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Fastest Science Victory

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lightning5555, Feb 14, 2016.

  1. psparky

    psparky Prince

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    In game, you are seeing the actual beaker cost. This is calculated from the base cost by multiplying by factors based on map size (1.1 for standard), game speed (1 for standard) and (maximum held) number of cities, and as you say reduced for known civs that have discovered it. The base costs are defined in one of the xml files (can't check just now). You can also see them in the civpedia, although the numbers there have been adjusted for map size already, so in a standard game, the base cost is 10/11 of the number shown. In my games, it's not unusual for the actual cost to be around double the base cost.
     
  2. beetle

    beetle Deity

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    Thanks again @psparky for the clarification. I certainly had not been paying attention to difference between in-game actual cost and the nominal base cost of the tech. There have been many times when I thought it was safe to bulb (even though I had only two or three turns of research) because the displayed actual cost seemed high enough, but it did not feel like I was getting all the beakers I should have. I shrugged those off. Now I think those have been times when, as you say, the actual cost was around double the base cost, so I was throwing beakers away.
     
  3. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    With the Rationalism policy +10%, 3 turns of tech is worth >3/8th of the GS bulb. It is possible for a tech to say 3 turns to completion (i.e. <3 full turns worth of beakers) and bulbing will not waste any beakers. With minor factors during the previous 8 turns like population growth and switching citizens to work trading posts or new specialists slots (ex. Stock Exchange), this can be the case a decent amount of the time.

    In a particularly fast science game, it can be optimal to bulb GS for less than full value. Probably some mentions of this earlier in the thread re: quick Plastics to finish.
     
  4. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    Hey @Blatc, I cracked that! Turn 122 science victory on Settler: http://dos486.com/civ5/bnwx3/


    My comparables:
    T60 Education (after Great Library to Currency), built universities
    T69 Astronomy, 3 Rationalism policies right away including Oracle, 4th a few turns later
    T92 Sci Theory (with no bulbs), bought 12/12 schools
    T103 Plastics (two bulbs), bought 7/12 labs
    T118 6th natural GS, Pisa and Porcelain
    T119 Hubble and Oxford for a last-column tech
    T120 bought all SS parts
    T122 finish
     
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  5. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    T-hawk, not quite a direct comparison given the Large size map settings; I'm not familiar with larger maps to know all the advantages or disadvantages, beyond the obvious that you had more ruins and more room to settle. Maybe someone more familiar with different map settings can explain the comparison between standard and large maps.
     
  6. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    Well, yeah, that's pretty much it. More space for ruins and settling, and for all 41 city-states to cluster on the north and south edges. There's minor differences in tech cost and the per-city modifiers for anger/tech/culture, but nothing really significant. What else would you want explained?
     
  7. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    What are the specific differences for tech and culture when switching to a large map?
     
  8. T-hawk

    T-hawk Transcend

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    Culture penalty per-city is 10% on a standard map, 7% on large, 5% on huge. Tech penalty per-city is 5% on standard, 3% on large, 2% on huge. The base cost of techs also increases with map size; I don't know exactly but it's on the order of a few percent.
     
  9. psparky

    psparky Prince

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    The map size multipliers are 1.1 for standard and 1.2 for large, so comparing large with standard is about a 9% increase.

    Although the game does refer to the base cost as including these map multipliers, it isn't the same 'base cost' used in the overflow cap. Perhaps it would better to refer to the one used for overflow cap as base-base-cost or maybe raw cost, as it's just the fixed number taken directly from the xml.

    I do think the developers did a good job of balancing the different game speeds and map sizes in general.
     
  10. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    psparky and T-hawk, please let me know if these numbers are correct:
    Tech 'A' with a raw cost of 100 would have a base cost of 110 on standard size map and 120 on large size map. If tech penalty per expo is multiplied off the base cost:
    Tech 'A' with 6, 8, or 10 cities on standard map would cost 110 x 1.25 (5 expos x 5% each), 110 x 1.35, or 110 x 1.45
    6 cities = 125 + 12.5 = 137.5
    8 cities = 148.5
    10 cities = 159.5

    Tech 'A' with 6, 8, or 10 cities on large map would cost 120 x 1.15 (5 expos x 3% each), 120 x 1.21, or 120 x 1.27
    6 cities = 120 + 12 + 6 = 138
    8 cities = 120 + 24 + 1.2 = 145.2
    10 cities = 120 + 24 + 8.4 = 152.4

    If using the same # of cities on each map, the tech costs are about even at 6 cities, after which a large map shows an increasing advantage as you add more cities.

    If the tech penalty is multiplied off the raw cost of 100, then it's a straightforward +5 or +3 beakers per expo
    Tech 'A' with 6, 8, or 10 cities on standard map would cost
    6 cities = 110 + (5 x 5) = 135
    8 cities = 145
    10 cities = 155

    Tech 'A' with 6, 8, or 10 cities on large map would cost
    6 cities = 120 + (5 x 3) = 135
    8 cities = 141
    10 cities = 147

    The 10% beaker map tech penalty is fully cancelled out with the 5th expo (2% less penalty per expo); 6 cities is still the breakeven point, with the large map gaining more advantage as # of cities increases.

    These numbers indicate that with 10 cities on a large map, beaker costs are reduced by >4% vs. a standard map if multiplying by base cost, and they are reduced by >5% vs. a standard map if multiplying by raw cost. Obviously, there would be other considerations to take into account in terms of the overall game, some factors with fixed costs (cost of spaceship parts) and some with non-fixed costs (culture and happiness).
     
  11. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    The tech cost multiplier affects the adjusted base cost, and the capital also gives the tech penalty, so with 6 cities on standard size the tech would cost 110*1.3 beakers.

    Let base cost be 1 beaker, then the tech cost formula is

    1 + 0.05 * n on Small
    1.1 * (1 + 0.05n) on Standard
    1.2 * (1 + 0.03n) on Large
    1.3 * (1 + 0.02n) on Huge

    Quick table for 1-15 cities
    Code:
    n	Sm	Std	L	H
    1	1,05	1,16	1,24	1,33
    2	1,10	1,21	1,27	1,35
    3	1,15	1,27	1,31	1,38
    4	1,20	1,32	1,34	1,40
    5	1,25	1,38	1,38	1,43
    6	1,30	1,43	1,42	1,46
    7	1,35	1,49	1,45	1,48
    8	1,40	1,54	1,49	1,51
    9	1,45	1,60	1,52	1,53
    10	1,50	1,65	1,56	1,56
    11	1,55	1,71	1,60	1,59
    12	1,60	1,76	1,63	1,61
    13	1,65	1,82	1,67	1,64
    14	1,70	1,87	1,70	1,66
    15	1,75	1,93	1,74	1,69
    
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2017
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  12. psparky

    psparky Prince

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    I believe vadalaz's method and table is correct. :thumbsup:

    In the XML, the per city penalty for large maps is 3.75%, but this gets truncated in game to 3%. It's possible the author of this file didn't realize this truncation would occur, and actually intended the value to be higher.

    For completeness, I'll mention the other factors in calculating actual tech costs. Game speed multipliers apply (and also completely change the way the overflow cap affects the game), and there is a discount for each met civ that has discovered the tech and more with scholars in residence (which I guess you don't get any benefit from in the settler level games being discussed :) )
     
  13. BlackWizard

    BlackWizard King

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    Fantstik tablets
     
  14. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    What's the fastest time for a HOF style SV on Deity these days?
     
  15. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    There have been 11 HoF games T200 or faster, led by Vadalaz T181 with Spain, which imo really put the #1 spot out of reach.
    HoF Deity SV Dec 17 2017 standard.jpg
     
  16. consentient

    consentient Domination!

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    Yeah that's really hard. I remember playing one of the maps you guys submitted where literally everything went right for me and I still couldn't break T200. Something like 5-7 workers from Pedro and religion and perma DOFs...congrats on T188, that is savage!
     
  17. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    Consentient, you would likely appreciate the very aggressive style that Vadalaz employs in the T181 Spain and T193 Hun SV games; maybe take the time to read the General Log included in the HoF listings and details posted earlier in this thread.
     
  18. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    Following the discussion of large versus standard size maps, I've played around with some of the 'smaller' map styles on the large setting. The following is using the non-HoF eligible style that T-Hawk and I have posted about (i.e. maximum CS, 1 AI, save policies).

    My first full play-through was with 7 cities, attempting to compare with my 7-city T125 finish on a standard map. I was able to shave 5 turns off, for a T120 finish.

    My second full play-through I went up to 9 cities; I had experimented with 10, but preferred 9 on this particular map, even though it left 1 expo so far away that I never connected to the capital. The result was a T115 Science Victory, with the following milestones:
    T57 Education via Great Library. Built 9/9
    T68 Astronomy, 4 Rationalism policies immediately
    T84 Sci Theory (1 GS bulb), bought 8/9 with the 9th a few turns later
    *I did not use Oxford on Radio, electing instead to use 2 more GS between Sci Theory and Plastics on T92 (grabbing Radio) and T96
    T97 Plastics bought 6/9 with 1 each on the next 3 turns. 13 turns from Sci Theory to Plastics
    T111 6th natural GS. Finished PT, and LToP
    T112 Finished Apollo and Oxford. Use GE on Hubble
    T115 finish! 18 turns from Plastics to finish.

    For those familiar with the frustration of the city tile selection, note in the screen shot my capital grabbed multiple 5th ring tiles before any of the 3rd ring riverside hills.

    If anyone has questions about the strategy involved, let me know what aspect you'd like more details on.
     

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  19. yung.carl.jung

    yung.carl.jung Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious

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    absolutely revolutionary. I genuinely didn't think this possible, kudos for trying and succeeding, I'm in awe. was the start insanely good or just good? maybe I would try n play the same map if you still have your t1 save.
     
  20. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    I've attached the T0 save.
    I have rolled an absurdly high number of maps in pursuit of fast SV times. This non-HoF T115 (large) map had a notably weaker capital than my T120 large map finish, but better expos overall. My T125 standard map finish - should be a screen shot earlier in this thread - also had a stronger capital than this most recent game, but as illustrated in the post by Vadalaz above, the large map has a clear advantage in reduced tech costs.
    Worth noting that I had a nearby Mt. Kil in both my fastest Large and Standard games; this helps speed things up, though I wouldn't say it was game-breaking, considering it's also possible to get an early faith wonder and early El Dorado gold.
     

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