ExtraModMod

[Calavente]

yes, that is possible.

(Edit) nationhood Pacifism: -20% unit production (or -10%)...
if you have 0.8 or 0.9 per turn... it count as 0 !!

 

[UnderKingDuck]

I have a question. I wanted to send a report for a OOS error me and a friend are getting, but I don't see SynchLog. I can only find the OOSLog. Where is the SynchLog suppose to be by default?

 

[Qgqqqqq]

yes, that is possible.

nationhood : -20% unit production (or -10%)...
if you have 0.8 or 0.9 per turn... it count as 0 !!

That isn't the case in base. If it's a result of the fractional counting system of EMM, than I think it's a silly change.

Oh, and you're thinking of Apprenticeship, not NH.

 

[Sezren]

That isn't the case in base. If it's a result of the fractional counting system of EMM, than I think it's a silly change.

It does happen in MNAI 2.63. Work boat + 1 production + Pacifism => no production

 

[Terkhen]

I have a question. I wanted to send a report for a OOS error me and a friend are getting, but I don't see SynchLog. I can only find the OOSLog. Where is the SynchLog suppose to be by default?

SynchLog should be in the same place than the OOSLog. If you can't find it don't worry, the most important file is OOSLog. Please make sure to attach both OOSLog files (yours and your friend's).

If it's a result of the fractional counting system of EMM, than I think it's a silly change.

I never noticed that change :/

 

[Sarmatian]

It was indeed caused by apprenticeship. Rounding down from 0.9 to 0 caused it. It would be better if it could go lower than 1.

Anyway, I've been thinking about Luchuirp golems again and I think it might be best if fireball for golems is removed.

Golems are already strong as it is. Presuming a C5 promoted Barnaxus, a mere wood golem has 9 strength. That is equivalent to a C4.5 bronze axeman, or C5.5 ordinary axeman (roughly). You have to promote an axeman 5 or 6 times to have a roughly 50/50 chance against a wood golem. That is mission impossible, you may have a few of those but there's no way to get them consistently while STR 9 golems are constantly leaving the production line.

Iron Champion against Iron Golem fares similarly. He needs C5 to even stand a chance. Only mithril Champion would stand a chance with "only" C2.

Yes, golems are more expensive but in virtually all cases, you'd get more than 1 kill with your Wood Golem against enemy axemen before it is destroyed, which makes net loss of hammers harder on your enemy. With a few level 1 adepts, golems can easily be repaired on the road, so the chances for a loss are significantly smaller.

Add a fireball on top of that, and it is an equivalent of an "I win button".

To compare, Amurites (THE magic nation) can build firebows, 7/9 strength unit if they have acces to iron. They need two promotions to start throwing fireballs, and an additional one to get two moves. That's three. Compare that to Gargoyles, instantly a two moves unit with STR 9/12 with C5 Barny.

Luchuirp aren't limited to adepts like Khazad (Garrym Gyr is even Arcane), they can build siege and repair them on the road, so there's plenty of sources for collateral for Luchuirp, no need for a high STR melee unit that can addiotinally cast fireball.

As the biggest problem with golems is tediousness, I'd remove the fireball entirely and give them a building for an additional move at Sorcery.

There could be complemented with a a new building for a light/heavy promotion, if you want weaker but even faster golems or stronger but slower.

The slight problem with this would be Gargoyles - they're two move unit, if they are granted an additional move from the building and additional one from light promotion, they would be 4 moves! Too much for a golem. Maybe let them have a Mobility 1 promo from the bat, regardless of any buildings, so they couldn't end up with more than 3 moves.

What do you think, Terkhen?

 

[Calavente]

I kinda disagree.

golems have 4 issues:
- costly
- no promotions (until barny has some), and max at +50%
- no upgrade (you need to re-build them for each tech)
- slow as hell.

as compared to an axeman, that can come from C3 warrior, and then you get him bronze axes..
5str +60% = 8str : close to that pesky woodgolem (with barny at c5) and for only 10xp.
but honestly, nobody has barny at C5 as soon in the game.
but your axe can get instead : C2+anti-melee1 : 80% : 9 : same as that golem with maxed out barny.
and your archer can have 3/5 + CD2 + HD : 5+120% = 11 def or so in a city

and your axe can be hasted by one of those same "cheap" adepts : more mvt.
and your axe get to 6 if you have iron : wood-golem is in the pit. (no need for iron working : Forges of Gal'Dur are sufficient)

and you get 3axes for 2 wood-golem (about)... in the end : Wood golem are great in individual, but they have no prospect, no evolution, and in a war they are sub-par.

then comparing Iron-golem to iron-champion.
- iron champ are cheaper
- can get promotions to increase chances : C3 anti-melee1 : +100% : 16 str vs iron-golem 15 when barny is at maximum
and in the long run iron champ can get mithril weapons / can get mutated (strong ...etc).


So it is the same : golems are strong. you are right, but they are less versatile than normal units.

giving fireballs to golem aims to 2 things:
- give a late-game increase of str.
- reduce the mobility penalty of luirchips : a reach of 3 ! instead of 1.
remember that any normal unit can easily have a reach of 3 : mobility1 + haste.
and mounted get a reach of 3-6 : 3 + M1+haste + M2
while luirchips are maxed at 2-5 for mounted

I agree that the fireball is very strong if gifted to every golem...

would you prefer a "pyre zombie special" : +1fire str, explodes when dies ?

 

[Sarmatian]

I kinda disagree.

golems have 4 issues:
- costly
- no promotions (until barny has some), and max at +50%
- no upgrade (you need to re-build them for each tech)
- slow as hell.

Agree.

as compared to an axeman, that can come from C3 warrior, and then you get him bronze axes..
5str +60% = 8str : close to that pesky woodgolem (with barny at c5) and for only 10xp.
but honestly, nobody has barny at C5 as soon in the game.
but your axe can get instead : C2+anti-melee1 : 80% : 9 : same as that golem with maxed out barny.
and your archer can have 3/5 + CD2 + HD : 5+120% = 11 def or so in a city

Yes, but there are a few caveats.

1) Those axes needs to be bronze, which means you have to get copper.
2) Even with three promotions AND bronze, they are still weaker. You need C4 to be at equal STR
3) How many C4 axes can you have? And what when they die? Those golems are STR 9 off the production line. You need pretty much all XP civics, all XP wonders, AGG civ and Command Post to get them to C4 off the bat.
4) So you need both Archery Range and Training Yard, while all Luchuirp need is Sculptor's Studio.
5) Level 1 adepts can repair those wood golems to full strength instantly while at that point there is no way to heal living units instantly. That comes either with a few end game heroes, or end game T4 units, which are very limite in number.

and your axe can be hasted by one of those same "cheap" adepts : more mvt.
and your axe get to 6 if you have iron : wood-golem is in the pit. (no need for iron working : Forges of Gal'Dur are sufficient)

That again presupposes that you've gone RoK, and talking of hammers, Gal'Dur is extreeeemely expensive.

and you get 3axes for 2 wood-golem (about)... in the end : Wood golem are great in individual, but they have no prospect, no evolution, and in a war they are sub-par.

Disagree, obviously with the conclusion. In a straight up fight, two wood golems take out 3 axes and both or one survive. That's a net gain in hammers in the long run for Luchuirp.

then comparing Iron-golem to iron-champion.
- iron champ are cheaper
- can get promotions to increase chances : C3 anti-melee1 : +100% : 16 str vs iron-golem 15 when barny is at maximum
and in the long run iron champ can get mithril weapons / can get mutated (strong ...etc).

1) they are cheaper, but weaker.
2) That's again 4 promotions. Not easy to get. And if they die, what you're gonna do? Newly built golem is STR 15 again, while newly built champion is C1/C2.
3) You will face other potential enemies (range, disciple) so you need to balance the promotions out, while those Iron Golems are 15 STR against everyone.
4) Mithril Weapons is a very expensive late game tech. You will face Iron Golems mid game. It's very easy to get GE with Luchuirp and build GoH instantly.

So it is the same : golems are strong. you are right, but they are less versatile than normal units.

That is true, but you can complement them with potent mages and choose a religion to complement them, Empyrean, for instance. High speed Rathas running around, catching stragglers and pinning the enemy stack for the golems.

giving fireballs to golem aims to 2 things:
- give a late-game increase of str.
- reduce the mobility penalty of luirchips : a reach of 3 ! instead of 1.
remember that any normal unit can easily have a reach of 3 : mobility1 + haste.
and mounted get a reach of 3-6 : 3 + M1+haste + M2
while luirchips are maxed at 2-5 for mounted

I agree that the fireball is very strong if gifted to every golem...

would you prefer a "pyre zombie special" : +1fire str, explodes when dies ?

I don't disagree with this, but as it is, 10 Iron Golems with fireballs will mop the floor with 20 iron Champions, even if all 20 have C4. And, with a few level 1 adepts, they will be fully healed to take another 20 next turn if need be.

In the end, you can run around and pillage all you like, but in Civ, cities are where it's at. So, your ultimate target for golems is static, and you know where your enemy will need to go in order to beat you. That's an advantage for the golems.

I'd prefer a solution where a longer reach of the golems is possible with mobility promotions, rather than giving them fireballs.

Terkhen talked about an additional building for the golems, to give them either light or heavy promo, but I'm thinking it be better to take away fireballs and give them a building for mobility promo.

 

[Calavente]

In the end, you can run around and pillage all you like, but in Civ, cities are where it's at. So, your ultimate target for golems is static, and you know where your enemy will need to go in order to beat you. That's an advantage for the golems.

I'd prefer a solution where a longer reach of the golems is possible with mobility promotions, rather than giving them fireballs.

Terkhen talked about an additional building for the golems, to give them either light or heavy promo, but I'm thinking it be better to take away fireballs and give them a building for mobility promo.

for me, the advantage of mobility is not "running around".
it is threefold:
- reaching that ennemy city : you have less units in the field, and they reach the ennemy faster after completion: it's to supplement that intial stack
- moving around to mop-up that ennemy empire in the shortest time as possible : no time for him to react / less time between declaring war and attacking with your main stack...Etc
- attacking that enemy from 2 tiles away : your stack doesn't get weakened before even attacking the city.

but again, I'm thinking that you overestimate barny...
- getting him to combat 5 is not easy... often you don't have him to that level ; because a C3 Barny is worth more than a dead C4 barny (it's hard to get those 17 xp at the time that barny is created, and I don't even speak of reaching 26 xp: you need to have him with an adept, otherwise he is slow as hell to heal.. but that adepts can be preyed upon by barbs... difficult.)
- at the very least you don't have Barnaxus at C5 at the time of the axe vs wood-golem face-of.

That said, I often think that champions are under-strengthed. (I have devoted some threads to this.)
but then, I also almost never use iron golems : for me they are too expensive for their strength and mobility. I'd rather use the gargoyles... and directly T4 golems.
But it's true that it's due to my way of playing...
(I mean : to reach Iron golems, you need to research the whole melee path... without getting units: usually other civs reach champions way before you have iron golems)

then as the last point : the main use of Fireballs-golem is ...
fire-ball mud golems !! 2 mvt + fireball : that's the cheapest and most mobile mage you can get... and they don't cost maintenance (IIRC).

getting those fireballs on the iron golems and such is just a freebee.

(and honestly, by the time you get the "fire-ball-building"... you should alredy have built your iron-golem army... getting them upgraded to fire-ball means re-building them, which is costly).

In conclusion, I agree that fireballs are strong, but I disagree that it makes the luirchip TOO OP, and that it should be removed
Fireballs are mainly a mean to help Luirchips that are already winning to have a way to mop-up the map a bit more quickly.

Remember, all other civs have some OP late-game if played well.


- cheap-mounted-mercenary-horde for Hippus (7str with iron, 4 mvt, 30% withdrawal... much better than normal civs HA... and cheaper, and built in 1 turn)
- almost un-breakable illusionist spectre (boosted with 5+ death nodes) for svart.
...etc
- vampires... at champion-level ???
- OGRES: same price as iron golems ... and with iron (that you ALSO need for iron golems).. they are born at 10 str..., can be upgraded, can get promotions... (only 5 xp to be as strong as an iron golem with full-barny ), can be hasted.... and ... ... you can get 2 for the price of 1 ! so, you get a promoted Ogre for half price of the IB, then a no-xp Ogre for free (they don't need fireballs to be OP).
--> but nobody complains about ogres ? because if you reached Ogres en-masse with Clan, you are at a point were you have already won, but need to finish the game ... or where the other civs have strong enough alternatives to counter you.

 

[doktarr]

Suggestion: Sanitation and Medicine techs should be unavailable to the Infernal civ. They just get in the way of bulb paths. Aquae Sucellus is the only even theoretically useful thing for them in those techs, and it's marginal at best.

 

[flitz]

I just had a look at the supplies unit.

My idea was to make them buildable in order to share production between cities. Apparently, this can be done by raising their iCost to something >0. The question would be what value to use so that the unit is useful but still balanced.

The buildings that can currently be built by supplies are:

• 100 - Market, Training Yard, etc.
• 120 - All Temples
• 250 - Forge

So, you can say that only the Forge is significantly outside the cost range of the rest of the buildings. Making the supplies cost 250 would probably be too expensive to be worthwhile but making them cost less would be a cheat towards the Forge.

Normally I would have said, use the average cost of all buildings that can be built by the supplies and add 10% to get their own cost. Maybe it would be an idea to throw the Forge out of that list and make the supplies buildable ?

Let me know what you think

 

[DarkLunaPhantom]

Whenever I try to start an EMM game on my new computer it ends up in a CtD before the map loads. I have the logs and the dump file, but the full dump is over 1GB large so I don't know where to upload it... (Normal dump ends up being of a more reasonable size of 5-6MB.)

I can play FfH2 ("o patch") games normally.

 

[scutarii]

fire-ball mud golems !! 2 mvt + fireball : that's the cheapest and most mobile mage you can get... and they don't cost maintenance (IIRC).

Mud golems cost maintenance, as workers and slaves, so there is no reason to build too many workers. I'd remove upkeep penalty at least from slaves.

and at least in extramod wood golems cost 45 hammers.

 

[scutarii]

After-Grigori thoughts:

Positives:

A separate adventure counter + boosting buildings

Game mechanics due to adventure counter favours specialist economy

Adventurers are good vs early rushers

Negatives:

Luonnnotars suck and are not worth of hassle. I'd give to them free dispel spell at least and affinity to force mana.

Neutrality civic sucks, it gives + 15% and irrelevant + 25% GPP and + 25% GG - also irrelevant, and totally counterproductive for "bonuses" . I'd give +100% GPP ( good for specialist economy) and ..um special buildings for quarries, maybe a free specialist per quarry for a city - not initially, this quarry has to "develope" like a cottage first/town at first.

 

[Terkhen]

It was indeed caused by apprenticeship. Rounding down from 0.9 to 0 caused it. It would be better if it could go lower than 1.

Indeed, this should be fixed. Since it was mentioned that this is an EMM change (although since I didn't do it I presume it is a MNAI or FFH change), I guess that other mods do it in a better way. Could anyone point me to a better implementation for these fractional costs?

Anyway, I've been thinking about Luchuirp golems again and I think it might be best if fireball for golems is removed.

...

What do you think, Terkhen?

That we completely agree. The initial release of ExtraModMod included a nerf which made fireballs available at Gunpowder. The public outcry about this nerf was so big that I relented and switched it back to how it was in vanilla. The consensus in the forums is that since golems are so slow, the fireballs is a way to make them viable. Since you and I seem to be the only ones against it I gave up on trying to balance golem fireballs.

The discussion you had with Calavente leaves me with some sensation of deja vu, as this has been discussed many times exposing similar arguments.

Remember, all other civs have some OP late-game if played well.

I don't think that any of those examples are comparable to the fireball golem problem. The Guild of the Nine has already been identified as a problem, although I lack the time or interest to reimplement the mechanic. Spectres can only be summoned by units that are limited in number, and vampires cannot be mass produced easily either. Ogres may or may not be problematic (in my experience they are not; not being able to upgrade your early game axemen to them is quite a big problem and ogres have not been a deal breaker in my games either, but this is another topic altogether), but they are not a fair comparison either. As you mentioned, the mud golem fireball army is far more worrysome and I cannot think of any other civ that can pull a similar strategy.

Suggestion: Sanitation and Medicine techs should be unavailable to the Infernal civ. They just get in the way of bulb paths. Aquae Sucellus is the only even theoretically useful thing for them in those techs, and it's marginal at best.

I agree.

I just had a look at the supplies unit.

My idea was to make them buildable in order to share production between cities.

That is the role of the Soldiers of Kilmorph. Allowing other strategies for sharing production between cities would reduce the usefulness of the Runes of Kilmorph.

Whenever I try to start an EMM game on my new computer it ends up in a CtD before the map loads. I have the logs and the dump file, but the full dump is over 1GB large so I don't know where to upload it... (Normal dump ends up being of a more reasonable size of 5-6MB.)

I can play FfH2 ("o patch") games normally.

Which version are you using? Is it 0.5.0? As it worked for you before, it seems like a problem in the installation to me. Are you sure that you are using Beyond the Sword 3.19? Are you having problems with other mods as well?

Luonnnotars suck and are not worth of hassle. I'd give to them free dispel spell at least and affinity to force mana.

Immunity to magic is quite powerful, specially in the late game and for a unit with 10 strength. In ExtraModMod it is possible to build Luonnotar with Strength of Will instead of with disciple-related technologies that are useless for the Grigori. Because of this I don't think they are a hassle; they are an additional bonus for going through the archmage route. I don't mind giving them a slight buff, but in my opinion neither dispelling or force mana affinity fit the Luonnotar much from the point of view of the lore.

Neutrality civic sucks, it gives + 15% and irrelevant + 25% GPP and + 25% GG - also irrelevant, and totally counterproductive for "bonuses" . I'd give +100% GPP ( good for specialist economy) and ..um special buildings for quarries, maybe a free specialist per quarry for a city - not initially, this quarry has to "develope" like a cottage first/town at first.

Neutrality is a membership civic. Since the Grigori cannot adopt any other membership civics, just having the option of Neutrality is an additional buff. The war unhappiness fits with the neutrality theme so it should stay, although the value could certainly be tweaked. GPP is hardly irrelevant in my opinion, specially when the Grigori are suited for specialist economies and bonuses to GPP also apply to the Adventurer Counter. Bonuses to Great General emergence are also nice, as is getting one GG before your enemies in war do (specially in the early game, as Neutrality can be adopted quite soon).

100% GPP is too much of a bonus, specially when bonuses to GPP production also affect the Adventurer Counter. Perhaps something on the lines of 10% war unhappiness, +25% GPP and +100% GG emergence while inside borders would be better.

 

[spaceman98]

Is it just me, or are the Sheaim, at least as an AI underpowered? Their supposed to be a technological powerhouse and a threat to all of Erebus, but generally in my games their AI is weak and they fall technologically and militarily behind. Or am I missing something key here? This isn't specific to extramodmod btw.

 

[Calavente]

merry christmas !!!

re-golems.
I agree that mud-golem fireballs are OP.
however I maintain that luirchip have a really hard start, with expensive worker, expensive axes (in science and in hammers)... it's like they need to build a hammer each time they want to swat a fly).
Further, golems, on the whole diversity of games, are really not stronger than their counterparts (save for the fire-ball-mud-golem-army)
My example of the Ogre, is that it was said that Irongolems are OP and kill all and everybody, and they are an example of why Luirchips are already OP without need of the fire-balls.

My point is exactly what you said Terkhen : OGRE are not game-breaking, and are not really worth it!
However, ogres are cheaper and stronger that iron golems.... if ogres are not game-breaking and not so usefull, why consider that iron-golems are game-breakers ?

that said, I also think that fire-ball-mud-golem-army is OP and need some change... but IMO replacing it will be complicated as the slow golem army has no real way to accelerate the win at the end-of-game.

 

[spaceman98]

minor request: When a puppet state gets legitimacy there should be a text notification. Something like "Mahon the Butcher has become the legitimate leader of the Calabim". I know the conditions for legitimacy are clear (last remaining instance of the civ) but this is just a nice verification from the game that all is going according to plan

 

[Tholal]

minor request: When a puppet state gets legitimacy there should be a text notification. Something like "Mahon the Butcher has become the legitimate leader of the Calabim". I know the conditions for legitimacy are clear (last remaining instance of the civ) but this is just a nice verification from the game that all is going according to plan

That's something for base MNAI. Good suggestion. I'll add it.

 

[Sarmatian]

That we completely agree. The initial release of ExtraModMod included a nerf which made fireballs available at Gunpowder. The public outcry about this nerf was so big that I relented and switched it back to how it was in vanilla. The consensus in the forums is that since golems are so slow, the fireballs is a way to make them viable. Since you and I seem to be the only ones against it I gave up on trying to balance golem fireballs.

Well, wouldn't it then be better to have a way to give golems additional move(s) instead of giving them a fireball?

The discussion you had with Calavente leaves me with some sensation of deja vu, as this has been discussed many times exposing similar arguments.

Well, a lot of it is based on Barnaxus. In SP, it is relatively easy to level him up, in MP, much, much harder and sometimes you're better off with with a C3 Barny than risking him to C5. Lairs and barrows work best in my experience, especially the latter.

Usually I can get him to C5 from just two barrows.

It just reinforces how good FFH is - after all these years there isn't a single "right way" to play it.

merry christmas !!!
re-golems.
I agree that mud-golem fireballs are OP.
however I maintain that luirchip have a really hard start, with expensive worker, expensive axes (in science and in hammers)... it's like they need to build a hammer each time they want to swat a fly).
Further, golems, on the whole diversity of games, are really not stronger than their counterparts (save for the fire-ball-mud-golem-army)
My example of the Ogre, is that it was said that Irongolems are OP and kill all and everybody, and they are an example of why Luirchips are already OP without need of the fire-balls.

Well, in EMM (at least according to the 'pedia) Wood Golems are 45 hammers, the same as Axes. And I was thinking more of the Wood Golems than Iron Golems. I rarely go for Irons now, fireballing Gargoyles do the work just fine.

With C5 Barny, Wood Golems just destroy anything in front of them, as it is still early in the game and there are many ways for other civs to strengthen or speed up their axes by that time.

Ogres, are mid to late game unit, and CoE have a hard time keeping up in science with other civs.

that said, I also think that fire-ball-mud-golem-army is OP and need some change... but IMO replacing it will be complicated as the slow golem army has no real way to accelerate the win at the end-of-game.

Like I said - a building to give the golems additional move(s) would solve that much better than a fireball.

Personally, I'd have one building to give them a +1 move instead of the Blasting Workshop and additional one to give them a Light promo.



HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!