Fail Gold vs. Wealth/Research

[Zerro0713]

I have seen veteran players on higher difficulties (Immortal) build wonders to the point where they have 1turn until completion but they abandon the project in order for the the AI to complete the wonder, thus earning the player a chunk of change. I was wondering what the advantages are of sinking all those hammers into the wonder instead of something like Wealth or Research.

Also, if you do plan on generating income through Fail Gold, do you ONLY build wonders where you have the resource associated with it, or do you build the wonder that would net the most income, or do you build a wonder that you may change your mind on and actually complete, or does it just not matter?

Thanks

 

[Manco Capac]

It boils down to using wisely multipliers. First, building research is often not good because building wealth gives you the opportunity to raise the slider and raising the slider means better use of science multipliers (more common early like cheaper library vs market and academy, which doesn't have any equivalent for gold). The thing with processes (wealth, research and culture) is the conversion is always 1 hammer for one commerce(I prefer the term process though). Only hammer multipliers will change the process a bit via hammers and only forges happen to exist for half the game. Vanilla was even worse by giving 50% of hammer output into process.

The thing with "fail gold" is the use of resource multipliers like marble, gold, stone (or something else if you are playing a specific mod) gives double hammer output. Industrious gives another 50% on top of it. In the end, via those multipliers, you get more wealth than wealth building itself.

 

[Smilingrogue]

This explains the reasons behind building wonders instead of wealth.

Summary: Wealth only takes production buildings into account - Forge, Factory, etc. Wonders on top of production buildings, take traits like Industrious, Spiritual (Cristo Redentor), Civics like Organised Religion and booster resources (Copper, Gold, Ivory and of course, Marble and Stone) into account. The return on investment is better for Wonders.

Edit : Cross-post with Tachy.

Edit 2 : Initially linked to the wrong thread, fixed.

 

[Manco Capac]

MarigoldRANaway!!!

Wonder if people still reminds of

Spoiler :

marathon/huge propaganda

 

[Zerro0713]

Summary: Wealth only takes production buildings into account - Forge, Factory, etc. Wonders on top of production buildings, take traits like Industrious, Spiritual (Cristo Redentor), Civics like Organised Religion and booster resources (Copper, Gold, Ivory and of course, Marble and Stone) into account. The return on investment is better for Wonders.

So wealth isn't affected by commerce improvements like cottages, watermills, windmills, water tiles, and resources?

 

[Smilingrogue]

So wealth isn't affected by commerce improvements like cottages, watermills, windmills, water tiles, and resources?

Those generate 'commerce'. Commerce is what affects our science, espionage, culture sliders. 100% Science slider means we are using 100% of our empire's commerce on science. Wealth is raw gold. This includes wealth generated from resource trades, 'building' wealth in the city build queue, settled Great Merchants, Holy Shrines, Corporation headquarters, Settled Great Prophets.

Wealth is part of commerce. Buildings like Markets, grocers, etc. multiply wealth, i.e., they multiply the raw gold a city generates. If the city generates no gold due to the slider being too high to have a positive commerce, then these buildings don't do anything.

Wealth 'building' is influenced by hammer multipliers. These will increase the raw hammer output and thus the gold per turn a city 'builds'.

Finally, buildings like Libraries, Monasteries, Security Bureau, etc. multiply 'commerce'. This means their influence is dependent on the science and Espionage sliders. If they are both set to zero, these buildings don't generate additional Beakers or Espionage Points.

 

[Izuul]

Those generate 'commerce'. Commerce is what affects our science, espionage, culture sliders. 100% Science slider means we are using 100% of our empire's commerce on science. Wealth is raw gold. This includes wealth generated from resource trades, 'building' wealth in the city build queue, settled Great Merchants, Holy Shrines, Corporation headquarters, Settled Great Prophets.

Wealth is part of commerce. Buildings like Markets, grocers, etc. multiply wealth, i.e., they multiply the raw gold a city generates. If the city generates no gold due to the slider being too high to have a positive commerce, then these buildings don't do anything.

Wealth 'building' is influenced by hammer multipliers. These will increase the raw hammer output and thus the gold per turn a city 'builds'.

Finally, buildings like Libraries, Monasteries, Security Bureau, etc. multiply 'commerce'. This means their influence is dependent on the science and Espionage sliders. If they are both set to zero, these buildings don't generate additional Beakers or Espionage Points.

I think the way the bold part is worded is slightly misleading. Markets, Grocers, Banks, and Wall Street multiply the gold portion of commerce from the slider. Calling gold "Wealth" can be confusing. Building "Research" is also easy to confuse with science from the slider.

I like to call the 3 portions of the commerce slider Science, Gold, and Culture to separate them from Research and Wealth.

As stated by others above, building "Research" and "Wealth" converts your hammer production to either science or gold and uses your hammer multipliers like forges. The three components of the slider all have their own multipliers like libraries, universities, markets, banks, cathedrals, etc.

Edit: forgot about espionage with BTS but it works the same as culture, research, etc.

 

[pigswill]

One consideration is that failgold wonders convert hammers to wealth at a favourable rate but you don't get nothing until the wonder is built and AI can be unreliable.

 

[ben-jammin]

One consideration is that failgold wonders convert hammers to wealth at a favourable rate but you don't get nothing until the wonder is built and AI can be unreliable.

You may not get the gold exactly when you want it, but I see the AIs being slow to build wonders I have the resource for as a good thing. I've gotten close to 2000 failgold on the sistine chapel alone.

 

[Smilingrogue]

I think the way the bold part is worded is slightly misleading. Markets, Grocers, Banks, and Wall Street multiply the gold portion of commerce from the slider. Calling gold "Wealth" can be confusing. Building "Research" is also easy to confuse with science from the slider.

I guess that is confusingly worded. But to be fair, this is a confusing concept to explain. Markets, Grocers and such still multiply gold from Corp HQ or Shrines even if the slider's at max and the empire's net gold per turn is negative, but in this case, they don't multiply the commerce harvested from the tiles if the net income is negative and now other buildings like Libraries and Security Bureau come into play. (Or is it Intelligence Agency that multiplies the EPs? )

 

[Kid R]

Also the downsides - which are that fail gold payout arrives both later, and usually at some unpredictable time later, than building wealth now.

Don't know about you but there is never, ever, a time when I am not absolutely desperate for the very next tech

 

[capnvonbaron]

Also the downsides - which are that fail gold payout arrives both later, and usually at some unpredictable time later, than building wealth now.

Don't know about you but there is never, ever, a time when I am not absolutely desperate for the very next tech

Some are pretty predictable. I frequently fail-build pre-currency wonders all the time explicitly for failgold. I've netted lots of GWall, ToA, and a couple others more times than I can count. Even some others like SoZ and Colossus are good and have fairly predictable dates the AI will get them if they don't suit your needs (isolated, or not many coastal tiles).

Not saying I failbuild stuff EVERY game, but it can be a useful strategy.

 

[Lennier]

Hmmm..in my current game as an industrious leader with stone I built the Chichen Itza to within one turn in one city, then began building it again in a second city. I got worried that I'd actually have to build it myself to get the fail gold when it got to three turns left to being built in the second city! And I wasn't the first (or even second) to code of laws! (Monarch difficulty). But boy did the money flow in when an AI finally completed it.

 

[capnvonbaron]

Haha... yeah Chichen is a tough one to predict when it goes... I've actually seen it be built after I've already researched rifling and obsoleted it on Prince difficulty, lol. Most AI don't prioritize it (since it is a nearly worthless wonder).

 

[Lennier]

Most AI don't prioritize it (since it is a nearly worthless wonder).

If this is correct, it would imply that the designers knew CI was a sucky wonder.

Tachywaxon (or other code diver), does the AI really put a low priority on the CI?

 

[capnvonbaron]

I guess I'm not sure if they do or don't. I just tend to see it go far later than you would assume it would based upon its initial availability. My guess is probably more of the AI's low priority to research CoL once Confucianism is in...

 

[6K Man]

This terminology really needs to be standardized, to avoid confusion:

Commerce = , the stuff you get from tiles, trade routes, and Palaces.

Gold = the Gold resource. +1 , and another with Forge. +6 per tile

Wealth = Comes from slider output, shrines, corporate HQs, etc. Modified by Banks/Markets/Grocers/Mints.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Actually Tachxywon, I named this name after Marigold, who DID run away. Why do you think it's called MarigoldRan? (Duh)

For that matter, I wouldn't have returned if you hadn't mentioned my name. But then you got my attention....

But to answer the OP, yes. What everyone else says. Or what I said. Or both. Whatever. The point is the multipliers kick in for building wonders.

You build wealth only if your economy is about to collapse and your units are about to go on strike. Or you're on an isolated start, the situation sucks, and you have nothing better to do and all the wonders got built by the AI already.

 

[Manco Capac]

If this is correct, it would imply that the designers knew CI was a sucky wonder.

Tachywaxon (or other code diver), does the AI really put a low priority on the CI?

Honestly, I don't know. Wonder is such a random factor, but the completion date is often tied to tech acquirement. Given CoL gives away a religion, most veteran players noticed other AIs are no longer interested in that tech once the religion goody is gone. Now, imagine CoL falls into human hands or an AI with a low propensity to wonders and you'll see a late respective wonder.

Some wonders bear flavors; perhaps it dovetails well with certain leaders...

 

[Zerro0713]

I managed to build the Parthenon in 4 of my cities until 1 turn remaining. I think it netted me about 500 gold.

Do you really think the chops should still go toward it or toward other buildings?