fail gold from wonders

CivNoobie

King
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
614
i'm watching a guy playing a game where he is alternating cities to build wonders such as angkor wat/parthenon which he has no intention on finishing except to wait for someone else to finish it so that he can collect gold from all the hammers he put into, so how is this different from building wealth?
 
Simply put, the conversion rate is better!

In vanillca and Warlords, it was MILES better, since 2H=1C when building wealth.

In BTS, it is much closer, BUT... if you are industrious (wonder bonus), or are building a wonder with an accelerator (most often stone or marble), you get that bonus production before the H is converted to a C, which makes it better than building wealth.
 
i'm watching a guy playing a game where he is alternating cities to build wonders such as angkor wat/parthenon which he has no intention on finishing except to wait for someone else to finish it so that he can collect gold from all the hammers he put into, so how is this different from building wealth?

What Jastrow said is true...

But before you set all your cities to building World Wonders, you should consider this:

A. Do you need money NOW - or can you wait 50 turns?
If you need money now (upgrades, running 100% science-slider or other reasons...) you are better off building Wealth. If you can afford the wait, you get more money from the same number of raw hammers you put into the wonder than you would've gotten from simply building Wealth (due to the wonder-multipliers).

B. Are you (or the AI's) ahead in tech - and by how much?
Building wonders for cash is better if you and the AI's are on level terms tech-wise. If you build a wonder for cash that no AI has the tech to build, you should consider gifting them the tech (so they have a chance to build the wonder you need them to build). If the AI's are way ahead of you, they will probably have finished the wonder before you even reach the required tech to start its construction. Thus, no failgold for you...

C. You can build National Wonders instead of World Wonders?
By building a national wonder in one city (only one city at a time is allowed by the game...naturally), and then removing it from the build-queue, you will get failgold for the wonder once you build it in one of your other cities. You have more control over when you get the money; as you decide when to finish the wonder yourself. By the way: You can do this with World Wonders as well... but then... if you really want to build it yourself, you run the risk that an AI gets to it first...



Yours Sincerely

Kjotleik of Norway :)
 
It's also important to note that you can chop and put overflow hammers into a wonder, unlike with just building wealth.

Also multipliers like forge, and organized religion can increase hammer yields further.

Shifting wonders around your city such that the one the AI is most likely to build next, is another way to make sure you get the gold early. Unless you're on a low level and the AI is far from building that wonder, it's almost always better to build wonders instead of wealth.
 
In vanillca and Warlords, it was MILES better, since 2H=1C when building wealth.

Only Vanilla. Also the 50% conversion rate isn't fixed. The gold multipliers did work on processing wealth. Once getting Market, Grocer and Bank, the result was simply what we get in future versions. But the investment is hard.
Interestingly, with the Wall Street, if you got a hard hammer city, that means one hammer for 2 gold I think. Or 50%...depending how the game processes the multiplier. Never checked that.

EDIT:
Oh hi Jastrow. :p
 
Also multipliers like forge, and organized religion can increase hammer yields further.
Forge also multiply hammers before conversion when building wealth
 
Getting some form of consolation prize for losing a Wonder race is ok but I think it's silly game design that Failgold is an advanced strategy.
 
Sad that there is not another option against failgold - you still can finish wonder (now its like.. mini-wonder :D ), but you could get some minor benefit :D With Oracle - 1/2 of tech you want... with Pyramids.. 1 government civic (random civic so not always you get REP), with MoM +25 Golden Age turns, with GLH +1 trade route/city, with Great Library 1 not 2 free scientist etc. :D
just (maybe stupid) idea that sometimes come in mind when I see wonder finished by someone else and saying to myself: oh, great, now 20 turns I can run 100% research... :)
 
just (maybe stupid) idea that sometimes come in mind when I see wonder finished by someone else and saying to myself: oh, great, now 20 turns I can run 100% research... :)

That's not a stupid idea, it's a genuine tactic used by Deity players. Only worth it when you possess stone/marble/gold though.
 
It's also the reason why Industrious is the best trait in the game, even though there's only 8 wonders in the game really worth building :P
 
Yes, failgold should be removed from the game. You tried to build a wonder and failed. There should be a penalty not a reward. I'd go for something more like a couple grand of culture for the city (nice but not really that helpful unless used in working towards a culture victory) and maybe a quarter of the wasted hammers being able to be put towards whatever is next in the queue.

The fact that it has become a strategy that is sought out and abused highlights just another bad design feature.
 
I think fail gold for Word Wonders is OK, it's being able to farm it almost indefinitely with National Wonders that's a big abuse IMO.

Not that I don't use it from time to time :mischief: (I once got 2.5K+ gold just by farming fail gold on the NE... with a non-IND leader)
 
And that doesn't make you feel that it's broken? While not quite 2.5, i once did a world wonder quite a bit. I now limit myself to doing it in only one city, so not to make it absurd. But everyone is entitled to play the game how they want. But this is just another reason why I stay away from comparison type games. I really don't want to play the game this way. I also turn off tech trading for the same reason. If you have to do those things to beat deity, I'll just avoid playing that level.
To each his own. We pay for the privilege. I'm not going to tell people how to have fun and I don't expect them to tell me. (recommendations are fine though ;) )
 
I don't like failgold because it is gamey, sure people may argue you need a consolation prize, but when it's used and abused, sought after and a genuine tactic, then something's gone wrong. It's difficult to think of an alternative strategy for a consolation prize (or you could just fail - and lose everything, but I wouldn't see that as popular), but failgold is not it, and you should 0 failgold, no matter how many hammers have been invested in other cities if it has been invested in a National Wonder, because that's just plain silly.
Problem is Wealth cannot be affected by anything that boosts production e.g. chopping, OR, double speed resources etc. and this is why failgold economy can work.

Bleh, I don't know what could replace failgold, but it is clear failgold via wonders is really exploiting how building wealth is weaker.
 
Bleh, I don't know what could replace failgold, but it is clear failgold via wonders is really exploiting how building wealth is weaker.

Not that I see any way to change it, but I always thought the best wonder failure consolation would be getting some fraction of the hammers back with a 'buildings only' limitation. You were building some magnificent structure and opt to use it for a marketplace, or a university, maybe a complex of both, or whatever. Can't magically turn it into units, but that structure you've been building for a thousand years ought not just vaporize.
 
And that doesn't make you feel that it's broken? While not quite 2.5, i once did a world wonder quite a bit. I now limit myself to doing it in only one city, so not to make it absurd. But everyone is entitled to play the game how they want. But this is just another reason why I stay away from comparison type games. I really don't want to play the game this way. I also turn off tech trading for the same reason. If you have to do those things to beat deity, I'll just avoid playing that level.
To each his own. We pay for the privilege. I'm not going to tell people how to have fun and I don't expect them to tell me. (recommendations are fine though ;) )
I completely respect that and I didn't do it at all before. But... such... sweet... gold.......

And yes I do think it's broken that's why I said I thought it was an abuse :mischief:
 
Yeah I wish there was an alternative.
 
I disagree. I think failgold is good.

Often times something has an unintentional use -- this is true of many things in civ and in other games. It's not a sign of horrible design, in fact it can be a sign of good design, or fixing bad design.

Many of the most cherished strategies are "gamey" and were not intended by Firaxis.
- Spawn busting
- Using spies to revolt a city before attacking
- Trading resources for GPT
- Advanced tech trading
- Mass promoting units
- Supermedic scouts
- Worker stealing
- DoW unit teleports
- Begging gold
- The Great Wall
The list goes on and on.

But what's more important is many of these tactics actually fix what would be extremely weak if used properly. Espionage points were meant to poison water of enemy cities. Realize that's rly what they had in mind for it -- after all that's what they told the AI to do. So espionage points are pathetically stupid, but being able to time city revolts with an attack, can give espionage points SOME impact in the game.

Great Generals were meant to just give your units a bunch of exp, and to have super strong units, etc. (basically useless). Now with super medic scout we make use of what was a barely thought out concept.

Mass upgrading units = They probably didn't intend for you to upgrade a dozen HAs to cuirs the turn you unlocked them, but this gives the GM a special use, other than just being like inherently worse than GS.

Spawn busting = Barbs are really dumb. Some maps are going to generate 10x as many barbs against a player as others, and then those barbs have a chance of winning a crazy battle and ruining your entire game. Spawn busting this nonsense gives the player some tools to combat this random chance hell.

The Great Wall - Meant just as a way to stop barbs, but on Deity barbs aren't an issue, and you certainly don't care about that great general bonus..... so we build it purely for the espionage points and settle a GSpy super early, giving both the espionage system and the TGW a purpose to an otherwise purposeless existence.

This could spawn some off topic discussions : / but the point is it doesn't matter if it's intended or gamey or abusive or exploitative. What matters is whether it adds more than it takes away from the decision making process.

I don't think failgold is bad because it fixes the fact that only a few wonders are worth building on Deity because either you can't beat the AI to them, you dont have enough, big cities to make them worthwhile, or they're just overall bad and you've learned how to better use your hammers.
Failgold makes use of those wonders in another way, and it buffs the industrious trait, which would otherwise be pretty cruddy.

National Wonder failgold isn't overpowered, it's usually not as good as world wonder.
1. Most national wonders suck too, but unlike world wonders you have to complete it yourself at least once.
2. IF the NW is useful, then delaying it to collect failgold is costly itself. The only time I failgold a national wonder is when the city I'm planning on building it is currently busy, so I might get a few fail gold turns in.
3. Building the same wonder in many cities in a row for fail gold means you are delaying receiving the gold. If you build the moai statues in 6 different cities before completing it, the odds are your initial city would have received a greater return from building wealth and using it immediately.


If wonder failgold is exploiting how building wealth is weaker, how is building wealth not exploiting the fact that building beakers is weaker?... Because you're exploiting the fact that running your slider at 100% is stronger, because you can exploit how powerful tech trading is.
 
Many of the most cherished strategies are "gamey" and were not intended by Firaxis.
- Spawn busting
- Using spies to revolt a city before attacking
- Trading resources for GPT
- Advanced tech trading
- Mass promoting units
- Supermedic scouts
- Worker stealing
- DoW unit teleports
- Begging gold
- The Great Wall
The list goes on and on.

HUH. While any game that is out for awhile get analyzed to the point that unintended exploits are found many of these were specifically designed and tested.
Were you on the design or testing team? There are those that know better.

But everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
I'm pretty sure using the Great Wall to create an early Great Spy was intended. Otherwise why give it Great Spy points?
 
Back
Top Bottom