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Fastest Science Victory

Discussion in 'Civ5 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lightning5555, Feb 14, 2016.

  1. Chum

    Chum King

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    Yep, I pledge everyone and the diplo hit for telling other civs to bugger off might as well be nonexistent.
     
  2. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    I'm fooling around with the Poland map Babinski posted, trying out some different strategies (and trying to match his incredible game!). I struggle to include a 5th city smoothly and am unable to match his total population by the end.

    Are there any examples of fast SV that included domination to gain additional cities?

    Similarly, has there been any concerted effort at a fast SV strategy attempting to maximize Patronage ASAP?
     
  3. Babinski

    Babinski Chieftain

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    I usually never build archers but I think valadaz does and makes it work :). There is better stuff to build so I try to make good use of my 3-4 scouts+warrior. I dont do any wars later on so building archers just for barb camps feels like a waste to me but sure, IF many camps nearby, I might bye one.

    Try to be one step ahead of AI and camp the camps at t30+, when camp quests start. Park scouts and try to steal camps before AI as they hammer down the defender.

    I allways pledge to protect straight away. Diplo hit small.
     
  4. Babinski

    Babinski Chieftain

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    Nice to hear others playing my map :). What struggle do you experience with 5th expo?

    There is a youtube clip of tommynt doing a sub200 SV on imortal, where he takes a couple of cities to reach 2000+ science. Search his account. Valadaz has a HOF game SVt195 with domination aswell.

    I think IronFighterXXX likes going Patronage (scholasticism) before Rationalism. His game with the Shoshone, also sub200, had a good number of CS allies early on. Perhaps you meant maximising filling the tree tho?
     
  5. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    I find the timing really awkward with a 5th city, though I recognize this could be lack of practice. On this map, I also struggled with the negative diplo for founding too aggressively.

    I just finished a 4-city Tradition attempt with Patronage focus. With replays/previous map knowledge, I'm T193 SV. The first 4 policies went in Tradition (happiness/gold as 4th), then 4 in Patronage with Consulates 2nd and Scholasticism 4th. I finished Tradition and got a 5th (+happiness) in Patronage before Astronomy/Rationalism. After 4 in Rationalism, I finished Patronage. I did not build Oracle or Statue of Liberty, nor did I propose WF. I never built any happiness buildings, relying on CS and some trades. Building circuses likely would have been smart.

    Main differences: your peak science is ~100 higher and you would have had stronger bulbs. As I was pouring gold into CS, I built all Universities, all Observatories, 3/4 schools, but bought all 4 labs (had Big Ben, but only added Mercantilism for the spaceship parts). I likely had stronger science ~T100, with 30-40 from City States. I made it to Scientific Theory T132 without planting or bulbing GS. Oxford Radio and bulb 1 GS for T161 Plastics.

    The great people gifts introduce a luck factor. I could see a hybrid game including 3-4 in Patronage and a 5th city being faster.

    As I didn't build Oracle or buy University, my first GS came T109 I think it was and I elected not to plant, as I hoped to be done in 80 turns (ended up 84). Made me wonder: how many turns out from expected victory is the breaking point to plant or not plant?

    I'd like to try violent SV relying primarily on Holy Warriors on this map.
     
  6. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    I have a couple of such games on HOF:

    T195 as Poland, 4 city Trad/Lib + took 4 cities with crossbows: http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/game_info.php?entryID=10693
    T201 as Spain, 6 city Liberty + took 1 city with crossbows, should've taken more to finish sub-200: http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/game_info.php?show=general&entryID=10554

    I tried a few times with Arabia on Great Plains, but the one time I had a decent map, I made the mistake of attacking too early. Should've gone Universities first, Chivalry second. The AIs' cities I took weren't that great, should've given them some more turns to develop, plus ideology happiness was still too far away. In the Poland game I think I took the 4th city around T135 and got my ideology around T142, so that was pretty good timing.

    Manpanzee also had a T201 Korea game where he took 2 cities from Babylon with artillery: http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/game_info.php?entryID=10173
    Perhaps a Foreign Legion + Cannons push is also viable. If you don't plant any academies, New Deal is useless so that frees up a Freedom tenet.

    Were you trying 5-city NC or 4-city NC + 1 city later?
     
    MAGA likes this.
  7. poxpower

    poxpower Prince

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    What kind of starting location do you look for to get the fastest times?
    If you do great plains, do you ever get to start near a mountain? Is that even necessary?
     
  8. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    What was diplo like for your warmongering?

    I mainly tried 4-city NC + 1 city later, as Babinski had done; found the timing for the rest of the game a struggle and population of the expos were much lower than his. I did try a 5-city NC on this map, but that really pissed the AI off and they double-DOWed.

    Edit: Vadalaz, please don't mention anything specific to that Poland map; I'd like to play it without previous knowledge.
     
  9. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    I bribed the AIs to attack each other constantly. Bribing and declaring war afterwards is very effective, AIs are stuck fighting for at least 10 turns because of the deal, while you can make peace after 5 turns. And since they're at war with multiple AIs and CSs, they keep losing units, which makes their army score low enough that you can get some very nice peace deals. Bonus points if you can bribe AIs to attack their friends, nobody likes backstabbers, so they get more hate than you do. In the end I did get double- or triple-DoWed but it didn't matter, I had enough units to repel any attack and all the relevant CSs were my allies.
     
  10. Babinski

    Babinski Chieftain

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    I built a 5:th settler in my first expo, finished a couple of turns before NC in capital. Timing should be to build it after your library. Tried that?

    I also didn't bulb anything except Radio with Oxford. I had a couple of GS left at t193 and a RA:s coming in at t195, I think. If I had remembered to sign a RA with Gandhi 5 turns earlier and started bulbing earlier I would have had sub 190 easy. I think you would have had a stronger game, finishing Tradition first, then scholasticism (and maybe consulates) before entering Rationalism as early as possible.
    What was your science at t100? I also made it to schools in low 130:s, but with higher pop yes? How many RA:s did you sign? I remember I had a couple of civs not giving me RA:s until very late (including Gandhi).
     
  11. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    Yes, in one play-through I built settler after library in first expo; I also had 1-2 attempts were I didn't protect the 5th spot and AI got there first. Other than sending a food caravan to 5th city early on, do you rush-buy any buildings? It feels so far behind, without monument/aqueduct and several pop lower.

    I expect a big difference I'm not mentioning is that I didn't sign any RAs. It keeps things simpler, but I realize I should get some that will coincide with having PT finished. This may not be a concern in my SV with war attempts :)

    T100 science, after opening Rationalism, was 201 (154.4 from cities, 31.6 from CS, 15.44 from excess happiness). City pops 17, 11, 10, 10.
     
  12. Babinski

    Babinski Chieftain

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    Interesting. It shows that different tactics can produce good results :).

    As for the 5th expo, I didn't rush-bye any buildings. I went Monument, Granary, Library and University (to start oxford in time for Radio). After that, or if I can fit it in sooner, I build food buildings. 2 workers helped out. Plan after that was to build anything with specialist slots rly, to fill after plastics.

    I guess early RA:s are too expensive if you used much gold on CS:s to get those numbers at t100. But I do agree it sounds lika a viable tactic to focus on Patronage and CS. CS:s just gives you so much bonuses in different fields.

    Also, you were much faster than me to Astronomy and Rationalism. I can't see why, but I researched Engineering before Astronomy. At t100, I researched Astronomy-6 turns to finish. I had Unis in all cities except 5th city where I just finished Library and only 169 science (160 from cities and 9 from trade routes). Pop was 18,11,11,8,5. I think it would have been better to go for an early Astronomy but I still reached schools at t134 and after that Plastics 162 without a bulb. So, my investment in a 5th city payed of in the second half of the game.
     
  13. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    I tried out 5 cities again (4 NC + 1, built in 1st expo after Library). In 5th city, I started Monument and Granary (normally do) but fit in 1-2 more buildings before Library/University, while still getting Oxford for Radio. This time, I grabbed construction and built happiness buildings. T101-ish Astronomy then straight to Printing Press, but I didn't notice someone else beat me to it, founding WC and building LToP T12x! I was faster to Sci Theory, 129 or 130 this time with no plant/bulbs, but a key difference is my aggressive expansion led to double-DOW again. I put gold into upgrades (units from Military CS) and bought 1 knight and eventually got 2nd city of Eastern civ in peace deal and captural capital of SW civ (also got city in peace deal, but sold it). So, now up to 7 cities, but the 2 new ones didn't come online until ~T180. I didn't pay enough attention to faith and wasn't going to have 3,500 at the end, so between that and missing LToP I definitely wasn't improving on T193. Also, less CS emphasis meant I wasn't able to finish Patronage, so no GP gifts.

    Next up, I'll be aiming for a very bloody SV attempt using Holy Warriors, with 4-city Tradition and Patronage emphasis. I don't expect to have many friends to trade with late game, but that means I can propose Science Funding. With a good # of CS allies early and going Oxford-Radio before first vote, I should be able to get it through on the first round.
     
  14. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    Is the 5th city really that big of a difference maker?
     
  15. Switch80

    Switch80 Chieftain

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    So I had a quick look at Babinski's Poland map on Saturday and here's what happened (from what I remember).

    Stole a few early workers From Banth and the Dutch got a little unlucky with x2 workers as were stolen by barbs then CS captured before I could recapture them.Think I had only 5 workers overall.

    First food caravan to cap was T58 but the next 2 were sometime later as I messed up on the science tech.

    Got 4 city NC by turn 84. Education was around 107.

    Had a few happiness problems So decided not to build 5th city. Recently went cultural diplomacy policy for huge happiness boost. Just about to hit rationalism.

    Cities are small for this turn time I know. Should I use GP to spread my religion? I don't know.

    Anyway, I've attached a couple of screenies for you to pick apart if you will. Can I still win this?

    *Note* I didn't pay as much attention to this game than I should have done as I was hungover!
     

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  16. Babinski

    Babinski Chieftain

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    Nice. So, without the DoW:s and the unlucky loss of LtoP, you had a better game this try. Like I said earlier in the thread, I was lucky with the circumstances around the game, had no such unluck. Good luck with your warmonger plans :cool:
     
  17. vadalaz

    vadalaz Emperor

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    It buffs up your bulbs considerably and you might get an extra GS out of it. Whether that makes a difference or not depends on your playstyle, map and difficulty level, I think. For an RA-heavy game with Scholasticism and very good population in the first 4 cities, it may not help at all, e.g. in Babinski's T193 game he ended up with 2 leftover GSs. Blatc managed to match the T193 result with 4 cities with early Scholasticism.

    Personally I think 7-8 cities is the sweet spot on standard-sized maps on Prince and above.
     
  18. Babinski

    Babinski Chieftain

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    For me it was. I am a one trick pony tho :D. I have played a lot of science games with different versions of Freedom strategy and I noticed a big difference. But its requires a good map, so be prepared to roll and roll....and roll....
     
  19. Blatc

    Blatc Prince

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    I'd say yes, 5th city is a big difference maker: Babinski went T193 with 2 GS left and no replays - that is far superior to my game, IMO.

    Some factors to consider re: expanding beyond 4-city (Tradition, SV):
    *are your cities on the coast (internal food via cargo ships). If yes to all, 4 cities can be stronger. In this case, 'no' to all points towards 5+ cities
    *does your civ have a food bonus? Not many do. I'd lump in with this whether Hanging Gardens is an option. Also Temple of Artemis, which I like to get if possible, but that (for me) likely involves a lucky start, ex. Spain map where you can buy 2/3 settlers.
    *is there room to expand? Does it require parking units (perhaps missing CS quests) to get that spot? Will it piss the AI off and get you double-DOWd?

    Within the confines of the game, a lot can come down to timing, and this is where I've struggled. Adding 1-2 cities after NC means they are 30-50 turns behind, potentially impacting when you want National Epic, Oxford, or Ironworks, not to mention being a drain on resources (if you buy buildings for them) or using up 1-2 food caravans that would otherwise go to capital. Oh, and let's not forget about happiness issues.

    The ironfighter map should have taught us a fair bit about the value of timing in adding new cities, though those came online immediately. Factoring in the growth period for self-founded and resistance period for captured/peace deals, I think a rough guideline for a sub-200 SV game would be to self-found before T90 (i.e. 1-2 after NC) and to capture/obtain from peace deal between T100-T150.
     
  20. stormtrooper412

    stormtrooper412 Peacemongering Turtlesaur

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    Generally, I have had more success with 4 rather than 5 cities as the 5th tends to tank my happiness and not really give much in return. My fastest SV ever was a T205 with Liberty Spain, so I wouldn't really know
     

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