fascism in editor

newfangle

hates you.
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Well, I am late in the game here, but I want to here some opinions on the fascism form of government.

In my mod, my fascism has the trade bonus, minimal corruption, communism style free units, military police, draft, fast works BUT a tile penalty.

I realized that fascism would be far too superior if there was not a limiting factor like a tile penalty.

Idealy, it would be nice if fascism only lasted a certain number of turns, so it can pull a nation out of a slump (1920s Germany anyone?). Lol, maybe even every other nation automatically goes furious with you for switching to fascism.
 
Originally posted by newfangle
Idealy, it would be nice if fascism only lasted a certain number of turns, so it can pull a nation out of a slump (1920s Germany anyone?). Lol, maybe even every other nation automatically goes furious with you for switching to fascism.
That could be a good one. MPPs can hurt you, as I have found out...not directly but using it against the A.I. :D
 
Judging from the fascist government we had here for 48 years, I'd say corruption is very high.
Historically, the Govt, the Church and the High-Finance had very tight relationships were corruption ran amok.
 
Originally posted by newfangle
Well, I am late in the game here, but I want to here some opinions on the fascism form of government.

In my mod, my fascism has the trade bonus, minimal corruption, communism style free units, military police, draft, fast works BUT a tile penalty.

I realized that fascism would be far too superior if there was not a limiting factor like a tile penalty.

Idealy, it would be nice if fascism only lasted a certain number of turns, so it can pull a nation out of a slump (1920s Germany anyone?). Lol, maybe even every other nation automatically goes furious with you for switching to fascism.

Mine looks like this:

Prerequisite: Espionnage
Corruption: Nuisance
Unit Support Cost: 1
Free Units Per: Town=0, City=0, Metropolis=0
Rate Cap (Science): 70%
Worker Rate: 2
Assimilation Chance: 1%
Draft Limit: 2
Military Police Limit: 4
Hurrying Production: Forced Labor
War Weariness: None
Standard Trade Bonus
 
Newfangle,

How do you justify a trade bonus under facism? I would have thought fascist governments attract more trade sanctions than bonuses. Just interested in your comments.

Dinorius Redundicus I
 
"It's MOST original version of Fascism ever made. "

Well, actually no...

The most original Fascist Patch would have to be the Fascist Patch which was first put out by me for both Civ2 and Civ3... I was the first to release ANY government mod for Civ2, and clearly I was also the first to release a Civ3 Fascist Patch.
 
Originally posted by Wolfshanze
"It's MOST original version of Fascism ever made. "

Well, actually no...

The most original Fascist Patch would have to be the Fascist Patch which was first put out by me for both Civ2 and Civ3... I was the first to release ANY government mod for Civ2, and clearly I was also the first to release a Civ3 Fascist Patch.

Yes, Fascist patch for Civ2 was a GREAT MOD.

But making fist Fascist MOD for Civ3 doesn't make it original.
In fact your version looks to much like some sort of super governement.

And there is NOTHING original in it.

But, this version with both trade bonus and tile penality is REALY ORIGINAL IDEA.
 
Whatever... I'm not sure how having the first two Fascist Patches in Civ history is unoriginal in your book, (while the one you comment as being original is about the twentieth version of Fascism) but I'll drop it.

So tell me exactly why you think it is a "super government"... have you actually PLAYED the mod, or are you commenting off-hand?

Fascism in the Civ3 Fascist Patch has far fewer free units than Communism... it has a lower draft rate than Communism... it has a higher Corruption rate than both Communism and Democracy. It also has slave-labor to rush projects, which is very debilitating. It does not produce nearly as much revenue or science as Democracy.

In peacetime, it is clearly inferior for science and civil progress than Democracy, in all-out war, it is clearly inferior to Communism in both production and wartime capability.

Yet you so wisely declare it to be a "super government". I think you better check your facts before you open your mouth and denounce other people's work.
 
Originally posted by Wolfshanze
Whatever... I'm not sure how having the first two Fascist Patches in Civ history is unoriginal in your book, (while the one you comment as being original is about the twentieth version of Fascism) but I'll drop it.

So tell me exactly why you think it is a "super government"... have you actually PLAYED the mod, or are you commenting off-hand?

Fascism in the Civ3 Fascist Patch has far fewer free units than Communism... it has a lower draft rate than Communism... it has a higher Corruption rate than both Communism and Democracy. It also has slave-labor to rush projects, which is very debilitating. It does not produce nearly as much revenue or science as Democracy.

In peacetime, it is clearly inferior for science and civil progress than Democracy, in all-out war, it is clearly inferior to Communism in both production and wartime capabilit

Yet you so wisely declare it to be a "super government". I think you better check your facts before you open your mouth and denounce other people's work.


I was just surfing the forum and this thread caught my eye...

I just have to say that I have Civ2 and when I first saw Wolfshanze's Fascist patch I fell in :love: with it.
He does the best job in creating the perfect FASCIST PATCH.
I use his settings...
And I got to say, original or not, if you don't like it, well you can always change to your standards. No big deal.;)

On Civ3 I used also Wolfshanze's fascist mod,but I changed from forced labor to paid, my preference.:)

And there is no such thing as Super Goverment.
It's the goverment that you feel better playing with your civilazation. (Sometimes I never change my goverment and keep despotism or just Monarchy and stiil win the game :D )
 
I thought I'd offer some further explanation of the tile penalty, and minmal corruption. Just a side note that this is a more Nazi style of fascism.

Tile penalty is there because the government devotes a huge amount of resources in supporting its military (mostly food). This is also the reason for free units.

Second, the corruption is set to minimal. Think about how much the German populice stood behind its government. Fanatical nationalism must reduce any desire to steal from the motherland. In Mussolini's case where people would give up their wedding bands in support of their government.

And yes, my fascism is the most balanced in the game, not that other guys.:crazyeye:
 
Well, if you're trying to BALANCE the government form, that is differant from trying to be historically accurate.

If historical accuracy is what you're striving for, you obviously don't read very many history books, because Fascist Germany was one of the most corrupt regimes in history, and Fascism as a whole, is by it's nature, corrupt.

"Tile penalty is there because the government devotes a huge amount of resources in supporting its military (mostly food). This is also the reason for free units."

You might want to start brushing up on a few history books. The German government, may have dumped money into the military (they certainly did), but to say they did so at the cost of the civilian population would be ubsurd... in fact, Germany, of all the major beligerants in the war, was the LAST Major power to fully mobilize for war.

Germany was still producing a lot of luxury items for it's populace, when Britain, the Soviet Union and America were all on full-scale mobilization and rationing out everything to their populace... what was Germany doing? Still making fur coats, racing tires, and almost no rationing at all.

As for food, Nazi Germany once again, wasn't rationing like the Americans, British or Soviets were... most of what the German military did was ravage the lands it invaded, but it wasn't spurred by domestic restraint... to use the tile penalty for balance may be one thing, but to say they have free military units because it's historically accurate shows a complete lack of understanding of the social and economic structure of Nazi Germany in WWII... one must actually understand Germany before one starts making lame and baseless comparisons as a reason for something in a mod.

"Second, the corruption is set to minimal. Think about how much the German populice stood behind its government. Fanatical nationalism must reduce any desire to steal from the motherland. In Mussolini's case where people would give up their wedding bands in support of their government. "

Where are you learning about Nazi Germany? On the back of a box of crackerjacks? Corruption at MINIMAL??? HELLO!!! EARTH TO REALITY, COME IN....

I feal bad enough as it is, setting Fascist corruption at Nuisance, I would have put it higher, but I needed to keep it lower for game balance issues.

Let's talk facts here, not myths spurred from comic books. Nazi Germany was corrupt. PERIOD. Nationalism reducing the desire to steal from the motherland? Didn't happen... in fact, if anything, Fascism caused a ton of theiving, hoarding and rampant corruption... as I mentioned, I bent the rules as it was to make Fascism a viable choice, but to have the LOWEST CORRUPTION, then turn around and say it's "historically accurate" is pure B.S. and shows no education at all based on fact.
Let's give a little history lesson shall we, as it would seem at least some people around here need one. Fascism is built on a premis of competition... such a fierce competition, that those on top, continue to have those under them feed off of each other to keep them from rising to the top... redundant and overlapping offices and sectors of the government is not only un-rare, but down right commonplace and expected... take for instance the rocket program, which was split between the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe... both were researching rockets, both were seperately funded, and both researched the same principles, but due to Fascist competion, neither shared in each others success or failures and neither would clue the other in to their own work. You call that EFFICIENT? You think there's little corruption in that? Now how much further do you think the German Rocket program COULD HAVE BEEN, had they pooled all their resources together, instead of fierce in-fighting between branches? How about the Army? Why were there two armies... the Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS... except these two fought for the same resources, and fed off each other. Police was similarily split between Gestapo, SS, and traditional Police units... efficient or rife with redundancy and wasteful programs.

Italian Women giving up their wedding bands? Okay, and American kids were collecting iron cooking pots left and right. All nations had their patriotic moments, certainly the .5 grams of metal from a wedding band didn't make the Italian government more efficient, and to be honest, the steel pot drives in America were more for show than effect, as none of these programs accounted for more than a fraction of a tenth of a percent.

No, the reality is, Fascism is inherantly corrupt, and to make a statement otherwise is to show a complete lack of understanding of the political situation in the 1940's.

I can't fathom giving Fascism unlimited free units as this mod-maker has done. Germany NEVER had the largest standing army at any time in the war, compared with the US or Soviet Union, who fielded much larger armies and were capable of doing so for a longer time... Germany, was never economically in a position to wage a long-term war, and was, in fact, by it's very own self-proclaimed strategy, designed from the ground up to support, quick, small, lightning-wars (aka Blitzkrieg), not a long-protracted war.

As for game balance, I haven't played this mod, so I will not flatly state something I am not educated on, but by hearing what has been used, UNLIMITED FREE UNITS, MINIMAL CORRUPTION, countered ONLY by the tile penalty, this sounds a much stronger government than my own interpretation of Fascism, which is hobled by limited free units and nuisance-level corruption.

What I can say is that the author of this mod has a lot to learn of the realities of Nazi Germany, and might want to pick up a few books and start reading about the geopolitical situation inside Germany during the war to get a better understanding of just how Fascism works.

I myself took liberties with Fascism for gameplay balance, but I did not do them without a basic understanding of the true nature of Fascism.
 
Originally posted by Wolfshanze
Where are you learning about Nazi Germany? On the back of a box of crackerjacks? Corruption at MINIMAL??? HELLO!!! EARTH TO REALITY, COME IN....

I've said this before: Are western democracies not corrupted? Do you personally have faith in your politicians?

Not defending Fascism here, but, c'mon... earth to reality, my ass. Certainly Nazi Germany wasn't lovey-dovey, but if "democracy" is given minimal corruption, then I think so should "fascism". Just MHO. I think we're looking through rose-coloured glasses in one direction, and not even looking in the other.

Personally, I just renamed Communism to Totalitarianism, and it's perfect for me.
 
I have mentioned multiple times in the past, all governments have had bad histories, and people who abused the power.

Still, corruption is a seperate issue, and by it's very nature, Fascism is far more capable and easily turned corrupt than several other forms of government.
 
I've made a fascist government in my private Civ3 mod, and it works quite well. I thought I'd make a government for civs that want to wage war not peace, since that's what fascism is (in part) all about - militarizing everything and everyone. Fascism doesn't exactly promote free enterprise but it tolerates it, and a large part of the nation's wealth is spent on the military forces - that's why I chose to set high unit support levels (3 per town, 5 per city, 10 per metropolis) but took away the tile trade bonus. I look at it this way - it's not that the economy makes less profit, it's just that this profit is slated for guns and shells, not for bread and butter.
Max military police is 6. You can build longbowmen or any other cheap unit to garrison your cities, your budget will be able to bear it... or even better, build Militia. (4/3/1, 2x10 shields) That's my SA/Blackshirt unit, good for little other than bludgeoning enemies of the state and conquering Ethiopia-like backwaters. It comes with Nationalism.
And to distinguish it some more from Communism (which it resembles in many points...) rush jobs are paid for in money. Worker efficiency is at 3 - that makes the workers as effective as under democracy. To balance communism and fascism, I decided to make spy missions MUCH cheaper under communism and prohibitively expensive under fascism. Even investigating cities costs a fortune now.
 
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