Fascist Patch for Civ3

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Originally posted by Hitro
Sgt Zimm: Nazism is (or was) fascism, the German Fascism to be precise. Unlike communism, fascism is no common ideology, the different movements which were later referred to as "fascist" evolved more or less at the same time. Mussolini took over power in the early 20ies, at that time the Nazi Party already existed. In 1923 Hitler's coup attempt failed. The word "fascist" originates in the Italian movement, but was soon applied to others (in particular the German movement) too. In general fascists are people who believe in strengh as the basic value. Furthermore significant for the fascist system(s) was the leadership of one (and only one) leader as head of a centralist government.
Besides these (basic) facts there is no general definition of fascism. The Nazis were called fascists, that doesn't mean they were exactly like Mussolinis blackshirts, but the word "fascism" has been used as a broader definition from the beginning, so that means it can also be modeled after Germany in the game.

And Wolfshanze's definetily right about taking Hitler as the leader. He is by far the best known fascist leader.

Sorry, Hitro, you are making the same mistake as all of the others who consider Nazism and Fascism to be one in the same.

The word Fascist originates (as was said earlier) from the Roman Fasces, which symbolized a Roman government official's power.

Fascism, while it does support the idea of a centralized government, does not entail leadership of that government by one man, thats Despotism friend.

Fascists are people who place loyalty and responsibility to the state above all else, including family, friends or religious creed. They do not inherently value strength above all else. To put it simply, Fascism is an attempt to instill a military like cohesive loyalty and fraternity to the entire "unit" (state), in essence to live for the state.

Again, just because the Nazis were called Fascists at the time, does not mean they were fascists in character. I would consider Nazism to be a more "refined" version of Despotism: unquestioned rule by a single individual, enforced by the army and/or paramilitary groups (i.e. brownshirts).

Look, I'll concede that Nazism definitely has fascist characteristics (nationalistic pride, military-like loyalty to the state, elevation in social class of the armed forces, etc) but Nazism has several other characteristics which divorce it from Fascism (a cult of personality around a single leader, persecution and elimination of minorities, etc).

The fact that Fascism is (mistakenly) use so broadly is both annoying and idiotic. Its just as stupid to refer to Russia's current government as being democratic (when its clearly not, considering its run largely by organized crime, the "Russian mafia".)

As for Hitler being the best known Fascist leader: He is, if you get your entire understanding of Fascism from coffee-table books and the equally slap-dash popular press. But in truth, Hitler was a despot, not a fascist. Just as Catherine the Great, Stalin, Quadafi (spelling?), Hussein and so on were/are despots.

Oh, on a more philisophical note, the idea of having a single man at the top is not espoused by democracy, fascism or communism like it is in Despotism and Monarchies. Rather, I think it arises simply out of 1) Human tendencies for grabbing power, and a need to see power concentrated in one man (its easier to follow a defined "leader' as opposed to an impersonal/ethereal ruling body like "the senate") and 2) a need to get things done; hard to do when government power is so diffuse (look at the existence of a President in the US, lots of power for one man.)
 
I completely support what Ironfang & Further wrote.
There are SO MANY dark moments in human history, but just cause we dont like them we can ignore it. Maybe a game where there is no war, no nucs, military units, just a bunch of civilizations coming together singing Kum ba ya would be more to some peoples liking-NOT ME :)

Civ is a GAME - it lets you live history in a sort of way, think about it, what more can you want then to crush those evil tyrants through out our history?!:)
 
"...Rather, I think..."

Exactly, and you stand alone on this... everyone is entitled to free thought, but simply because you think a thing, does not mean you are correct.

Despite "Sgt Zimm's" confused thoughts, if he were to bother opening up ANY DICTIONARY OR ENCYCLOPEDIA, he will find under the word/subject FASCISM... referances to Nazi Germany.

Then again, we should throw out all literature, and just go by what Zimm says.
 
I guess nazism is fascism as much as soviet communism is communism. If one base itself on another, it makes it similar doesn't it? Nowadays when one think of communism, they think of the soviet union. Same goes with facism. Anyway, I don't understand why some of you are criticising the swastika. It's just a symbol and it appears in our history books and our documentaries. How come nobody seems to care about that? No book burning procession like the nazis had?

In fact I don't see why we have to argue over the definition of fascism and nazism and all. Why don't you all just let it go? It's just a mod. Don't waste your time arguing please, and let's just continue discussing about the mod. If that's not what you have in mind, then find some other thread to discuss what ever you're interested in discussing rather than wasting your time arguing, ok?

Peace...
 
Again, there is no common definition for fascism (on the contrary there is one for communism, dating back to Marx). Fascism has no general ideology, so how can you say the Nazis weren't fascist. Who is a real fascist then? I can only assure you that among all reasonable historians in the world the German fascism is not much else than Nazism.
So it is right that the Soviet Union wasn't really communist but the Nazis were as fascist as you can get. Take a closer look at the structure of German society in the thirties and you will cleary recognize it.
 
Originally posted by Wolfshanze
"...Rather, I think..."

Exactly, and you stand alone on this... everyone is entitled to free thought, but simply because you think a thing, does not mean you are correct.

Despite "Sgt Zimm's" confused thoughts, if he were to bother opening up ANY DICTIONARY OR ENCYCLOPEDIA, he will find under the word/subject FASCISM... referances to Nazi Germany.

Then again, we should throw out all literature, and just go by what Zimm says.

Yup, nothing like getting your entire definition of Fascism from a dictionary or encyclopedia. Adequate for a low grade high school paper perhaps, but not for a true understanding of the topic. Try looking at indepth essays, research papers and entire BOOKS on the subject.

I'd suggest "The State: Duty and Loyalty" by R.Z. Tolman or "The Modern Despot" by J. Saravan.

That being said, there is a host of literature to contradict everything I've said like "Discussions on 20th Century Government" by S. Hawk.

Originally posted by Hitro
Again, there is no common definition for fascism (on the contrary there is one for communism, dating back to Marx). Fascism has no general ideology, so how can you say the Nazis weren't fascist. Who is a real fascist then? I can only assure you that among all reasonable historians in the world the German fascism is not much else than Nazism.
So it is right that the Soviet Union wasn't really communist but the Nazis were as fascist as you can get. Take a closer look at the structure of German society in the thirties and you will cleary recognize it.

I've already acknowledged that Germany had several Fascist characteristics and already defined my interpretation of Fascism, no need to repeat myself here.

Anyways, no point in trying to get everyone to agree, that would be boring, and ultimately fruitless without some sort of hypno-ray.
 
Even a Hitler Jugend knows what it is to be a Fascist. You're all alone in your own personal world... I pointed out that even at a high-school level it states that Fascism relates to Nazi Germany, which you can't even comprehend that level.

For the record "Sgt Zimm" (and you certainly didn't earn any stripes, I've at least earned mine in the real world), I've been studying Nazi Germany for nearly 30 years, and have read everything from "Inside the Third Reich" to the "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", with about every major referance there can be found on the subject and maintain my own personal library that takes up a full room on the subject...

and you know what Mr Zimm?

Every one of those publications speaks of Germany and the Fascist roots.

Funny, even the Germans called themselves Fascists... yet you are so freakin' brilliant that you're the ONLY PERSON in the whole freakin' world to know better than the people themselves.

What a genius.
 
Originally posted by Wolfshanze
Even a Hitler Jugend knows what it is to be a Fascist. You're all alone in your own personal world... I pointed out that even at a high-school level it states that Fascism relates to Nazi Germany, which you can't even comprehend that level.

For the record "Sgt Zimm" (and you certainly didn't earn any stripes, I've at least earned mine in the real world), I've been studying Nazi Germany for nearly 30 years, and have read everything from "Inside the Third Reich" to the "Rise and Fall of the Third Reich", with about every major referance there can be found on the subject and maintain my own personal library that takes up a full room on the subject...

and you know what Mr Zimm?

Every one of those publications speaks of Germany and the Fascist roots.

Funny, even the Germans called themselves Fascists... yet you are so freakin' brilliant that you're the ONLY PERSON in the whole freakin' world to know better than the people themselves.

What a genius.

Yeah! thats the way to do it! Personal attacks and macho chest beatings about "earning his stripes." Did I at any moment say I was even in the Armed forces? Perhaps I'm part of some paramilitary force, or maybe I'm a politician or maybe I just deliver newspapers! Oh, how will I recover from you horribly bashing my screen name! *swoon*

Assuming you were educated in the good'ol US of A, I imagine you are speaking of the high school level of understanding ofFascism as it relates to the education system of the United States. Well, its widely known that the US has one of the poorest education systems in the western world. If you did attend school in the States, I'm sorry, it must have been difficult learning half truths and propoganda about the evil "commies" in Cuba and other threatening nations like it. Don't take this as bashing the States, its just the truth of their education system.

And kudos on quoting two books. Oh wait, those titles have been used in a host of documentaries, books, and magazine articles. So quoting them without the authors has no meaning.

You've got your own personal library eh Wolfshanze? And all of the books agree with your view. That's convenient. At least I've bothered to read material that opposes my views. It's called being open-minded.

Originally posted by Wolfshanze
...but due to my present predicament (I'm fighting for Uncle Sam in Saudi Arabia), I have no access to my website's server, and am not allowed to upload files anywhere, so until I return stateside (in January)...

I applaud you "fighting for Uncle Sam" during this time of crisis. But just who are you fighting in Saudi Arabia? Aren't they one of your allies? Its interesting that although your "fighting" you still have all of this time to post messages even though you're in the field...

But I suppose being part of the armed forces has unfortunately left your critical thought withered and useless. Oh wait, the current recruiting slogan is "An Army of One", right?

That means your actually independent and free thinking. Yeah! Yo Joe!

Just because they had Fascist roots and beginnings, does not mean that the final product was anything resembling Fascism. I cite (as many others have) Stalin's "communism," something that was completely different from what Marx originally proposed.

Oh, the horror of differing opinions....
 
its nice to come here and see people have an interest in history and the world around them. This debate on what Fascism is even got me looking up things trying to learn what exactly it refers to. The main debate here got started cause of the Fascist Mod for the game. Some people felt it was too pro-Nazi, some thought it was a part of history so why ignore it. Hitler, part of me likes taking him on in the Mod, and another part of me doesn't like the German People represented by him (Dont know what they think, but I doubt it would be positive). Love him or hate him, he did play a HUGE role in the previous century. The cold war, the Berlin Wall, the nation of Israel, and so many other things were impacted by Nazi Germany. In the end I believe that such Mods for games are perfectly fine, I mean we see the German Nazis always cast as the evil villians in Movies. IN my opinion that is no different with this Mod, its entertainment, doesnt mean we are rooting for the bad guy, as I stated earlier its fun kicking some Hitler butt!

Curious about something, what is different between a Military Dictatorship and a Fascist governement? In particular I am wondering what category Mustafa Kemal Ataturk would fall (he is the founder of the republic of Turkey)

anyway I got to get back to my game..... "Kum Ba Ya my lord, Kum by ya!" :)
 
Ok... I think we have all overlooked something...

Just because Nazi's are considered (by many) to be Fascist, does not mean that all Fascist Goverments are Nazi... wether you believe that Nazi Germany was a Fascist goverment or not is topic for debate somewhere else... really...

The topic for THIS debate is wether a Fascist goverment has a place in this game, which, I believe everyone can agree, does... as much as a Nuclear Missle or any other thing that might have been a part of the World we have lived in as a whole...

And yes, I believe that Hitler was the most powerful Fascist leader we have had on this World, like him or not, at one time he was a military genius, and, if he had not gone crazy from VD, he might not have been such a bad leader for Germany.

thats my .02

RoY
 
like him or not, at one time he was a military genius

Whoa there! Hitler was never a military genius. I can't imagine anyone thinking that, and not just because of his blunders. His successes and failures IMO were purely intuitive, and gutsy, never strategic or tactical. One does not in time become less of a genius in time, but is rather exposed as an incompetent or amateur.

I am truly amazed that a thread could be seven pages long and still not have resolved anything at all, not even the definition of fascism. Wolfshanze is absolutely correct, in that Nazism (even though it has it's own "-ism") is German fascism. A label is just a label, but here is why, very clearly: Fascism holds that the state is greater than the individual, and idealizes the glory of the past as a model for the future. IMO Italy AND GERMANY fit this example.

This is the spirit common in all "fascist" governments by definition. Again, a label is just a label.

My biggest pet peeve is this: When liberals and left-wing protesters use the label "fascist" as the kiss of death. Signs reading:"(SO AND SO) IS FASCIST" etc. What is so much more inherently sinister about fascism over, say, communism?
The point I'm trying to make is not the usual "Stalin killed more people, so he's more evil than Hitler", because frankly that's a ridiculous statement, but rather that on paper, why do people forgive communism as a good system gone bad due to human nature, when Fascism, IMO, falls under the same catagory?

This may make me target in this thread, but-- To say democracy is the best form of government is the declaration of a cynic. Fortunately, I am cynical, but to condemn an idea because of how it is practised? Remember the Crusades? or the Inquisition, anyone? Or Child-molesting Priests? Why, with such a brutal history is the church still legal? And why are we not having a 7 page debate over the advance of "Monotheism"?
 
Originally posted by teturkhan
...Curious about something, what is different between a Military Dictatorship and a Fascist governement? In particular I am wondering what category Mustafa Kemal Ataturk would fall (he is the founder of the republic of Turkey)

anyway I got to get back to my game..... "Kum Ba Ya my lord, Kum by ya!" :)

Fascism = live/work for the state. Loyalty to the state above all else. No cult of personality around one leader.
Military Dictatorship = live/work for the military General (insert typical dictator name here, Krul for example) otherwise the army will make you disappear. Loyalty to the great General otherwise he'll "bust a cap in your ass"... course that phrase doesn't really work for a Dictator.

As for Kemal Atatijrk, I confess I do not know too much about him beyond his sweeping reforms of Turkey and his role in WWI. Based on my sketchy knowledge of him I would say that he's a benevolent despot, but don't quote me on that (although with the track record of people in this post, they probably will; they like quoting sentences taken out of context.)

Another interesting historical figure to pursue, thanks teturkhan!.
 
Originally posted by dannyevilcat

Whoa there! Hitler was never a military genius. I can't imagine anyone thinking that, and not just because of his blunders. His successes and failures IMO were purely intuitive, and gutsy, never strategic or tactical. One does not in time become less of a genius in time, but is rather exposed as an incompetent or amateur.

[STEPS ON SOAPBOX]
According to history books, Hitler had a IQ around 163... and that puts him on genius level. He was a military leader... soo that makes him a military genius, just by strictest definetion...

He contacted a VD that ate away at his brain, and caused him to go crazy, and with that craziness, he lost his focus and ability to control his government.
[/STEPS OFF SOAPBOX]

And, actually Communism, if done CORRECTLY would have been the best form of government... IMO...

RoY
 
[PUSHES LORDROY OFF SOAPBOX] ;)

Hitler was successful as a war-time leader. He was a failure as a military leader.
Also, I have studied Hitler, and I have no idea of this VD of which you speak. It seems to me to be just another theory of a Hitler biographer. (Which by the way, I'm interested in reading, if you can give me the book and author. :) )

[LIGHTS HIMSELF ON FIRE AND RUNS SCREAMING OFF SOAPBOX]

And, actually Communism, if done CORRECTLY would have been the best form of government... IMO...

Sure, but why not Fascism? there is nothing wrong with putting interests of the state before your own, is there? In an ideal world, that is... IMO, at least...
 
True Fascism would be wonderous... now wouldnt it... SO.... shouldnt it be in Civ games... where, you could do it correctly...?


RoY:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
*PUSHES EVERYBODY OFF THE SOAPBOX*

The statement about Communism "if done properly" being the best... yes, in a dreamworld, but by the very nature of man, Communism simply can't be done "properly" (if by properly you mean as written by Marx). The entire world would have to be communist, not one nation, and everyone would essentially have to be honest and never take more than needed... these cornerstones of Marxist Communism simply put it so far off into dream-world, that it simply can't exist in reality, so simply put; "true" Communism is impossible to achieve, unless man himself is "perfect".

Now speaking of Fascism and putting the needs of the state over the individual... I quote:
"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"

So does that make John F. Kennedy a Fascist leader?
 
Originally posted by Wolfshanze
For the record "Sgt Zimm" (and you certainly didn't earn any stripes, I've at least earned mine in the real world)

I'm really enjoying the irony, considering the type of society that Heinlein was so clearly parodying in "Starship Troopers". :lol:
 
Originally posted by Wolfshanze

Now speaking of Fascism and putting the needs of the state over the individual... I quote:
"Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"

So does that make John F. Kennedy a Fascist leader?

Rhetorical question perhaps, but what the hell, I'll blatantly ignore its intent and comment upon it anyways...

The quote, taken out of context is Fascist. JFK isn't a Fascist. Obviously you have to look at his entire record to come up with a fair assessment.

A decidedly poor attempt at supporting your point and an excellent example of shoddy historical analysis.

More off topic

Originally posted by Witchfinder
I'm really enjoying the irony, considering the type of society that Heinlein was so clearly parodying in "Starship Troopers".

Just curious friend, how do you interpret ST as being Heinlein's parody of said society? My interpretation was that he openly advocated that societal model.

I'd be interested in seeing your reasons...
 
Very interesting mod, seems to get alot of comments as well :). Hmm went little off the subject of the mod and it all went political. Mind is I ask is the mod any good? I like an even mix of goverments avalible to me and the AI. Seems a little tense so i'm not sure its okay I just jumped in there heh.
 
Finally! A cool head like KALIROB2k2. :D
Well it is pretty good if you want to experiment with that file called civ3mod. It's also a pleasent break from the pre-packaged governments. I even work the government into my government regeme. Despotism for Ancient Era, Monarchy for Middle Ages, Fascism for Industrial Age and Democracy or Communism for Modern Age. Forget The Republic! Too corrupt for my tastes. Well ya know, I'll try to fit The Republic into Industrial Age later.
 
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