Fall Further 050 Balance Issues

[Iceciro]

Then you couldn't poison demons or angels either.

Regarding blessed corpses, there's plenty of support for a blessed corpse of a god, they're called mummies and despite being undead and violent-smashy types, that doesn't make them evil in games/stroies/etc... Is it strictly evil to animate undead? Is it evil to use them to fight with instead of risking actual living squishy people.

I dunno about you, but as a peasant in the harsh world of FFH, if my local Lord started to summon up Skeletons to prevent the Orcish Horde from destroying me, my family, and everyone I'd ever known - I could probably deal.

 

[Vehem]

I'm thinking that it may actually be the fact that a unit it not living that makes them not get poisoned, not the 100% resistance to the damage type.

I'd say both are appropriate though - the unliving, or the naturally/magically immune to poison...

Then you couldn't poison demons or angels either.

Regarding blessed corpses, there's plenty of support for a blessed corpse of a god, they're called mummies and despite being undead and violent-smashy types, that doesn't make them evil in games/stroies/etc... Is it strictly evil to animate undead? Is it evil to use them to fight with instead of risking actual living squishy people.

I dunno about you, but as a peasant in the harsh world of FFH, if my local Lord started to summon up Skeletons to prevent the Orcish Horde from destroying me, my family, and everyone I'd ever known - I could probably deal.

I'd agree that it could be used for a just purpose, but the general opinion in Erebus appears to be that Necromancy is just too freaky for the common folk. Using the Death sphere incurs significant diplomatic penalties already... That is probably enough of a downside without any explicit effect on Alignment for every skeleton summoned though...

 

[TimSLS]

Two related balance issues on the animals:

1) The AI seems to like launching suicide attacks again powerful animals - in my last game, every 5-10 turns some AI would attack one of the two strength 9 combat 5 polar bears roaming around my border. Once I got hunters and animal husbandry, I just waited for one such attack to knock the bear down to 5 or 6, then took him only losing 1-2 hunters.

2) In a similar vein, even without AI help it is pretty easy to take down even such tough animals once hunting is available, simply by using many hunters (even better if you have knowledge of the ether and skeletons to soften up). Sure it costs production but - whats 5 hunters dead to get a base strength 9, combat 5 creature with enough extra xp hanging around to level up a couple of city attack promotions? Ends up being cheaper than building some of the mid-game/late game heroes just counting production cost (even ignoring the research cost to get their prereq tech) and just as powerful as many.

Also, the potential to get any such unit at hunting simply by throwing 500-1000 production away is a bit unbalanced with pact of the nilhorn, and doesn't seem to be a reality to AI understands. Also can dramatically overpower whatever they have - in my example, I captured two such polar bears at the cost of 4 or so hunters (admitabily I imagine i got a bit lucky in them being on my border) and they were capable of launching strength 20 attacks with all their promotions (city attack promotions nullified that -25% and then some).

I'd suggest two things: First, give the animal barbs the ability to purchase the canablize promotion (10% healing from combat, right?). That way, my horde of hunters wouldn't be able to wear down such a powerful unit, and their capture would have to wait until I have the tech available to get more powerful units, thus alleviating the concerns noted above. Waiting for Rangers or beastmasters to capture them makes sense...

Alternativly, let powerful animals upgrade to being Beast units rather than animals (might be difficult to implement). Would have same effect...ultimately, the important thing is to push back aquisition of these units to later in the tech tree, when they aren't nigh invincible

Second, don't allow animals to get the city attack promotions. It too dramatically nullifies their base hinderance, and it seems odd to get expert city attack animals...

 

[Sarisin]

I find it easier to take down powerful animals by taking an Archer with his ranged attack along with the Hunter. One volley of arrows seems to bring even powerful Elephants down to a point where the Hunter has good combat odds on defeating and capturing the animals. The Hunter, of course, needs to have some promotions and things like a Great Commander attached, good mutations (last game played as Balseraphs), a poisoned blade, or other goodies from lairs.

I probably shouldn't mention it, but in my last game I didn't build any mounted units because I had at least 10 War Elephants with strengths up to 14. They saved me many times when the AI sent groups of 6 Orc or Frostling Wolf Riders into my territory.

 

[TimSLS]

Well, my suggestion on canibalize wouldn't help that...if them turning into Beasts rather than animals at a certain level of strength were possible that would address it though. Any other ideas? I just think something needs to push them back in the tech tree.

 

[xienwolf]

Actually we can change unitcombat with a promotion whenever we want to, so it'd be pretty easy to upgrade them to Beast. The only challenge would be deciding precisely when to upgrade them, but with an AutoAcquire MinAge prereq it should work pretty well.

 

[TimSLS]

I really think that would help - my polar bears were bad enough, Sarisin's army of strength 14 war elephants facing off against early game units sounds really gamebreaking...Besides, taming a strength 7+ unit has got to be a different matter than taming some strength 2 wolf. Makes sense it would require subdue beast. Also, would increase the usefulnes of that promotion, which would be a good thing I think...

 

[Sarisin]

I really think that would help - my polar bears were bad enough, Sarisin's army of strength 14 war elephants facing off against early game units sounds really gamebreaking...Besides, taming a strength 7+ unit has got to be a different matter than taming some strength 2 wolf. Makes sense it would require subdue beast. Also, would increase the usefulnes of that promotion, which would be a good thing I think...

Actually, the early game War Elephants were more strength 8 and 9. The more powerful ones, like strength 14, came in the mid-later game. Still, even at strength 8 and 9, why would you bother building mounted units like Horsemen and Chariots?

Then, you have the matter of paying only 5 Gold to get these powerful War Elephants.

The key is to have the Elephants on the map available to capture. Some games they are not there. However, if they are and you have a strategy for capturing them, I think you can have yourself a very powerful Pachyderm Power going for you.

 

[Sarisin]

The computer randomly generated the Elohim for my .50e game.

I mentioned this in the last version of FF and I will bring it up again.

Is anyone able to explore with the Elohim?

That Pacifist promotion is brutal. Does it have any positives?

I mean when you come across a simple Wolf your combat odds for your Scout are 22%! Not much better with a Warrior. And, don't even think about the odds against Lions, Bears, Tigers, Spiders, Griffons, etc.

I lost 5 Scouts and a Warrior and was able to explore 1 goody hut and 1 lair.

Things don't improve much when you are able to get Hunters either. By then, the animals have become more powerful and you have the barb groups on the map.

Reducing the strength of the Elohim units by one really takes them out of the exploring game - you might as well just sit there and keep hitting Enter rather then literally sending your units to the Wolves.

I know the Elohim have some other nice features, but they get a firm thumbs-down from someone like me who loves the early exploration phase of the game.

 

[Vehem]

The computer randomly generated the Elohim for my .50e game.

I mentioned this in the last version of FF and I will bring it up again

Is anyone able to explore with the Elohim?

Same answer as before. Explore, don't attack. Use terrain as best you can and allow them to attack you. The only time it causes you any harm at all is when you are aggressively attacking units outside of your own land.

"Doctor, doctor - it hurts when I do this"
-- "Don't do that then..."

===

But to answer the question, yes, I've been able to play them successfully several times. Longest game ended up with Order Priests and Spirit Affinity Monks vs Sheaim and Calabim - RP appropriate and I did feel the need for at least a couple of wars.

Didn't finish, but Altar victory was feasible (had the first 3 or 4 levels).

 

[Sarisin]

Same answer as before. Explore, don't attack. Use terrain as best you can and allow them to attack you. The only time it causes you any harm at all is when you are aggressively attacking units outside of your own land.

"Doctor, doctor - it hurts when I do this"
-- "Don't do that then..."

===

But to answer the question, yes, I've been able to play them successfully several times. Longest game ended up with Order Priests and Spirit Affinity Monks vs Sheaim and Calabim - RP appropriate and I did feel the need for at least a couple of wars.

Didn't finish, but Altar victory was feasible (had the first 3 or 4 levels).

hahaha, I remember your response now. Please try to play the Elohim now with the new version of FF.

I dunno, but I think even if you let your Scout sit on a forested hill, he is still going to get killed by a Griffon, for example. Strength 4 vs. 1. He might survive a Wolf, but even as defending, I cannot see an Elohim Scout or Warrior defeating any other animal with that reduction of strength.

The only way to really get XP in the game is by attacking, not just sitting and fortifying and hoping to survive attacks. Also, how is that going to get any exploration done? Now that the AI actively seeks out and explores lairs, etc. you snooze, you lose. I think even if you don't attack it is not possible to evade every animal, especially those pesky Griffons, and your Scout will be quickly killed even defending as your strength is so low. Again, you only have a small chance with Wolves, but there are many more powerful animals out there now.

I know I have to go out and find the Sirona unique feature to get that Spirit Affinity, but my Scouts cannot make it very far and with a huge map, it will not be easy if possible at all.

Oh well, the good thing about FF/FFH is you can reject a civ the computer randomly selects for you and choose another.

If the Pacifist promotion is going to subtract 1 strength from the unit (negative), why not give it a positive feature too? Maybe a +1 mobility or +1 defense to assist in evading attackers or defending against them outside their territory? As it is now, I just think it ruins the exploration phase of the game for the Elohim.

I'm anxious to hear if anyone else has played them in a recent .50 game.

And, thanks Vehem for your comments. I guess we both feel the same as we did on the Elohim with the last version.

 

[Vehem]

hahaha, I remember your response now. Please try to play the Elohim now with the new version of FF.

I dunno, but I think even if you let your Scout sit on a forested hill, he is still going to get killed by a Griffon, for example. Strength 4 vs. 1. He might survive a Wolf, but even as defending, I cannot see an Elohim Scout or Warrior defeating any other animal with that reduction of strength.

Strength 4 vs 2, not 1. It's only Attack strength that's penalized - when defending they're as good as any other scout.

Checking in game (gave myself a Griffon against two Barb scouts, one with Pacifist) - 78-ish% chance to beat them in the open. 50% chance to beat them on a wooded hill. Same odds for both, Pacifist or otherwise. Odds for the Scout to beat the Griffon are pretty slim on the attack either way (22% for the non-Pacifist, negligible for the Pacifist) so the better option for *both* scouts in that case is to stay on the hill, or run to the next one as fast as they can.

With the numbers above, the scouts haven't fortified at all - just moved to the hill. If they fortify, they actually gain the advantage over a basic griffon.

If the Pacifist promotion is going to subtract 1 strength from the unit (negative), why not give it a positive feature too? Maybe a +1 mobility or +1 defense to assist in evading attackers or defending against them outside their territory? As it is now, I just think it ruins the exploration phase of the game for the Elohim.

The civ potentially has 5 traits and is the only one who can field non-hero units with a +2 affinity (albeit at considerable difficulty), as well as build units with +1 affinity relatively easily (not too hard to hit 10XP out the door with a little planning, which is enough to take a decent set of Combat promotions before they leave to get the last two levels). They also have a number of Unique Buildings that help achieve those goals and provide other benefits.

 

[xienwolf]

Strength reduction is offensive strength only, so if you are on a forested hill when that griffon attacks your base strength is still a 2, then add the 50% for forested hill and 50% for anti-animal and you have a 4 to his 5 (if young).


And Pacifist promotion is MEANT to be a downside, it is intended to balance their capability to gain a ton of traits. You gain traits by visiting locations on the map, so having the balance make exploration VERY difficult is exactly what it should be doing (especially since you know exactly WHERE to go, and thus half of the "exploration" requirement is eliminated. All that is left is reaching the location).

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Given how Hell terrain spawns units under demonic control, I really don't think that Brandaline's Well should be able to start the spread of Hell Terrain. That can send the world to hell very fast.

 

[Vehem]

Given how Hell terrain spawns units under demonic control, I really don't think that Brandaline's Well should be able to start the spread of Hell Terrain. That can send the world to hell very fast.

Only with an AV civ controlling it (or failing that, an evil civ a little later on). The AC-limits keep it boxed in quite nicely until Armageddon gets rolling, at which point it really *should* be spreading hell terrain anyway...

Hellfire tiles actually do the same thing - so they're a real issue to be dealt with, otherwise hell terrain is going to be scattered liberally to several areas of the map.

 

[far_wanderer]

I have an issue with the Barbarian trait:
It would be really nice to have a warning when peace with the barbarians is about to expire. I started a game recently and was at war with them by a few turns after Orthus spawned. Not having made contact with anyone else by that point, I had no way of knowing my score was getting so comparatively high. So it would be nice to have a warning of a few turns so I could take steps to avoid war, or at least prepare for it. This is especially important because the barbarians are not kicked out of your borders when war starts. I had only one warrior per city, and there was a lizardman sitting right next to my capital.
Actually, that brings up another point: there should be a minimum score threshold for ending peace with the barbarians, because I was definitely not "too civilized". I had two warriors, two cities, a worker, and three techs. That shouldn't count as too civilized just because the AI happened to suck that time around.

 

[Sarisin]

Strength reduction is offensive strength only, so if you are on a forested hill when that griffon attacks your base strength is still a 2, then add the 50% for forested hill and 50% for anti-animal and you have a 4 to his 5 (if young).


And Pacifist promotion is MEANT to be a downside, it is intended to balance their capability to gain a ton of traits. You gain traits by visiting locations on the map, so having the balance make exploration VERY difficult is exactly what it should be doing (especially since you know exactly WHERE to go, and thus half of the "exploration" requirement is eliminated. All that is left is reaching the location).

]

OK, I get it. It requires a change in my style of play of aggressively going after animals to gain XP and critters for my carnivals. I do see how there is an offset in balance with the other things you mentioned for the Elohim - I guess I have to play further into the game to see these.

I don't understand this though, xienwolf:

especially since you know exactly WHERE to go, and thus half of the "exploration" requirement is eliminated. All that is left is reaching the location

How would I know where to go? Please explain. I thought only the AI was able to see the map.

 

[Valkrionn]

]

OK, I get it. It requires a change in my style of play of aggressively going after animals to gain XP and critters for my carnivals. I do see how there is an offset in balance with the other things you mentioned for the Elohim - I guess I have to play further into the game to see these.

I don't understand this though, xienwolf:

especially since you know exactly WHERE to go, and thus half of the "exploration" requirement is eliminated. All that is left is reaching the location

How would I know where to go? Please explain. I thought only the AI was able to see the map.

The Elohim are able to see all of the Unique Features on the map. It's actually the reason Kael removed the option to rerun the mapscript from inside a game.

 

[Breez]

]

especially since you know exactly WHERE to go, and thus half of the "exploration" requirement is eliminated. All that is left is reaching the location

How would I know where to go? Please explain. I thought only the AI was able to see the map.

The Eholim start the game with every Unique terrain visible

You cant see anythign but the actual square (nothign in between) but you know where tehy are

I took my starting scout and hit 6 of them gaining 3 new civ traits..


(5 possible? I have GOT to try them again that game crashed/became corrupt)

 

[xienwolf]

Given how Hell terrain spawns units under demonic control, I really don't think that Brandaline's Well should be able to start the spread of Hell Terrain. That can send the world to hell very fast.

That is PRECISELY why we added the ability for improvements to modify the plot counter. So that you weren't completely depending on Hyborem entering the game and settling some territory to get any Hell at all for Demons to spawn in. (Just be glad Vehem kept me from applying PlotCounter mods to almost every improvement in the game. Things would have been interesting if I had my way. Not only pockets of hell scattered in most of erebus, but also pockets of erebus which are resistant to hell as refuge in the middle of otherwise converted lands)

And as Vehem already pointed out, Hell won't spread in unowned territory below 50 AC, won't even spread in Evil Territory until 25 AC. So unless you are following Ashen Veil, the Well isn't going to cause any spread at all. If you DO follow AV and are silly enough to get the well in your territory, you have some incentive to keep the AC down until you can complete Pax Demonica.

I have an issue with the Barbarian trait:
It would be really nice to have a warning when peace with the barbarians is about to expire. I started a game recently and was at war with them by a few turns after Orthus spawned. Not having made contact with anyone else by that point, I had no way of knowing my score was getting so comparatively high. So it would be nice to have a warning of a few turns so I could take steps to avoid war, or at least prepare for it. This is especially important because the barbarians are not kicked out of your borders when war starts. I had only one warrior per city, and there was a lizardman sitting right next to my capital.
Actually, that brings up another point: there should be a minimum score threshold for ending peace with the barbarians, because I was definitely not "too civilized". I had two warriors, two cities, a worker, and three techs. That shouldn't count as too civilized just because the AI happened to suck that time around.

We increased the score threshold to double (instead of 150%) that of the second place civ to give more breathing room. But the peace mechanic is planned to be changed completely, so I don't think we will be doing very much to try and refine the current one. (New one will be far better, and you won't lose peace without knowing in advance you are about to)