Fastest Science Victory

[Notacop]

It sounds like you're losing some turns after education and during the post plastics bulbing.
What is your tech and social policy path after education? What techs are you using Oxford and rationalism finisher on? Are you spending any gs bulbs in between education and plastics? How many gs are you producing? Should be around 15-16 (8 or 9 natural gs, leaning tower, porcelain tower, hubble, 2 or 3 from faith).

I'm also curious how you generated great merchants. Are you putting citizens into your scientist specialist slots are soon as you have universities/public schools/labs? When are you putting citizens into the other specialist slots? You should always have the scientist specialist slots staffed as soon as their unlocked. With 2 slots from the university early on, your gs points should greatly outnumber any merchant or ge points you have for pretty much the entire game (at least on deity). I generally don't fill the merchant slots until I'm gearing up for the post plastics bulbing unless I have no other tiles to work.

Once your in the industrial era, you can predict how much faith per turn you need in order to buy 2 or 3 faith gs. Carrying over some faith into the industrial era and having reliquary will help lower your required faith per turn. The fastest games usually get 3 faith gs. Having a map that's favorable to generating enough faith is sometimes necessary to get sub 200 games.

 

[Olle Wernersson]

@Notacop

I got another PB attempt and tried to document some more:

GS: 15 (9 natural, 2 religion, 2 hubble, LtoP, PT)

edu - 113 (went workshops first, bought 0/4 unis)
LTOP - 139
Globe theatre - 143
Taj mahal - 154
lost Sistine chapel 154 would have gotten it 159
Scientific theory - 161 (1 bulb, bought 2/4)
PT - 163
Big ben - 183
Plastics - 190 (2 bulbs, bought 4/4)
world fair won 191
SoL - 193 (religious engineer)
Rationalism finished to get satilites - 220
apollo - 231
hubble - 233
all scientists gone with one tech left (fail) - 237 (would have finished 249)

Tech path after education:
Printing press -> Banking -> architecture -> Astronomy(to meet other civs and cultural CS) -> Scientific theory -> radio(oxford) -> industrialization -> plastics -> railroad -> satelites -> nanotech -> particle physics>

This time no great merchants were made and we got religious GS but somehow still didn't beat PB, maybe salt is just that good? I did put citizens into science specialist slots as soon as ready except unis where I waited some turns in some cities to get more growth. all specialist buildings are completed and all slots are worked in that turn 237 picture. One misstake that I know I did was not working the marble in the capitol when making NC and Oracle, otherwise I thought I played well and got a map with 4 city locations and Uluru. I didn't get religion is that something that you should get? I got the culture in pastures pantheon for some good early culture but then england and theodora converted my cities.

I only got RAs with england as theodora was far behind and I couldn't get friends with the other civs, maybe I should go diplomat spies to get more RAs?

Thanks for the help!

 

[cocls]

@Notacop

I got another PB attempt and tried to document some more:

GS: 15 (9 natural, 2 religion, 2 hubble, LtoP, PT)

edu - 113 (went workshops first, bought 0/4 unis)
LTOP - 139
Globe theatre - 143
Taj mahal - 154
lost Sistine chapel 154 would have gotten it 159
Scientific theory - 161 (1 bulb, bought 2/4)
PT - 163
Big ben - 183
Plastics - 190 (2 bulbs, bought 4/4)
world fair won 191
SoL - 193 (religious engineer)
Rationalism finished to get satilites - 220
apollo - 231
hubble - 233
all scientists gone with one tech left (fail) - 237 (would have finished 249)

Tech path after education:
Printing press -> Banking -> architecture -> Astronomy(to meet other civs and cultural CS) -> Scientific theory -> radio(oxford) -> industrialization -> plastics -> railroad -> satelites -> nanotech -> particle physics>

This time no great merchants were made and we got religious GS but somehow still didn't beat PB, maybe salt is just that good? I did put citizens into science specialist slots as soon as ready except unis where I waited some turns in some cities to get more growth. all specialist buildings are completed and all slots are worked in that turn 237 picture. One misstake that I know I did was not working the marble in the capitol when making NC and Oracle, otherwise I thought I played well and got a map with 4 city locations and Uluru. I didn't get religion is that something that you should get? I got the culture in pastures pantheon for some good early culture but then england and theodora converted my cities.

I only got RAs with england as theodora was far behind and I couldn't get friends with the other civs, maybe I should go diplomat spies to get more RAs?

Thanks for the help!

salt is very huge, especially if you only have 4 cities. if you want to win the game more consistently, you can try to get more than 4 cities.

Sweden's gameplay heavily relies on waging wars and gaining benefits from them, as you need to generate Great Generals and gift them to city-states. I wouldn’t recommend beginners to start with Sweden, It’s a very strong civilization, but it really requires mastery of both developing yourself and waging wars to fully utilize its potential.

The continents map isn’t very suitable for pursuing a fast science victory, especially for Sweden. Sweden needs to meet all city-states as early as possible to leverage its UA advantage.

 

[Olle Wernersson]

I wouldn’t recommend beginners to start with Sweden, It’s a very strong civilization, but it really requires mastery of both developing yourself and waging wars to fully utilize its potential.

It's exciting to hear that Sweden is strong I clearly have many things more to master and I hope I can do this while playing Sweden as it is my civ of choice, for now I'm trying to master the mastery of developing myself without wars but I am open to learning about wars too. interesting to hear that continents might not be optimal for fastest SV, I started playing continents as that seemed like the most "standard" choice and now it is what I am used too. I also like the idea of playing the most standard settings if there is such a thing.

Assuming continents, I have been thinking, maybe going astronomy right after education is suiteble to meet other civs and city states faster, I can direcly put a diplo spy to get friends and thereby faster great people and RAs, and gift the first Great Writer to a cultural city state I meet and continue to gift great musicians to other city states and gifting gold with a patroanage focus game. Perhaps this could be a way of making continents work for Sweden?

 

[Notacop]

Nice job Olle, gs generation and turn milestones looks better. It's unfortunate that didn't turn into a better finish, but that's how it goes sometimes. I think your losing some turns post scientific theory, my guess is this is due to only 4 cities. More cities helps speed up this part of the game, especially the post plastics bulbing. I'm very surprised you were able to get globe theatre and taj mahal. Those are tough to get on deity, nice job. With 4 cities, I probably wouldn't bulb scientific theory and spend Oxford and two bulbs for plastics. Instead I'd save the bulbs for post plastics, maybe spending Oxford and one bulb for plastics and none for scientific theory. RAs can be good if you have spare gold. I usually spend all my gold on tiles and city states (rightly or wrongly) so i can't comment too much on RAs.

I agree with cocls. I understand the appeal of playing with a civ you like on a map type you like, just know that you may not get sub turn 200. It's hard enough with a good science civ on a good map. In general, good science map types are great plains (most common and my personal preference), great plains plus, lakes, highlands, inland sea, and pangea (needs more luck but can generate great maps) with young world age for more hills and mountains. I like arid and hot settings for more desert for the desert folklore pantheon, but to each their own. If you are looking for a map with some breathing room, inland sea is a good one to try. Its great for growth, plenty of space, but early game might be a bit slower than great plains.

I don't have much experience with Sweden, so I'm not sure about the general strategy of gifting great people. I typically don't have any great people to spare, maybe one great artist if I get chichen itza. Another route you can take is to be friends with as many AI as possible to get extra great scientists, similar to Babylon.

Fast science games on deity generally follow 2 strategies: 1. Peaceful 3-4 city national college with 1 or 2 expansions after, for a total of 5-6 cities (space, happiness, and diplomacy permitting) 2. 3-4 city NC and conquering a few cities around education for a total of 6-8+ cities (again depending on happiness and diplomacy). More cities generate gs faster, have bigger bulbs meaning they need less gs post plastics, and reach plastics from education faster. The key for both is to reach education as soon as possible to start generating gs points. Workshops before education is likely a mistake for 4 cities. After education, your next tech will depend on when your next policy comes. You'll want to time reaching Renaissance with your next policy. Sometimes that means being able to get guilds and engineering and then going to astronomy, other times it means getting acoustics asap. Getting secularism soon after education will help get scientific theory closer to turn 140-150.

 

[cocls]

It's exciting to hear that Sweden is strong I clearly have many things more to master and I hope I can do this while playing Sweden as it is my civ of choice, for now I'm trying to master the mastery of developing myself without wars but I am open to learning about wars too. interesting to hear that continents might not be optimal for fastest SV, I started playing continents as that seemed like the most "standard" choice and now it is what I am used too. I also like the idea of playing the most standard settings if there is such a thing.

Assuming continents, I have been thinking, maybe going astronomy right after education is suiteble to meet other civs and city states faster, I can direcly put a diplo spy to get friends and thereby faster great people and RAs, and gift the first Great Writer to a cultural city state I meet and continue to gift great musicians to other city states and gifting gold with a patroanage focus game. Perhaps this could be a way of making continents work for Sweden?

Many years ago, I achieved a science victory with Sweden on a Pangaea map in around 200 turns (maybe 203T?). It wasn’t even a particularly good map (I remember it didn’t even start with mining luxury). The basic strategy was to start with the Liberty left branch, rush to Construction, and begin wars with Composite Bowmen. I typically settled 5-6 cities myself and then captured some additional ones. The Great Generals and any Great Prophets captured from wars were gifted to city-states to secure alliances. If the city-state alliances were going well, I would skip the right side of Liberty and switch to the left side of Patronage. Before turn 100, the most important city-states were mercantile and maritime ones, especially the latter. The number of maritime city-states directly impacted the SV speed.

Generally, when playing Sweden for a science victory, the Great People worth gifting to city-states are Great Generals, Great Admirals, Great Prophets with only one use left (or captured ones), and Great Musicians. The value of other Great Person is almost always higher than the 90 influence, so they shouldn’t be gifted. You mentioned gifting Great Writers to city-states—that’s almost certainly a mistake.

I haven't played Sweden on Continent. I guess I would start with tradition 4 cities, then beeline Machinery after Education and use Crossbow to conquer a few cities, then meet other civs and city states, use the new luxury resources traded from them to support happiness for conquered cities.

 

[Olle Wernersson]

Thanks for the help and tips you people, I got another pb attempt done:

GS: 17 ( 10 natural, 3 faith, 2 hubble, LtoP, PT)

3 city NC - 84
5 cities (one captured, got one great general) - 94
Education - 108 (bought 0/5)
Lost Sistine chapel - 131 (would have gotten 135)
Secularism - 144 (1 GW bulb)
LtoP - 156
Scientific theory - 162 (1 bulb for LtoP, bought 1/5)
PT - 169
Freedom - 176
Lost world fair - 184 (was 100-200 hammers away from Arabia and Morocco)
Plastics - 196 (1 bulb, bought when I had money)
SoL - 218
Apollo - 236
Hubble - 238

fail turn 239 and still 4 more turns for last tech and not enough gold (only managed to buy 2/6 parts, played it out and won 252)

Mistakes:
- Forgetting to steal workers for CS early game
- Going Acoustics directly after education when I would have had time to go Astromony for rationalism opener (I didn't even get Sistine chapel)

So I tried a war against Austria and with moroccos help I actually managed to take Vienna with 3 Composite bowmen and some warriors/scouts. From the war I got a worker, Great General and 2gpt from peace deal. This led me to have 5 cities which might be how I got 10 natural GS in the end which is nice, but I had some happiness and growth problems. I tried to go education before workshops and I don't know how I feel about it, on one hand I still didn't have enough science and on the other hand I never got the time to build ironworks now and it felt like I had very low production and lost world fair.

Questions for you people:
- When you capture a city how do you know when to create puppet/annex?
- Is international games the best to propose after world fair to get DoF?
- does trading open borders increase chance of DoF?
- Is the spy game like this: You go steal tech if you can, city state spy if you need money, diplo spy if you need DoF?
- can you only sell one building in one city per turn?
- For religion, when is Tithe+Swords into plowshares not the play? It just always seems like the right choice to me

For my next attempt I might just reroll to get salt or fountain of youth or something like that haha

 

[Notacop]

Nice Olle, looks like your progressing. I can provide some general tips and answer your questions. 1. If you want to keep the city, you can puppet until the resistance time is over and then annex it. If you don't want it, I recommended razing it, selling buildings each turn or selling it to the AI. If you select raze, you shouldn't get the tech and culture city penalty. 2. I typically finish the game before voting on the second proposal, so I just propose anything, usually world ideology with my ideology as the choice. 3. I'm not sure, I try not to give open borders to the AI because I don't want their units in my territory. 4. I usually send my first spies to AIs I know have techs that I don't. You can tell by the tech cost being lower than others in the same column, or if they built a wonder from that tech. Once I get closer to scientific theory I usually can't steal anymore, so I send spies to cultural cs that I'm not allies with. 5. Correct.

It looks like you only have 3 unique luxuries in your first cities, copper, marble, and orange, with Vienna getting spices. You need more luxuries to support 5 cities. This might be a continents map generation issue, usually you can get 5 luxuries or so with 3 cities. If you are conquering cities, you will probably have to make coliseums and circuses in your cities, and you'll want pagodas or the garden/Temple happiness from your religion. You'll most likely need to trade for the AIs spare luxuries, and try to ally any cs with a luxury you don't have. You might have to check the diplomacy screen every turn to catch when an AI gets a spare lux to trade, otherwise they'll trade it away.

You fell off the turn count after plastics. You should be able to finish the game 30 turns after plastics. From the screenshot and your past posts, I think the main reason your turn count slips is due to late workers and low growth. I think playing on a faster map type like great plains would solve some/all of your issues. Continents is just a slow map in general, I would recommend using a different map type. Slow growth means less science output which will lag your turn count. Getting your food tiles improved sooner can lead to an extra pop or two working more food to grow faster, and snowballs as the game goes on.

In your screenshot, you have 5 cities and are making 998 science per turn and 4 gold per turn. Did you sell your science buildings? Are you working trading posts? Maybe you sold all your gpt to the AI for loans? Did you build all the specialist buildings and are working all the specialist slots? Your science and gold are pretty low for 5 cities and a freedom game, which is why the end got away from you.

My suggestion would be to try out maps that have been posted here and compare your actions to others. Ones like the Babinski Poland map, Poxpower Spain map, and Vadalaz Spain map off the top of my head are good ones to try and experiment with. That way you know the maps are good enough for a fast science victory. Garmeth also made a video of the Babinski Poland map, you could check that out to see what he does and how you can improve.