Fall Further 050 Balance Issues

[odalrick]

It probably can get more promotions, only it's owner doesn't have the tech. Warfare and Horseback Riding for instance.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

It probably can get more promotions, only it's owner doesn't have the tech. Warfare and Horseback Riding for instance.

It is an animal. Animal civilization can't get technologies, I assume, since they do not have cities...
By the way, I can't see why an animal should get any benefits from technologies like horseback riding...I do not think animals ride horses...

 

[xienwolf]

Correct, animal Civ gains no techs ever. The problem with them being blue-glow is that they don't VALUE any of the promotions left to acquire. Something is available (possibly just the "No Promotion" option which is always available if nothing else is), but they don't want to take it. If the case is that the animal is down to just "No Promotion" then if it isn't hurt it doesn't want to spend the XP to gain a level and heal (as it doesn't need to)

 

[Sarisin]

Animal strength only escalates while they are in the wild. So there is a payoff to be considered there: Do I leave the animal alone and capture later so I have a strong unit (at the risk of someone else capturing/killing him first), or do I snag him now before he gets out of reach and/or TOO strong?

You're right, and this is especially true with Elephants. I captured one that was 'only' Strength 7 while in my last game I saw them up to Strength 15. The key with the very strong animals is to take an Archer with you.

It's very strange, even for FF, though, in that I have not seen a single Gorilla in 500+ turns. Usually one will spawn at some point. I need one for the Grand Menagerie, but haven't we all heard this before?

Anyway, after my post above, the groups of barbs have seem to settle down the last 200 turns or so. It still amazes me how barb units will lock on to any enemy unit they spot and follow it all over the map.

 

[Valkrionn]

You're right, and this is especially true with Elephants. I captured one that was 'only' Strength 7 while in my last game I saw them up to Strength 15. The key with the very strong animals is to take an Archer with you.

It's very strange, even for FF, though, in that I have not seen a single Gorilla in 500+ turns. Usually one will spawn at some point. I need one for the Grand Menagerie, but haven't we all heard this before?

Anyway, after my post above, the groups of barbs have seem to settle down the last 200 turns or so. It still amazes me how barb units will lock on to any enemy unit they spot and follow it all over the map.

My current game I've seen plenty of gorillas, but no tigers.

 

[Sarisin]

I really had a chuckle when I saw two separate groups of 3 Hill Giants enter my border to attack. Now, there was something new that you never saw before.

Fortunately, I had some well-promoted Hunters and War Elephants waiting for them.

I am still confused though on what are animal units and beast units, and which units automatically get bonuses against which unit.

It was much more simple when they were all animals, but I guess this separation makes the game more interesting.

 

[xienwolf]

Look at the flag Orc face = Orc, Skull = Demon, Wolf = Animal.

If there are members of more than 1 Barbarian faction sharing a tile, look at the leader name. Agares = Demon, Bhall = Orc, Cernnunos = Animal.


For Recon bonuses, look at the icon in front of their name: Animals & Beasts are determined by unitcombat.

 

[TimSLS]

Pssobile balance issue with how the AI handles the arhosians against a human neighbor. Once I get hunters with subdue animal, I sign open borders with arhosians, then send my hunters through farming all their carefully collected hidden nationality spiders. Relativly easy with the plusses against animals (also, hidden nationality units seem too agressive about attacking against bad odds). Then the arhosians are (almost) effortlessly stripped of one of their primary advantages and I suddenly get a powerful spider army.

I think this problem is with how the AI handles hidden nationality animals - they don't understand how vulnerable they are. While a human player can make good use of the hidden nationality spider, the ai just seem to have them roam their own terriroty waiting to get killed. They should either send them off the attack neighbors they aren't at war with to weeken their economy by killing workers, etc, or be programed to declare nationality if they are to be used in a more traditional role.

 

[Vehem]

Pssobile balance issue with how the AI handles the arhosians against a human neighbor. Once I get hunters with subdue animal, I sign open borders with arhosians, then send my hunters through farming all their carefully collected hidden nationality spiders. Relativly easy with the plusses against animals (also, hidden nationality units seem too agressive about attacking against bad odds). Then the arhosians are (almost) effortlessly stripped of one of their primary advantages and I suddenly get a powerful spider army.

Fair point - given that animals aren't hidden nationality generally at the moment, I'm tempted to remove it from the spiders but allow them to toggle it on/off whilst in friendly territory. Should be fairly easy to set the AI to only cast the spell if it currently has an offensive AI.

 

[Invoke_Shadows]

This seems like a bug maybe it's intended, I played several games on deity, Orc barbarians ect never attack any of my cites , I even had unprotected cities, they never attack them, all they do move around my area destroying all roads and improvements killing all workers ect, they attack units not in cities but never any cities.

Soon as they cleared all improvements out ect they move out my territory. Soon I pop out new workers ect 5 or 6 turns later they show up again.

This really boring and seems redundant, Also unless build forts all over my units will never get exp cause they never attack cities.

I have even spawned really nasty daemons from dungeon one was crown encased in fire, Now maybe it can't attack cities but it just did the same as other barbs do then leave.

Also automated workers never move back in cities when in danger, they only want build lumber mils forts everywhere. specially for AI civs

 

[Thunder_Gr]

I think Undead should be given Poison Immunity, Should not be able to become spooked,should have Fire vulnurability, cold resistance, Should not be able to get Bless, and should have reduced resistance to the Sun II spell.

 

[WarKirby]

I think Undead should be given Poison Immunity, Should not be able to become spooked,should have Fire vulnurability, cold resistance, Should not be able to get Bless, and should have reduced resistance to the Sun II spell.

Poison Immunity
Good idea. What's it going to do..kill them ?

Fear immunity
Very good, really should be in there.

Fire vulnurability
I don't like this one. Wouldn't make sense for skeletons, and I don't see any reason zombies should have it if living humans don't. They're made of the same stuff.

cold resistance
Agreed, I like this

Unblessable
Not sure about this. You can still bless a corpse. Last rites, and all.

Sun II
I actually don't like the way this works at all. Not sure about it infecting undead, maybe...

I'd also suggest maybe making them more vulnerable to the Dominate spell

 

[Brokenbone]

The Undead suggestions above, I tend to support.

They also happen to have Holy vulnerability right now, I believe... maybe +50%? I'd suggest it be an even worse vulnerability though, with the recognition that +holy damage at any significant level is fairly rare (Vicars have +1 holy, as an example).

Still, note that they're one of the few races that "anti-racial" promotions still in the game, can target, which can be a weakness if used correctly. That is, we've got anti-demon (+40%), anti-undead (+40%) and at least the Chislev with their Totem of the Old Enemy business get an anti-orc promotion. Did have a good little early game war against the Scions where all my swordsmen started taking undead slaying, since it was long before the city raider promos would be available. Yes it wasted a valuable promotion which'd never be used in future wars, but it helped win the war it was acquired for.

 

[Vehem]

I think Undead should be given Poison Immunity, Should not be able to become spooked,should have Fire vulnurability, cold resistance, Should not be able to get Bless, and should have reduced resistance to the Sun II spell.

Already Immune to Poison (FfH), can't be spooked (requires the unit is alive).

Sun II is "Blinding Light" - arguably the undead don't "see" and wouldn't be affected the same way as the living would. Whilst I don't think there is any specific link/opposition between Sun/Death spheres however, stereotypical undead are considered to be night creatures, so the spell could feasibly still stun them temporarily - so the spell still makes sense, just without a great need for a special vulnerability.

Bless makes sense and would probably require isAlive, except that would block it from Angels too. (EDIT: Could be done using the "BlockPromotion" fields that Xien added). Fire/Cold resistance/vulnerability - could argue that neither would bother undead much (no sense to feel it), but likewise could argue that bones/flesh become brittle when burnt/frozen. Averages out, so again probably doesn't need a special case.

 

[Tarquelne]

cold resistance

I think undead would be highly resistant vs. "Brr... I don't want to go outside." cold. But I imagine that the cold damage weapons/creatures in the game are far, far colder.

bless

I think it'd make the most sense as a restriction on a per-divinity basis. Some would, some wouldn't. In game I'd assume any blessing put on an Undead has the god's blessing.

Sun II

Maybe the Headless ones? OTOH, it's easy to assume some sort of immaterial, magical light is actually doing the blinding.

(Though, given that, I'm surprised Sun magic has a blindness effect at all. Seems more appropriate to Shadow.)

Dominate spell

For Scion undead - I think it makes the most sense they be treated just as "normal" people. (They're very much non-cannon undead.)

"Realistically" that could go either way for most Undead. As a balance issue, I don't see a reason to change it.

I'd apply the preceding two sentences to all of the above, btw.

 

[Thunder_Gr]

Already Immune to Poison (FfH), can't be spooked (requires the unit is alive).

Sun II is "Blinding Light" - arguably the undead don't "see" and wouldn't be affected the same way as the living would. Whilst I don't think there is any specific link/opposition between Sun/Death spheres however, stereotypical undead are considered to be night creatures, so the spell could feasibly still stun them temporarily - so the spell still makes sense, just without a great need for a special vulnerability.

Bless makes sense and would probably require isAlive, except that would block it from Angels too. (EDIT: Could be done using the "BlockPromotion" fields that Xien added). Fire/Cold resistance/vulnerability - could argue that neither would bother undead much (no sense to feel it), but likewise could argue that bones/flesh become brittle when burnt/frozen. Averages out, so again probably doesn't need a special case.

The undead promotion does not mention poison immunity.
Unfortunatelly, my Skeleton summons become spooked when summoned in HL, so, if you say they cannot be spooked it must be a bug...

I feel that the Undead can see, otherwise they wouldn't have eyes and their speed should have been incredibly slower. Even if someone argues about the skeletons, I think we should remember that almost all Scions are Undead, and they are not skeletons. I think Blinding light is more than just "light" in the sence that it is a sort of Angelic/Divine Light(If you read the ending for the Radiant guard scenario you will get the feeling), that should hurt undead more than living, IMO.

Well, fire damage is quite common in the game, cold damage not much, but is there. I think the effects of the Illian's spells and Tsunami, should be able to be better resisted from beings that have no liquids running in them, while fire is easier to ignite dry "flesh" or bones.

I think it'd make the most sense as a restriction on a per-divinity basis. Some would, some wouldn't. In game I'd assume any blessing put on an Undead has the god's blessing.

There is no divine for Undead. No god likes them, no divinity would bless them. Demons is one thing, Undead another, IMHO.

 

[Tarquelne]

Unfortunatelly, my Skeleton summons become spooked when summoned in HL, so, if you say they cannot be spooked it must be a bug...

Yep - *Any* unit just appearing in the HL was getting those promos. xienwolf sorted it out and it should be in the next patch. (I thought it already was.)

I feel that the Undead can see, otherwise they wouldn't have eyes and their speed should have been incredibly slower.

OTOH, we could assume that Undead move a super-speeds. Or would if they had functioning eyes.

I think the effects of the Illian's spells and Tsunami, should be able to be better resisted from beings that have no liquids running in them, while fire is easier to ignite dry "flesh" or bones.

"Realistically" I think minor adjustments are justifiable... if you don't consider the variable nature of Undead. Balance wise, OTOH, I think it hard to justify. Is there currently something that's unbalanced by a lack of fire vulnerability or cold resistance?

(I fought a lot of Frostings in my last Scion game. Cold resistance would have made them much less threatening - I don't think that's a good thing.)

There is no divine for Undead. No god likes them, no divinity would bless them. Demons is one thing, Undead another, IMHO.

There's quite a few FfH gods, and I doubt we completely know their agendas. And the Scions are explicitly non-canon, too. Just who hates or likes them won't be in the standard FfH lore. (Though you can bet that Arawn is not happy.)

 

[Breez]

I have had Summoned Skeletons get the poisoned promotion after fighting a unit that does poison damage.

 

[Vehem]

I have had Summoned Skeletons get the poisoned promotion after fighting a unit that does poison damage.

That might be a slightly different issue that needs fixing, but the list of immunities/vulnerabilities inherited from FfH are

            <DamageTypeResists>
                <DamageTypeResist>
                    <DamageType>DAMAGE_DEATH</DamageType>
                    <iResist>100</iResist>
                </DamageTypeResist>
                <DamageTypeResist>
                    <DamageType>DAMAGE_HOLY</DamageType>
                    <iResist>-50</iResist>
                </DamageTypeResist>
                <DamageTypeResist>
                    <DamageType>DAMAGE_POISON</DamageType>
                    <iResist>100</iResist>
                </DamageTypeResist>
                <DamageTypeResist>
                    <DamageType>DAMAGE_UNHOLY</DamageType>
                    <iResist>50</iResist>
                </DamageTypeResist>
            </DamageTypeResists>

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I'm thinking that it may actually be the fact that a unit it not living that makes them not get poisoned, not the 100% resistance to the damage type.