a reduced number of starting units, otherwise the Balseraphs may be able to create large armies using it, and disrupted cities are supposed to be easy to be conquered back in the case of a war.

Is it intended that Repentant Angels have a cost of 240, as opposed to the very low cost of the other angel promos?

I'm unsure about this. ExtraModMod has not modified the cost of any angels WRT vanilla FFH2, but given the low costs of the other promotions, I don't know if this is a vanilla bug or something intended by Kael.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

It seems like the repentant angel cost is a bug, there's no mention of that in the manual and it clashes with the mercurian mechanics.

The random event that allows you to choose between paying gold for a graveyard instead of suffering unhealthiness applies the unhealth to ALL cities, imo it should only apply to the one city the event is triggering in.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

That reminded me of the swamp castle scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail. I'm not against the suggestion (you can settle cities in swamps too after all, and the Malakim could use the early buff) but is it possible to build cities on top of features without removing them?

Do you mean to have the tile be 3f base? I'd be against this personally. (Floodplains areas are very food-rich and don't need the boost. Also there exists a bit of a balance atm between settling on a floodplain and killing it, or settling off and eating the hefty health penalty, which I don't think needs upsetting.)

Unless you mean the floodplain coming back in the case of the city being razed? In which case, I'm almost certain this appears in EitB atm.


On that note, any interest in using the infernal changes from EitB? (Extra spawning units based off enemy city count; cities start at size 6)

 

[Terkhen]

- Dispel magic cannot convert creation mana back to raw mana. I haven't tested with force/dimensional but I suspect this may hold true for them as well.

I wasn't able to reproduce this issue. I was able to dispel Creation, Dimensional and Force nodes normally in 0.4.0.

On the civics screen (F3) the Neutrality Membership civic is missing a "reqs Grigori" requirement.

I cannot reproduce this issue either. Were you playing as Grigori? The prerrequisites are not shown if you fulfill them.

1) We haven't seen Acheron spawn once after the Barbsplus change. I assume he has been set to only spawn in high wilderness, but the value is probably too high. We had a lot of barb cities last game in relatively remote areas: it didn't help.

Although it is true that Acheron seems to take more turns to spawn and that it does not spawn sometimes, I saw Acheron spawn normally twice on test games. It may be possible that the minimum wilderness value for it to appear is currently too high. What do others think?

It seems like the repentant angel cost is a bug, there's no mention of that in the manual and it clashes with the mercurian mechanics.

Most angels have a cost of 0, Valkyries have a cost of 10, and Repentant Angels have a cost of 240. Do you mean that all of them should have a cost of 0?

The random event that allows you to choose between paying gold for a graveyard instead of suffering unhealthiness applies the unhealth to ALL cities, imo it should only apply to the one city the event is triggering in.

If that's true, other events such as the Inadequate housing event should have the same problem... I'm unsure about what to do about this.

On that note, any interest in using the infernal changes from EitB? (Extra spawning units based off enemy city count; cities start at size 6)

In the future, I plan to review your EitB changes and adapt and include some of them in EMM. For now, as I mentioned earlier I'm going to stick to bugfixes and minor featurettes. I will hopefully have more free time in a few months

In other news, 0.4.1 is nearly ready for release now. As I mentioned before, 0.4.1 will include a revert of the Warrens change. I'm going to give some of the most complicated remaining issues a try, and afterwards I'll prepare the version for release.

I'm waiting to release it because I would prefer to know more opinions about the issues mentioned in this post (Acheron, Repentant Angels and global unhealthiness from events). I won't have internet at home in the upcoming weeks, but I will be able to check the discussions and make the release as soon as these matters are resolved. Thanks everyone for your patience!

 

[lfgr]

Although it is true that Acheron seems to take more turns to spawn and that it does not spawn sometimes, I saw Acheron spawn normally twice on test games. It may be possible that the minimum wilderness value for it to appear is currently too high. What do others think?

I think this is an AI issue. In some tests the AI was able to build Acheron, but didn't (see Barbsplus issue 104). When I get time I'll test if Acheron spawns normally in MNAI.

If that's true, other events such as the Inadequate housing event should have the same problem... I'm unsure about what to do about this.

Added an issue for events enhanced.
It shouldn't be to hard to restrict health changes to the chosen city, but maybe it also affects events that work right at the moment. I'll look into it when I get a chance.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I'll also vote for inclusion of Q's latest Eitb changes, good stuff there.

forgot to comment on the floodplains again, but yes it is possible to have them not disappear when settled upon. it was a feature of Denev's ffh unofficial patch, and included in wildmana as well.

I do think all t4 angels should cost 5 gold to upgrade. that's how the mercurian angels are supposed to work. if Repentant Angels are considered too good, they could need level4 to upgrade to instead of level3, like seraphs, ophanims and heralds.

lfgr, can you confirm that the new barbarian/lair spawning mechanism works correctly on scenarios and premade maps as well as mapscripts? I haven't seen high level lairs spawn on Nikis-Knight's Erebus huge map lately, and I remember this used to be an issue in Master of Mana as well, which got fixed later on. this might also be linked to the Acheron issue.

 

[Qgqqqqq]

The graveyard point is true. Feature or bug, I won't call, but it is the case.

No opinion on Acheron or Mercurians, I don't have enough experience with Basium and none with wilderness.

 

[lfgr]

lfgr, can you confirm that the new barbarian/lair spawning mechanism works correctly on scenarios and premade maps as well as mapscripts? I haven't seen high level lairs spawn on Nikis-Knight's Erebus huge map lately, and I remember this used to be an issue in Master of Mana as well, which got fixed later on. this might also be linked to the Acheron issue.

At least the wilderness calculation works with my local version, in which I didn't change anything in that regard (try cheat mode and holding Ctrl or setting the global define DEBUG_PAINT_WILDERNESS to 1).
What exactly do you mean? No strong barbs spawning in lairs over time or no strong barbs spawning from lair exploration?

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

the issue master of mana had is that it would not spawn lairs on premade maps, and I haven't seen it spawn lairs in EMM on a premade map. then again maybe you don't want lairs to spawn, just units?

 

[lfgr]

You mean lairs that spawn on map generation, like barrows? I don't think these should spawn on scenarios. If the mapmaker wants lairs, he can place them himself, and there are certainly cases where he doesn't want lairs to be placed randomly.

Btw, I don't think this is different in barbsplus compared to MNAI.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

nope, I mean lairs that spawn during gameplay, MoM has them but I guess EMM doesn't then

 

[lfgr]

Except for animal lairs, no
It's on my TODO-list to add some lair spawning mechanic, though, but I'm not sure what's the best way to implement this, yet. Barrows popping out of the nowhere seems odd to me.
If you have any suggestions, please comment in the issue tracker.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

I've looked into the repentant angel issue and I'm now inclined to say it's intended. Mercurians strategy section from the manual:


"Repentant Angels are the "Holy Hand Grenade" of the Mercurian Forces. Easily acquired and incredibly powerful,
they might seem an easy choice, but be warned that any time they kill a Living Unit, they become permanently weaker."


that "easily acquired" is obviously in comparison to the other angels that need lvl4 to upgrade, and the cost is most likely intended to balance that.

 

[Terkhen]

I think this is an AI issue. In some tests the AI was able to build Acheron, but didn't (see Barbsplus issue 104). When I get time I'll test if Acheron spawns normally in MNAI.

Okay, thanks!

that "easily acquired" is obviously in comparison to the other angels that need lvl4 to upgrade, and the cost is most likely intended to balance that.

I see... I guess they are intended as shock troops, and not as experienced units. We'll leave the costs as they are then.