Fall Further - The Original Thread

[Vehem]

Just going to repost this as it got cross-posted and then buried in the last page;

New Install Method.

Basically I'm just look for a "yes, that seems to work" or "Dude, where's your files?". It's worked fine on the two machines I've tried it on - though I'm particularly interested in what Vista makes of it...

 

[Kasdar]

I think I prefer just a Rar or Zip file

 

[Slvynn]

I think I prefer just a Rar or Zip file

for you as single person may be its easy to install from zip, but not for lot of other people, + when user install from zip alot of chances that stuff messes up.

Also there is an another issue - Mod dir should be named with same name to allow reload on mp games. The isntallartion s/b group friendly, or friendly to user that dont like / have not desire to extract thingsd by himself.
allowing manual instalation means that some % will be messed up , and most of installations will be not compatible with each other (modname).
(have already big experience of people being pissed they need to install and copy stuff manually.)

Also this install is lighter and simplier to manage. wizards pown manual extracting.

 

[Kasdar]

I guess so but I can't help remembering back to a time when people actually learned how to use their computers, instead of having everything gift wrapped for them. In the long run all this does is end up making more and more people depend on others to the "Hard Work" for them, and we end up with more and more "Computer Illiterate" people.

 

[Suuljin]

would it be far more work to offer both ways of installing?
i like to keep older versions of the modmods (nearly every save i have has a different version + nostalgic "the good ol' days, when there still was....") and the installers/wizards tend to mess up with my various versions (don't tell me i can properly install manual but am too stupid to use a wizard )

 

[Kaenash]

I guess so but I can't help remembering back to a time when people actually learned how to use their computers, instead of having everything gift wrapped for them. In the long run all this does is end up making more and more people depend on others to the "Hard Work" for them, and we end up with more and mroe "Computer Illiterate" people.

OMG.

"Yeah, let's not make it easy by using an installer..it may make people dependent on computers".

I think any attempt to make the navigation through the process simple and less cumbersome is to be applauded and as far as 'dumbing people down', don't worry, we have long since gone passed saving the world from Idiocracy. The best we can hope for while we reach that inevitable conclusion is to play some good stable modmods while it goes down the tubes.

 

[Kasdar]

OMG.

"Yeah, let's not make it easy by using an installer..it may make people dependent on computers".

It doesn't make it easier. It only makes it easier for people unwilling to learn how to use the computer.

But I regress my point wasn't to get into a flame war. Lets stop this now. Vehem asked for peoples oppinions and I gave him mine.

 

[Tarquelne]

Installation:

For simple installs (like FF) I strongly prefer zip files. Mostly because sometimes I'll want just one or two files from a package, for example, or I may want to make certain about what files are being added, and where.

OTOH, an installer can generally be given a dummy directory. It'll cough up the files there and from that point you can do what you want. An extra step, but with a well-behaved installer it's a trivial chore.

 

[Kaenash]

It doesn't make it easier. It only makes it easier for people unwilling to learn how to use the computer.

But I regress my point wasn't to get into a flame war. Lets stop this now. Vehem asked for peoples oppinions and I gave him mine.

No flame war intended.

 

[Slvynn]

No flame war intended.

agreed no flame war intended,

@ Kasdar
i think people were talking to make it most mass-usefull. Even by home sitting soup cooking grandmother wishing to kick some ass with Ethne.
the prob that the way you like not fits to most of people, and mass use of FF - it messing dir names, what brings to screwed mp games and alot of hearache, and i heard ALOT of people cursing that way. (as i said, cursing)
I dont want to hurt your oppinion, but we were talking not about personal oppinions i guess, but about how to fix all that dir name messing and installation problems, as well as mp issues. You cant blame tired player who came after job and found new release of FF, and want to play it. Very sad if he manages to launch good mp only after 40 mins of brain-&***^&% . You cant say he is stupid either. noone should be messing with those dirs if they not like it. (Esp not because you like it, get my point?) (Saw such situations)

Also more organised the patch - more pro-made it is.
Also alot of people hate patching. Give em to press few buttons. People think enough in their real life.

 

[Kasdar]

agreed no flame war intended,

@ Kasdar
i think people were talking to make it most mass-usefull. Even by home sitting soup cooking grandmother wishing to kick some ass with Ethne.
the prob that the way you like not fits to most of people, and mass use of FF - it messing dir names, what brings to screwed mp games and alot of hearache, and i heard ALOT of people cursing that way. (as i said, cursing)
I dont want to hurt your oppinion, but we were talking not about personal oppinions i guess, but about how to fix all that dir name messing and installation problems, as well as mp issues. You cant blame tired player who came after job and found new release of FF, and want to play it. Very sad if he manages to launch good mp only after 40 mins of brain-&***^&% . You cant say he is stupid either. noone should be messing with those dirs if they not like it. (Esp not because you like it, get my point?) (Saw such situations)

Also more organised the patch - more pro-made it is.
Also alot of people hate patching. Give em to press few buttons. People think enough in their real life.

Like I said I understand the reasoning for it, especially when dealing with multiplayer internet games. I would just rather educate users on how to use their computer than make it so they don't have to think.

 

[Bitwise]

Like I said I understand the reasoning for it, especially when dealing with multiplayer internet games. I would just rather educate users on how to use their computer than make it so they don't have to think.

Um, I'm quite familiar with computers and the process to install the mod and such, but I'd welcome an installer if it saves me from having to copy and reinstall FF every time it's updated for a new FFH patch. It's not an education issue, it's just an ease-of-use issue.

 

[Vehem]

It doesn't make it easier. It only makes it easier for people unwilling to learn how to use the computer.

But I regress my point wasn't to get into a flame war. Lets stop this now. Vehem asked for peoples oppinions and I gave him mine.

To be fair it's pretty much the same as my opinion - an archive is much easier to work with if you know exactly what you want to do with it. On the other hand, I also quite like the fact that the installer automatically finds and copies the existing FFH install (unless you tell it not to) before actually patching the FF over them. For most users the default options will do the job fine.

The compression job that the installer managed has swayed me a little too - I'm not sure what algorithm it uses, but it's outperforming Zip, RAR and BZip. GZipped-Tarballs (.tar.gz) get pretty close - but as that's not a widely known format outside of tech-circles I've avoided using it.

At the end of the day the aim has to be making it easy for the newcomer.

would it be far more work to offer both ways of installing?
i like to keep older versions of the modmods (nearly every save i have has a different version + nostalgic "the good ol' days, when there still was....") and the installers/wizards tend to mess up with my various versions (don't tell me i can properly install manual but am too stupid to use a wizard

Both download methods could be offered, though that would involve uploading 65-70MB rather than 25-30MB. Once I move the computer to the new house I'll investigate what the upstream is and make a decision on that (we're possibly getting the "Upto 50MB downstream" package - though I can't find any details of the upstream or the actual rates for that area).

Keeping multiple versions is actually just a case of changing the Install Directory option from "Fall Further" to "Fall Further 033", "Fall Further 040" etc. The rest it will handle for you on the default options. Just remember that MP relies on them having the same name if you do choose to change it.

 

[TheJopa]

It doesn't make it easier. It only makes it easier for people unwilling to learn how to use the computer.

This is a part of evolution and human advancement. The goal is to have to learn as little as possible in every field except for your expertise, where you learn as much as possible.

I'm sure that prehistoric men had a discussion like this when one came to the idea that part of the tribe should do all the hunting and part should focus on pottery, fishing, shamanism etc. only.

"What? My son shouldn't go hunting but only learn how to craft pottery? This will lead to decline of our tribe!!! He will depend on hunters to do the hard work, and if they die he will starve!"

And instead of dumbing down they made progress. Besides, people buy computers for their pleasure, not the other way around.

 

[Slvynn]

This is a part of evolution and human advancement. The goal is to have to learn as little as possible in every field except for your expertise, where you learn as much as possible.

I'm sure that prehistoric men had a discussion like this when one came to the idea that part of the tribe should do all the hunting and part should focus on pottery, fishing, shamanism etc. only.

"What? My son shouldn't go hunting but only learn how to craft pottery? This will lead to decline of our tribe!!! He will depend on hunters to do the hard work, and if they die he will starve!"

And instead of dumbing down they made progress. Besides, people buy computers for their pleasure, not the other way around.

quite that, just..... people so different.
as same as that old grandma that discovered FFH and her lovely Elohim, and smashing orcs bettween some soup-brewing for oldpa and fam.
Or tired not pc-workers, that just want music to play and colorfull units to move
I like education too, but i rather educate otherways that listen ceurses from other mp players
If you ask my subjective oppitninion i say unzipping is easy and cool, but not when you have deal with bunch of different thinking people.

 

[Kaenash]

This may not be the thread for this, but FFfH further is now my most favorite thread because I love this mod and what it adds.

Is it wrong to want to do an RPG based on this mod?

What I mean is like the old pen and paper Dungeons and Dragons of old, except instead of playing Questing Knights Saving Damsels in distress, each player rules a seat on the Empyrean Council and with a very modest hand-tracked system of resources are able to roleplay out the decisions in the game?

The Events are what get me. Today, I had to decide how to handle a murder case. I could see a hint of great things, if these decisions lead to a murderer going on a rampage of corruption.

It would be interesting to roleplay the kind of decisions one would make on such a council "The Bannor are simply asking for your spare Horses, so that we may train our riders..."

"Councilman Sabbathiel, I respectfully must decline, you see we of the Elohim know you will use our prize steed to make war and not just to defend your lands..."

It wouldn't be six people individually playing CIV in a MP game, it would be with a Game Master who moderated the game and introduced interesting events.

God, that would be awesome.

Am I crazy to think this?

 

[Tarquelne]

And instead of dumbing down they made progress.

And some people, not knowing anything about pots, bought some very bad pots, or took poor care of the good pots they happened to get. This cost the tribe food, which cost them people/health, which eventually got so bad they were wiped out by a sudden plague of gazelle.

The moral of the story is that while specialization is good, too much ignorance with the common tools and materials of the tribe is not.

Just what constitutes "too much ignorance" is a separate question. One that can only be answered by a fable too lengthy to post.

 

[Nicopol]

haha - life sux. What an "Explore the Dungeon" event in turn 7 next to my worker protected capital.

 

[Love]

Lol your watching soccer while playing? Awesome.

 

[Love]

EDIT: Ignore