ExtremeMod

[Soro]

You certainly do like to fill up the page with words,

No, I really don't. But you presented a challenge, and I'm really just trying to help out. Words are a means to that goal, to getting across ideas. I'll keep my remarks short in the future, since this approach isn't one you like.

We need just some basic religious structure, not specific to sex, or insight, or magic that we can quantify into a first religion (and then push that forward into more advanced religions). Isis or Dionysus is just too culturally specific -- what are the archetypes of these deities? We need to broaden the field to encompass a whole range of cultures. . . See where I am going? If it is just your opinion, over mine (or any another gamer), is it worth updating?

What about Fertility Deities? A concept that might have the effect of aiding in animal husbandry, and crop rotation. Solar Deities? Aided in understanding of primitive astronomy, including planetary movement, and engineering measurements. Is that the kind of thing you're looking for?

 

[tchristensen]

Fertility Deity or a Solar Deity has much promise, but is a Fertility Deity much different than Goddess worship? I also think paternal/ancestral worship might be something we should look at, as well as a nature god -- both of these hold promise if we can keep the concept basic enough.

Anything we chose should have an imaginative name (and like I said a couple sentence description of what it is and how it came to be), so we have some room to explore still. What thoughts do you have on a celestial god, nature god, ancestral worship, or fertility god?

And finally words are a means to a goal, but some people (not necessarily you) think that by sheer length of a response lends itself to being more authentic or proves a point over a simple straight forward response -- I have been jaded by seeing far too many long winded responses that say absolutely nothing, other than the person's opinion.

Troy

 

[Soro]

Fertility Deity or a Solar Deity has much promise, but is a Fertility Deity much different than Goddess worship? I also think paternal/ancestral worship might be something we should look at, as well as a nature god -- both of these hold promise if we can keep the concept basic enough.

From an accuracy standpoint, fertility deity is better than Goddess worship, because "Goddess worship" implies a worship-by-sexual-appearance, and there's no evidence of that being as important as fertility. Fertility attaches the reason a god/goddess might be chosen. It was to aid in all things related to crops, herds, and the number of children in your tribe. Usually a goddess, but not always.

Anything we chose should have an imaginative name (and like I said a couple sentence description of what it is and how it came to be), so we have some room to explore still. What thoughts do you have on a celestial god, nature god, ancestral worship, or fertility god?

You mean, imaginative replacement names for those? Hmm. Celestial god=Sky Ruler, Sky Walker, Star Rider? Nature god=God of the Dark Forests? Ancestral god=God of the Lineage? Fertility god=God of Increase? Of course, god or goddess for any of these.

 

[tchristensen]

Getting on the right track but the names offered seem so trite. We need to bang around some more names. Don't want "God of X" but rather a straight forward non cultural name, thus staying away from Isis or Dionysus or other such derivatives.

I like Goddess because it is rather straight forward and very descriptive of the sort of religion it was; you could argue that it may or may not have existed, which may be true but then again we are not making a historical representation of ancient history but rather a concept of what an early god could be (do you see the difference?).

I am working on a huge installment of ExtremeMod in which I am going to be adding in Atlantean magic interwoven with fantastic creatures -- with that said, I am thinking of using one of the religion slots for a god of magic or perhaps some derivative of Atlantis folklore to represent a deity for the new update. So keep that in your mind as well.

I am still torn over some of the early gods and how to best represent them -- I am not, of course, trying to recreate necessarily real world history specifically, but rather the "What If" scenario of other possibilities. And I would rather move away from specific real world religions, mostly those tied to a specific culture or regions, and open it up to more broad concepts and ideologies.

All in all it is going to require some very deep thinking and then some serious re-work on the mod.

 

[Soro]

Getting on the right track but the names offered seem so trite. We need to bang around some more names. Don't want "God of X" but rather a straight forward non cultural name, thus staying away from Isis or Dionysus or other such derivatives.

So you want made-up names, in other words? Lyra, Xenoa, Rivakar, Tou'ra, Cha-k'na-del-Na, that sort of thing? S'vatov. Kivanog. Dinatere of the Flowing Locks. Long-Sighted Qath. Many-Bladed Varsik.

I like Goddess because it is rather straight forward and very descriptive of the sort of religion it was; you could argue that it may or may not have existed, which may be true but then again we are not making a historical representation of ancient history but rather a concept of what an early god could be (do you see the difference?).

I'm having trouble--no offense meant. When I hear, Goddess, it's the same as God. In other words, all it says "This is a deity of the female/male gender." It doesn't say anything about them.

I am working on a huge installment of ExtremeMod in which I am going to be adding in Atlantean magic interwoven with fantastic creatures -- with that said, I am thinking of using one of the religion slots for a god of magic or perhaps some derivative of Atlantis folklore to represent a deity for the new update. So keep that in your mind as well.

Sounds great, frankly.

I am still torn over some of the early gods and how to best represent them -- I am not, of course, trying to recreate necessarily real world history specifically, but rather the "What If" scenario of other possibilities. And I would rather move away from specific real world religions, mostly those tied to a specific culture or regions, and open it up to more broad concepts and ideologies.

Sounds like fun, and yes, hard work. Ever read any Lord Dunsany or Clark Ashton Smith? Just for ideas, mind.

 

[tchristensen]

So you want made-up names, in other words? Lyra, Xenoa, Rivakar, Tou'ra, Cha-k'na-del-Na, that sort of thing? S'vatov. Kivanog. Dinatere of the Flowing Locks. Long-Sighted Qath. Many-Bladed Varsik.

I'm having trouble--no offense meant. When I hear, Goddess, it's the same as God. In other words, all it says "This is a deity of the female/male gender." It doesn't say anything about them.

Hmmm made up names might work -- it would be cool if the game would randomly grab one from a list so that each time a new game is played, there would be a new set of religions. You can do that for units, so maybe there is hope there. If not, maybe a more generic name but less fantastical if you get my line of thought.

And perhaps that is where we are getting confused with Goddess. Goddess is not a female God (as opposed to god) -- do you see the difference? Goddess is not God but a god; the god is a woman because early man saw a woman as the fertility of nature and of man. When I say Goddess, it isn't some spin on Feminism but just how early man saw nature.

If you want a wild read I suggest you pick up a whole series of books written by M.A.R. Barker -- start with the Golden Man. After you read his books, then we really can talk about world building and religions.

Have a Merry Christmas!

 

[Soro]

Hmmm made up names might work -- it would be cool if the game would randomly grab one from a list so that each time a new game is played, there would be a new set of religions. You can do that for units, so maybe there is hope there. If not, maybe a more generic name but less fantastical if you get my line of thought.

Was this what you were looking for? I don't know how else to help in finding god names/characteristics that aren't culturally linked, when all gods were culturally linked. The best I can do.

And perhaps that is where we are getting confused with Goddess. Goddess is not a female God (as opposed to god) -- do you see the difference? Goddess is not God but a god; the god is a woman because early man saw a woman as the fertility of nature and of man. When I say Goddess, it isn't some spin on Feminism but just how early man saw nature.

Still confused, I'm afraid. Sorry. :\ There's no evidence that prehistoric humanity saw woman or a woman as fertility, unless you discount thousands of lingams that still existed and were carbon-dated at the same time, and the fact that the female fertility figures like their counterparts were localized, and the fact that the fertility figures for both sexes could be meant by their cultures not as gods, but fetishes to bring fertility luck. Gods and goddesses of fertility exist, but no all encompassing God or Goddess. Monotheism didn't exist at that time. If you have the source evidence, again, I'm truly interested in reading it. Otherwise, it will look a little to some folks (not many, I agree, for most couldn't care less) like putting metal smelting in a game and declaring that it came before the discovery of fire. It won't hurt the game in any way, since fire and metal smelting in Civ context are a series of tech placemarkers that can be called anything, but it will make at least a few people wonder where this is coming from.

I'm not saying "You can't do this, you, you...you!" It's your choice. I fully realize that. But attempting to convince me of something I've never heard except from Dianic witches, who are feminine monotheists, without any supporting source materials, won't work. Best to just do it the way you want.

If you want a wild read I suggest you pick up a whole series of books written by M.A.R. Barker -- start with the Golden Man. After you read his books, then we really can talk about world building and religions.

I'll keep that in mind, though I haven't read fantasy/scifi in ages. Just no time. I was only wondering if you were looking for good books that might suggest Atlantean stuff, and wasn't recommending them over anyone else. Haven't read their work in a long time, either, but they're both out of copyright, and Gutenberg probably has some of each.

 

[Dumanios]

I had thought that the Goddess religion was a religion for a possible Amazon civ.

 

[tchristensen]

Always time for a good book -- between my 45+ hours a week job, two nights a week going to school, taking care of the family, my modding for ExtremeMod and my writing of several RPG sourcebooks, I still find time to read some good fantasy. MAR Barker, if you are old enough, designed Swords & Glory (Tekumel) and is absolute must read for anyone who even remotely likes fantasy.

I am still not completely sold on moving away from the Goddess, but very much like our discussion. I guess I am curious once we settle on a god, lets say we name him Rivakar (from your suggestion) what is going to stop some other gamer from coming along and questioning that entire deity strand and I am back to square one?

 

[tchristensen]

Hopefully within the next two weeks I will be debuting ExtremeMod 3.0 which adds a huge new line of technology based on fanciful Atlantean culture.

With this addition, all sorts of quasi magical and steam punk additions will be available. I am also toying with limiting access to certain key technologies from specific cultures so if someone did not like or want to add all of the Atlantean conversions, they could just select from the list of Leaders and know they would not see most of it (although the barbarians will always have access to it -- at least at this time).

There are just too many technologies to list here, but I think the last estimate was over 20 new techs and double that for units. Buildings are a bit lacking with only a half dozen, but I may add a few before releasing it.

All in all a very exciting update!!

 

[Actuarian]

I'm looking forward to it!

 

[tchristensen]

Here is a screen shot of a recent game using ExtremeMod 3.0; notice the Unholy Ground with the Mana Pool underneath it as well as the Ley Lines also developed with a Mana Pool.

Note: Atlantean workers (called Sages) can make Atlantean Roads, similar to Roman Roads, but they are colored a golden yellow. Normal roads exists still (see image above).

More photos tomorrow as it is extremely late and I must get upstairs!

 

[dreadknought]

I have a good game going currently using all war option, prince level, though I am still having trouble falling behind the ai in research times. I play small map against 6 civs,no tech trading with just culture, religious and commercial victories on. I also boosted the defense values on walls/castles ect which makes it very hard to take or lose cities, but that is fun to me in a total war type scenario. Im at 500bc with 6 cities and listed in last in power, lol, however im first in culture with 3 good culture producing cities. Due to my defense boost archers remain usefull for quite a long time, up to the grenadiers really. I love the mod, units ects, havnt had any issues playing on a small map, but I wouldnt try anything over small without a high powered laptop. I can see myself playing this mod quite a long time.

 

[tchristensen]

I have a good game going currently using all war option, prince level, though I am still having trouble falling behind the ai in research times. I play small map against 6 civs,no tech trading with just culture, religious and commercial victories on. I also boosted the defense values on walls/castles ect which makes it very hard to take or lose cities, but that is fun to me in a total war type scenario. Im at 500bc with 6 cities and listed in last in power, lol, however im first in culture with 3 good culture producing cities. Due to my defense boost archers remain usefull for quite a long time, up to the grenadiers really. I love the mod, units ects, havnt had any issues playing on a small map, but I wouldnt try anything over small without a high powered laptop. I can see myself playing this mod quite a long time.

Sounds like you are having a fantastic game. I wouldn't worry about the power scores so much; I have tried my hardest to eliminate them but the system is buried deep in the code. In one game alone, I was at the top while the bottom feeder was giving me a good run for my money when I attacked his cities.

I offer you this challenge, because I generally don't play on the settings you do, if you notice something just really odd let me know. If you find something on Prince level or on a small map, both of which I don't use at all, drop a note here so I can fix it.

I am so glad you are enjoying the game. As I said, I am working on a new version with almost another 50 percent new content.

Good luck on the current game and keep at it!

 

[God-Emperor]

I think you are running int the problem that "Goddess" is to "goddess" as "God" is to "god". It doesn't matter if you mean it that way or not, it is a parallel construction. As such, it gives the impression of an organized monotheistic religion - something which didn't exist in the prehistoric period.

Perhaps Mother Nature, or Mother Earth, or Earth-Mother (which I like the best of these 3). These are all pretty generic terms for a goddess of nature, related to fertility.

 

[tchristensen]

I think you are running int the problem that "Goddess" is to "goddess" as "God" is to "god". It doesn't matter if you mean it that way or not, it is a parallel construction. As such, it gives the impression of an organized monotheistic religion - something which didn't exist in the prehistoric period.

Perhaps Mother Nature, or Mother Earth, or Earth-Mother (which I like the best of these 3). These are all pretty generic terms for a goddess of nature, related to fertility.

Thanks for the suggestion. After listening to you and several other people, and reflecting on the direction of ExtremeMod, I am going to replace all of the religions with non-cultural parallelistic religions. That is, staying away from specific cultural deities as in Isis or Mars but also trying my hardest not to reference God, Goddess, nor even Devil, Demon, or Angel.

I am sure it won't satisfy everyone, but it has to be better than Lincoln worshipping Shintoism or DeGaul belonging to the Voodoo cult or even Tokugawa being Muslim (you get the idea).

Thanks for the help.

 

[tchristensen]

Here is another picture from the other night testing with a couple of friends. Fixing a ton of little bugs and tweaking many units.

Here you can notice some roads, but also the beginning of a Atlantean Roadway (the golden path). Also you can see a Ley Line Bonus Resource after it has been harvested into a Mana Pool.

 

[tchristensen]

Gearing up for the release of ExtremeMod 3.0 BETA. Perhaps this weekend, but most definitely next week.

So many new cool things to offer, but it is better to show them off then talk about them.

 

[tchristensen]

Above was an updated photo of the Civics table from the game. Just added this morning was the Atlantean tab with all its magical flavors of civics. Very interested in how this plays out.

 

[St1nky]

i'm having an issue with land/naval mines, the buttons are whatever the previous unit played,the naval mines were fine until landmines appeared, also theres no button to arm the mines

also if for instance i use a unit with 2 move points it moves 2 but mines have only 1 move per........

*shrugs*