Farmboy, I feel you

[Nexlev]

Is that a subtle dig at Jill Steins running mate?

 

[Farm Boy]

FriendlyFire, I've given it all a read. I guess I'm not really sure what to say. You all have put up with me with admirable grace for years. I don't know that I have anything particularly insightful to add, if these authors are from places like I am and they type things that sound like what I say, I guess I think it's because we aren't making it up? I suppose it's possible we're parochial class warriors, blinded to the bigger picture and interested in screaming to make sure we get an oversized piece of the pie. We're Americans, after all, our slices are grotesquely large by default. There's a venomous feeling of unfairness though, that I personally track back to the bailouts.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Its because Liberals and urban demographics dont understand what has happened to the Republican party and how people can be still voting for Trump. Especially the large rual America which seems to be (form our prospective) going crazy
I cannot fathom the prison that Rual America seems to be trapped inside when the solutions seems to be reversing all the damaging policies that Republicans have enacted. (Yes I see the irony in this because Republicans view the same about Democratic policies).

How about some real solutions ?
Because even if Republicans gain control of all three branches of government, they will just enact the same old stuff that is being done on the state level. Which will be disastrous and the blamed deflected with wedge issues.

 

[Bootstoots]

Is that a subtle dig at Jill Steins running mate?

No, but I see what she's doing by selecting him. The Green Party is overwhelmingly white, which is embarrassing for a left-wing organization. At the same time, the BLM movement consists mostly of young left-wing black people who have little faith in Democratic Party politicians (both black and white) to do anything to curb police violence. If the Greens can get the votes of BLM members, they both become more diverse and win over a potentially significant voting bloc. It's already quite likely that Stein will place 2nd among 18-35 yo black voters (for all it's worth: the result will be something like 94% Clinton, 4% Stein, 1% Trump, 1% Johnson/others in this demographic).

 

[Farm Boy]

when the solutions seems to be reversing all the damaging policies that Republicans have enacted. (Yes I see the irony in this because Republicans view the same about Democratic policies).

How about some real solutions ?
Because even if Republicans gain control of all three branches of government, they will just enact the same old stuff that is being done on the state level. Which will be disastrous and the blamed deflected.

I would guess it's actually partially reversing the damaging policies that both parties have enacted. You can't reverse them all, since many of them benefit the consumption of the urban economies in counterpoint to the production of the countryside's economies and international imports. Part of the reason Republican policies on the state level(only part mind you, but an important part) have been so destructive is that Republican state legislatures, in light of Federal policy(both Republican and Democratic), are stuck in a bidding war to woo corporate investment. In effect, what they're doing(in attempting to preserve jobs and industry, thus meaning and purpose and status, thus happiness) is bidding to see what state will make itself the biggest ****hole in order compete in a race to the bottom against imported production from the lowest wage countries we have trade agreements with. But it isn't working very well even to that mean degree. It's only working better than what the Democrats are selling and that aint much. Americans eventually balk at lowering wages and benefits(and some of the rage at regulation is when those limits are hit), and the labor(if it still has the transportation basis edge, or needful technological complication, to make it worth producing here instead of internationally) automates away or shifts to illegal immigrants.

 

[FriendlyFire]

I actually read "Pig tales" which was an examination of the Rual farming Pork industry seems to be in depth examination of one aspect of what happened to Republican states

I think it was North Carolina that developed the first pig intensive farms, and then got legislation passed to benefit big pork even as its pollution wrecked the state environment and its people. Even the creation of well paid jobs came with what is very serious health problems for it workers. Right to work states seem to be littered with injurys, insane practices and profit cutting.
We then looked at a Blue state NY in which pork farming was done in EU fashion, not only was damaging pollution minimal, environmentally much safer, more humane was better quality and sold at a higher prices. It seems insane that the south Republican states are not following what Democrat states are doing. The damage done to the states water, rivers, fishing, neighboring farms and even the workers lives are all insane self inflicted.

I can also see why White Republicans dont want to work as mexicans are, the pay might be decent but my God the conditions under which they work under are really terrible. And they way they are treated is why Big industry choose to employ Mexicans and illegals. The moment someone is hurt, the company discovers paper work showing illegality of the worker. Worker fearing deportation flees. Then there are racial problems with white supervisors

Its insane that the regulations for disposing pig waste which are worse then human feces and the health problems from breathing it in. Practically no regulations and that they way Republicans like it. Not even disastrous spills, sickness and devastated fishing industry down state changed anything

 

[Cutlass]

Thing about all that corporate welfare race to the bottom stuff, in the end it doesn't work. There are no more jobs because of it. The state's workers and residents just have to accept a lower standard of living.

 

[Farm Boy]

Thing about all that corporate welfare race to the bottom stuff, in the end it doesn't work. There are no more jobs because of it. The state's workers and residents just have to accept a lower standard of living.

That's why it's fundamentally destructive. But it's a play for time. Hold out long enough and the displacement of labor may seep into larger economies enough that fixing it becomes an actual policy goal.

I actually read "Pig tales" which was an examination of the Rual farming Pork industry seems to be in depth examination of one aspect of what happened to Republican states

I think it was North Carolina that developed the first pig intensive farms, and then got legislation passed to benefit big pork even as its pollution wrecked the state environment and its people. Even the creation of well paid jobs came with what is very serious health problems for it workers. Right to work states seem to be littered with injurys, insane practices and profit cutting.
We then looked at a Blue state NY in which pork farming was done in EU fashion, not only was damaging pollution minimal, environmentally much safer, more humane was better quality and sold at a higher prices. It seems insane that the south Republican states are not following what Democrat states are doing. The damage done to the states water, rivers, fishing, neighboring farms and even the workers lives are all insane self inflicted.

I can also see why White Republicans dont want to work as mexicans are, the pay might be decent but my God the conditions under which they work under are really terrible. And they way they are treated is why Big industry choose to employ Mexicans and illegals. The moment someone is hurt, the company discovers paper work showing illegality of the worker. Worker fearing deportation flees. Then there are racial problems with white supervisors

Its insane that the regulations for disposing pig waste which are worse then human feces and the health problems from breathing it in. Practically no regulations and that they way Republicans like it. Not even disastrous spills, sickness and devastated fishing industry down state changed anything

Two things:

First, and apologies for this, but I'm not informed enough to hold a meaningful opinion on the difference between swine economic practices in NY and NC or the impact of sewage containment protocols in different environmental zones. I'm also nearly completely dubious of agrinews without digging at the sourcing. Part of the problem bootstoots brings up from time to time is a super big disconnect in understanding between urban/mainsteam populations and rural ones. I remember ammonized beef/pink slime, Jon Stewart lying(or just stupidly wrong) about Monsanto wind-blown-pollen suits, Roundup's carcinogenic qualities, neonicitinoids and bees(we all forgot about inbreeding), the health benefits of organic foods, the evils of pasteurization, etc etc. As near as I can tell, mainstream America and its information distribution networks know about as much about agriculture as anti-vaccers know about polio. That doesn't mean real enviornmental/economic conversations don't need to happen, they do, but it feels very difficult from here(not least of which is the hurdle of my own limited knowledge(we're not all copacetic out here. Farmers and ranchers have conflicting interests and cultural spats between themselves, as an example)). I am not inclined to take most sources in good faith automatically anymore(exceptions for some land grant university programs and professors(who do often tend to be left-ish leaning(but in a ruralish not urbanish way)).

Second, the thing to remember about actual farming operations is that it's just a slice of rural America. Somewhere around 20% of us are rural(living outside towns of greater than or equal to 2,500 people). Somewhere around 1% of us are farm-dwelling. We've taken about a 50% bleed to that farm dwelling number in my lifetime. That doesn't mean the ag economy is unimportant(just concentrating wealth like everything else seems to be): we eat it ourselves and it's one of the most reliable export markets of significant size. It forms a foundational economic structure that employs people in related industries(storage, transport, processing, etc etc etc) that function not insignificantly off international sales. But, the flip side of that is it means we've automated farming hard enough that it is ourselves that tend to undercut labor in competing markets. Which is bad for their agricultural economies. Which is why I always try to acknowledge that food security is as important as military security which is why all countries should have the right to at least some significant degree of protectionism when it comes to their own food.

 

[Marius Titulesc]

Thing about all that corporate welfare race to the bottom stuff, in the end it doesn't work. There are no more jobs because of it. The state's workers and residents just have to accept a lower standard of living.

That's just the sad truth. We should just try to anticipate it as best we can.
___________________________________________________________
Marius from Industrial Installation

 

[Nexlev]

Whenever you guys get to talking about red state shitholes, I feel like I'm missing some key information. Texas has a great economy. Utah is doing really well. There are several well run GOP led states.

 

[cardgame]

Yeah and there are several awful ones too. Kansas is the primary example I believe, but you can also look at Mississippi and Alabama and Arkansas.

 

[Nexlev]

Yeah Kansas seems to be a popular state to throw out there to represent red states. I don't know much about or what makes it so deplorable.

 

[Cutlass]

Whenever you guys get to talking about red state ****holes, I feel like I'm missing some key information. Texas has a great economy. Utah is doing really well. There are several well run GOP led states.

Texas is only doing well comparatively because of oil. When oil jobs aren't booming, neither is Texas. Utah, well they're just different, and it's hard to understand why. But on average the people are better off in blue states.

 

[Bootstoots]

Texas has more than just oil; it has a high college education percentage and a pretty diverse economy. Kansas is brought up as an example of red-state mismanagement because of Gov. Sam Brownback and the Kansas GOP, who dramatically cut taxes and had it do nothing for their economy except create a giant budget crisis and force huge spending cuts for education, infrastructure, and other vital services. Jindal in Louisiana is another, very similar case of state-level supply-side economics that just caused a giant funding problem; while Brownback did narrowly win reelection in 2014 despite trailing in the polls, Louisiana voted in a Democrat last year to replace Jindal (who was term-limited).

Granted, budget crises are not unique to red states: Illinois currently has the worst one in the country as Farm Boy and I will attest, and California had a pretty bad crisis until they finally raised taxes, which actually sent them into surplus without damaging economic activity. But supply-side attempts at tax cut-based solutions don't generally do anything good for a state economy, simply causing a fiscal crisis with no net economic gains to show for it.