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Fall Further - The Original Thread

Discussion in 'Fall Further' started by Vehem, Feb 22, 2008.

  1. Rainbowsand

    Rainbowsand Warlord

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    Hidden nationality - why only spiders have it?
    Do other animals require to wear nation-colored collars to ensure their obedience?
    As bear is most common animal appearing (which seems unnatural to me - wolves should be the most numerous) so it is much easier to amass a pack of them and use for preventing neighbours expansion.
     
  2. Rainbowsand

    Rainbowsand Warlord

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    And i looked upon so-called 'warrior' unit and it occured to me that is no more than 'village militia'.
    And so i thought: why not to rename it accordingly, and to reduce its prod cost to 20 and make it unable to move and also limit the q of militia units to settlement size? With exc of Doviello and other commonly strong and/or fierce races, 30-40 respectively, movement inc to 2.
    So it would allow to focus on exploration with scouts enabled from the start, and add some realism - imagine armed settlers undertaking a heroic quest to the end of the world or amassing in vast hordes (which exceed the total population of their village) and embarking upon a burning crusade? (once again, with exc of Doviello)

    Btw, i was pleased to see ljosalfar great commander Uldanor appearing as Ulthuan - quite an appropriate import.
     
  3. Rainbowsand

    Rainbowsand Warlord

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    If age concept was brought upon the game, then all units should have age-and-race-based bonuses and penalties, including the increasing chance of death from an old age.

    I think it shall make the difference between expendable/powerful units more pronounced and bring more in-game meaning for the immortal races.
     
  4. King Flevance

    King Flevance Deity

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    Anyone know roughly when this mod will come out of the freeze? I am anxious to see if a new version will solve some of our multiplayer issues. I still don't get why my friend cannot see games in the lobby. :/

    I know it will probably be a while still but curiousity is bugging me. The upside for me is that he is more inclined to play regular civ online right now.

    @Rainbowsand - the most important aspect of making a game to me is balance. Ogres can eat rocks all day so long as the game is balanced and fun IMO. I would be pissed if my units just died from old age and/or got weaker with age. Immersion should never come at the expense of balance and the FFH series can do that enough as it is sometimes. There is alot to be said that my friend can tackle FfH or FF on Immortal but struggles with standard BTS civ on Prince and can only garauntee a win on Noble.
     
  5. Rainbowsand

    Rainbowsand Warlord

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    Mages and clerics should receive the same small amount of XP for spellcasting as archers do for shooting

    To Flevance: I too presume that Xienwolf haven't abandoned this mod yet - he had answered in this top not so long ago

    To Xienwolf: Please reassure us that it is so - or deny our expectations

    To Flevance: My favourite saying on this matter is that: "Want a balanced game - go play chess!" And i prefer to have fun in games not only from intellectual challenges but from the strong emotions as well - such as gleeful joy from stomping foes with mightily overpowered unit or shock and awe by witnessing a huge monstrocity or horde doing the same to me from absolytely unexpected direction. Theres also a part of a Jedi codex that says "do not form attachments" which applies to game units as well - you should be able to let go your 12 level hero whether he dies from 94% combat or old age, and drow creed that says "be ever vigilant". I may advise you to find and play the Ancient Domains of Mystery or Battlecry 3 on Iron mode - there is a deep philosophy concerning death and peril in those games that you must learn by heart.
    And i also think that "unbalanced" and "something that pisses me off" are not entirely identical concepts :)
     
  6. Rainbowsand

    Rainbowsand Warlord

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    CP should really have some scripts to build and send asap a recon unit and a stack to the location of last attack by hidden unit
    I hunted down a single spider and eaten 3 neighbour civs with little help of single warrior while having twelve more spiders in the end - and all that CP did was to replenish garrisons and send more unprotected workers once again to where their unlucky predecessors were eaten a turn ago.
     
  7. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    Work on the mod is very slow, but still occurs from time to time. Though my work is just the skeleton really. It may be that I finally finish with it to find that those who would do the meat and skin are no longer available.
     
  8. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    At the very least, you know there will be SOMEONE using it.... :mischief:
     
  9. Rainbowsand

    Rainbowsand Warlord

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    Tribal villages aka 'goody huts': always was curious what really happens there...
    See, your scout wanders into one, civ receives some gold or tech, and then the village disappears...
    The only possible cource of events imo includes scattered mutilated corpses and smouldering rubble.
    That sometimes after 'disappearance' of the village hostile warriors are spawned into vicinity quite fits into hunters returning home to their families and finding this... like scout unit feasting upon the ruins and raping women survivors. Also think about it, under which circumstances villagers shall 'give' to strangers more than a hundred of units of gold?
    And while it is perfectly fine with evil civs [from original BTS], i think for good and neutral cultures there must be an (optional) event that will cause the worker or with smaller probability a settler unit to appear in place of the village or a population increase in nearest player settlement with turn delay proportional to distance. And if the villagers are hostile then... well...
     
  10. Rainbowsand

    Rainbowsand Warlord

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    About "Conqueror" trait: i think it should be completely reverted.
    And instead of allowing to build native units it should restrict it. By turning population into slaves with a few of conquerors' nation overseers military garrison included.
    Which subsequently means that yes, conquered cities should retain their original build style by default but with some adjustments based on alignment and/or cultural differencies. To resolve some inevitable evil/good conflicts an option 'slaughter/exile and demolish alien buildings' should be added, with different implications of each case and reducing population to zero till new living settler(worker) arrives, who shall set a new inhabitants race.
    Also as the most common reason for me to demolish the city is that a CP (or even a human) had placed it into the awkward position it should be logical that a new settlement built within 2 or 3 squares of razed one shall retain some of its buildings chance based on their sturdiness (like monument vs market) and time passed.
     
  11. dommain

    dommain Warlord

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    I noticed the amount of goody hut determines the amount of certain barbarians add in spawn. Making the goody hut spawn 20% squares on largest map and then cast "For the horde" leads to some interesting results.

    I love epic battles honestly and I would not mind keeping a square of death around my home base. I find it I have the most fun doing this.
     
  12. King Flevance

    King Flevance Deity

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    Your favored saying on this matter is just a half-witted cliche quip on these forums however. (Not saying you are a half-wit, just the comment - it's internet game forum jargon for "your opinion don't count".) There are alot of games out there - especially when magic is involved - that are imbalanced. So I do not expect a perfectly balanced game from Fall Further or FfH. However, if you make units die from old age, its simple the person with the most :hammers: ouput is the strongest. Plus, do we know when they will die? Is it a set age? because one guy may drop dead from heart failure at 42 and another may last until 94 -he'll be worthless in your system but still cost money. (-1 :strength :lol: ) But even if it is set at say 80, player with the most hammer output wins. More cities = more hammers = more cities. Game speed messes with it too.

    The strong emotions I take to be immersion as to what you are trying to emphasize. Sure seeing a force unleashed on you or unleashing one on an opponent is something any strategy game can provide by the difficulty slider alone. Immersion is atmosphere. The whole ogres eating rocks thing. However, as Valkrionn pointed out earlier this mod is trying to get the player immersed into Fall from Heaven lore not lore from another setting with Ogres.

    Jedi thing sounds like Buddhist/Taoist philosophies. You'll be surprised that alot of Jedi lore could easily be based on these. Plus, IMO you sound better quoting that than a Jedi 1 liner. But at any rate this is not what I was implying anyways. Makes me think of Eric Foreman or the comic book store guy on the simpsons everytime I see someone do it. Of which it seems you have formed quite a few attachments yourself you have a hard time letting go of.

    Indeed they aren't. It's the unfun factor. If it's balanced, I am cool with it, if it pisses me off and offers no balance (old age deaths) I probably ain't cool with it because not only would it suck to have to tediously watch every individual units age every turn, it offers nothing to the game in regards to the mechanics or strategy. If I am constantly rebuilding my units when I haven't been at war all game, when can I build buildings?

    This is interesting so long as the spell casted requires a target. Otherwise, there are a few spells that equal free xp every turn. Spellstaff FTW. :D

    I know how it goes Xien. You all have some cool stuff in this mod and I like the direction. I only recently found this modmod and would love to see it flourish even more.
     
  13. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    Just thought I'd point this out... You shouldn't be surprised at all. A Daoist thinker helped write the initial three Star Wars. Would post his name, but I can't find it online and would rather not dig through my Religion text. :lol:
     
  14. Rainbowsand

    Rainbowsand Warlord

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    It seems 'unfair' to me that "Aptitude" and "Hero" promos give free xp up to the limit of 100, not the total bonus additive with xp gained by normal means. That gives an impression so hero may sit on his hands doing nothing and still grow in power and also wastes all XP he may gain till cap is reached.


    You had missed that some races of FF051 Erebus are ageless. Elves (though maybe i do err about elves here). Undead. And some do possess a longevity close to it, like Jotnar.

    About :hammers::is that not so in almost any strategy game?

    And your question about when they die provides an answer in itself: set range randomisation based upon the game speed. More detailed, it may be a promo that adds increasing cumulative chance to receive debuffs or die after a certain age and also serves as a warning.

    I am aware of that. But as i haven't read any original taoist texts and most i do know about them is "Long live the Yellow Turbans!" i cannot refer to someone who first had figured that principle. Jedi thing work for me, so i refer to it. (btw, the word "Jedi" looks like a reference to the Sengoku Jidai so shinto and chan roots can also be traceable, not to mention bushido. As a summary, "I know judo, aikido, bushido and many other scary words!")
    That is so. And that is realistic. From what i do know about students of the arcane, they constantly practice minor magicks and constantly grow in power through it. (To Valkrionn: of course we're talking about impossible and nonexistant things, so what realism i am babbling about? Truly dunno what's gotten into me, sorry)

    First, cultures that are inclined to extensive city building are generally long-lived or immortal, while those with shortest lifespan tend to live in haphazard huts or holes. Second, old-age-death of a mortal race unit may not necessary mean its removal from a game, but only a removal of all xp and gained trough xp promotions as if fresh recruits had stepped under banners (or skulls-on-sticks, or whatever) in staed of deceased or resigned veterans. Only when death happens within a city with corresponding training facs though.
    It may be even a gradual XP loss for multi-figured units.
    Btw, it had always been hilarious to me watching a 'warrior' from the stone age wandering through millenias and countless continents - Highlander, no less:)

    "You should have no other god before me" There was funny incident when some US people written into paragraph "religious confession" 'Jedi'.

    Utmostly wrong statement imo. Immersing 'athmosphere' which better be defined as "aura" of the game is not created by quantity of childish adjustments or embellishments or graphical decorations but by amount and validity of sacraments which may be used as a focus icons to commune with corresponding beings. The best examples of that i can recall are the whole Jade Empire game, lady Deirdre Skye from Alpha ahd Ethne the White from FF051.

    P.S. And a 'half-wit' is a relative concept - whose wit do thee consider to be the 'one'?;)
     
  15. Valkrionn

    Valkrionn The Hamster King

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    The issue is that's far more resource intensive; Suddenly you must keep track of how much xp has been granted by the promotion, and do so in a way that is compatible with all possible free-xp promotions.


    Assuming that by 'chan' you mean the branch of Buddhism more colloquially known as Zen (chan in china, zen in japan), yes, it has distinct roots there. Mostly because Zen is basically a combination of Buddhism and Daoism. ;)
     
  16. xienwolf

    xienwolf Deity

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    Just to edge in here FAR too late... I would have to see the precise quote for this Ogre eating a Rock thing, but I am pretty sure it is one of the Great General Quotes, and thus probably one I made up myself. If that is the one you are talking about, the Ogre is eating a rock. It is NOT a proper source of nutrition. It probably IS destroying whatever teeth he may have left. It is meant to allude to the fact that the Ogre is at a level of stupid somewhere on the other side of sentient. Either from breeding/upbringing, or just being in a few too many battles without a helmet.
     
  17. Rainbowsand

    Rainbowsand Warlord

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    Two megaroflz:
    1)Malignant Flora: (pitifully) "Auwww!"

    2)Destroyer of Civilizations. Heh. (Mind you, it wasn't me!)
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Rainbowsand

    Rainbowsand Warlord

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    Yes. That is it. I'll try to dig it out of XML...
    And here it is, from
    Sid Meier's Civilization 4/Beyond the Sword/Mods/Fall Further 051/Assets/XML/Text/CIV4GameText_GPM.xml :
    Tag>TXT_KEY_QUOTE_COMMANDER_12</Tag>
    &#8722;
    <English>
    Attack from the hills not across the river. Are you SURE you get the idea, Greeb? Yes, the arrows and walls WILL be a problem, Snod, but that's why we gave the Ogres big rocks. You say they ate the rocks, Harough? For Bahll's sake, just... CHARGE!
    </English>
    By the look of it here we have some irritated individual shouting at most likely orcs who are arguing with him about battleplans at the very start of a city assault. Great General. Heh.
    (citing my recently favoured minotaur from LFG:))
    Thank you for supporting genuine lore on ogres with your authority.
    But once again i have to repeat my arguments (who played KDP shall understand me:)):
    - Rocks that were prepared to roll/throw them down hillside and crush the walls are unable to fit into an ogre mouth so best that a brain-addled ogre can do with such is to gnaw it.
    That is an exaggerated hyperbolae as anyone who read the page on ogres i provided can conclude.
    Even the most stupid of ogres (and any great general will not bother to recruit even one of such OR keeping him in the army) is able to understand this simple logical chain: boss commanded - stash rocks now - crush walls later.

    ...The point of all that seemly pointless argument about a small and unimportant detail is as follows: this... ah... 'not clever' attempt at a joke violates the tradition set by the creators of a first FFH: each entry must contain some bit of attuned wisdom, or lore, or humor based upon these two (and preferably with some grim irony:)) So dude-styled lightly-minded entries are inacceptable if all that work in progress (which i preferred over far more sophisticated Wild Mana mod) is to remain a FfH.

    P.S. If my mentorly and arrogant writings shall become too annoying, you can tell me or ban me outright;)
     
  19. Rainbowsand

    Rainbowsand Warlord

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    True as now i see... hmm...
    Let's summarize: Aptitude promo serves primarily to allow workers gradually level up as well and though it is technically detached from their activity (have them receive XP for built improvements as if it was a combat is too difficult as well, yes?) as most of the time workers, erm, work, that does not cause too much unrealism.

    But what the meaning of xp giving part of hero promo (which is more correct to call a 'trait' and those gained through xp a 'feats' - AD&D) really is?
    That gods ve-ery slowly channel their power into a hero regardless of his actions?
    Or he like some undead leeches the lifeforce from his surroundings?
    From what i've seen of all that hero thing, it usually looks like: hero performs something mightily heroic - a quest, or a mass slaughter - and BANG! that pillar of light from the heaven smotes him straight on top of his head - lvlup.

    The gameplay reason for the promo i think is that hero must not be slain easily upon his very emergency, but also must not be an all-of-a-sudden OP tide shifter.
    So what seems best to me is to put a hero in game already with some unspent XP, make him a great general at last ('building a hero' does not befits even Barnaxus due to his storyline) - and force him to spawn ahead of generic generals generated. And yes, some heroes should have army leadership abilities.
    Maybe it will be appropriate to remove generic great generals completely (to prevent such nonsence as GG with ljosalfar origins/light agenda joining Orcs or Shehaim) and add some new culture/faith/ alignment-based heros to refill (though 5 or more Gs are by 2 or more than enough imo, and better to expand their starting leading limit and to increase by 2 and not by 1) or convert existing GGs into heroes.

    "Great general unable to attack. Heh."
     
  20. Rainbowsand

    Rainbowsand Warlord

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    Have found this right underneath the fabled ogre rock eaters entry:
    "Objections to the use of the undead in warfare are founded in misguided tradition. The air chills notably in the presence of a Wraith, need you more proof of their suitability, look only to your sons and daughters who have been spared from battle by our Conjurer's minions.
    Quite an inconsistent phrase, appears that it was sewn like a flesh golem from three or four different sentences, and it also contains its own refutation: that 'chilling air', multiplied by a sizeable army of undead, quickly renders large areas devoid of life. If that was intended as a sample of Reborn demagogue's speech, surely he would have missed wraith part and put more emphasis on preserved peace and family and lives. Shehaim would not have bothered with any justification.
    All of it, as always, imo.
     

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