Yes,
exactly. Why Scy12 feels it's necessary to turn an off-hand comment into a bitter, pointless and thoroughly idiotic squabble is beyond me. I never once said that he shouldn't be a leader- I quite accept that he should be the first choice for a Greek leader- all I said was that, strictly speaking, he was not truly Greek. You may disagree with this assertion, I understand that, but what
exactly is so wrong with that you need to start spitting and screaming like a small child? For someone who "does not have the appetite for a long debate" you've managed to start one quite well.
If you insist, here's some proof:
Wikipedia-
Macedon Note
"This contrasted sharply with the Greek cultures further south..." i.e. a distinction is made between the Macedonians and Greeks
Mymacedonia.net-
Alexander the Macedonian Note "But, Greek cities, like Athens and Thebes, which had pledged allegiance to Philip..." i.e. a distinction is made between the Greeks and the Macedonians.
Wikipedia- a map of
Ancient Greek dialects.
As you can see, Macedon is not included as a Greek-speaking region, whatever languages the Macedonian aristocracy used. (Remember that large areas of Europe used French for centuries.) You'll also note- despite your earlier assertions- the Minoans were not a Greek group, having been long-extinct by the point that a Hellensitic national identity developed. As the map shows, Crete become a Doric region.
Yes, exactly. Why Scy12 feels it's necessary to turn an off-hand comment into a bitter, pointless and thoroughly idiotic squabble is beyond me. I never once said that he shouldn't be a leader- I quite accept that he should be the first choice for a Greek leader- all I said was that, strictly speaking, he was not truly Greek. You may disagree with this assertion, I understand that, but what exactly is so wrong with that you need to start spitting and screaming like a small child? For someone who "does not have the appetite for a long debate" you've managed to start one quite well.
If you feel this is a screaming contest then you are observation meter is quite off. It would be a screaming contest if i answered " You are an Idiot , go away ". or " Your formula hinges on an incorrect fact- that Macedon was part of Greece- and so is rendered incorrect. In the same vein, any formula that starts black=white is incorrect. "The fact is my answers are filled with evidence that support the historical reality you ignored. I didn't notice any screaming from my side ,only the presentation of those evidence. I understand you don't like this. If you don't want to debate , alright .
If you insist, here's some proof:
Wikipedia-
Macedon Note
"This contrasted sharply with the Greek cultures further south..." i.e. a distinction is made between the Macedonians and Greeks
Mymacedonia.net-
Alexander the Macedonian Note "But, Greek cities, like Athens and Thebes, which had pledged allegiance to Philip..." i.e. a distinction is made between the Greeks and the Macedonians.
Wikipedia- a map of
Ancient Greek dialects.
As you can see, Macedon is not included as a Greek-speaking region, whatever languages the Macedonian aristocracy used. (Remember that large areas of Europe used French for centuries.) You'll also note- despite your earlier assertions- the Minoans were not a Greek group, having been long-extinct by the point that a Hellensitic national identity developed. As the map shows, Crete become a Doric region
Wikipedia-
Macedon Note
"This contrasted sharply with the Greek cultures further south..." i.e. a distinction is made between the Macedonians and Greeks
Woh ... If you are going to quote from a source better to quote the whole passage. Must be like the previous "Herodotus lived after Alexander mistake"
Another archaic remnant was the very persistence of a hereditary monarchy which wielded formidable – sometimes absolute – power, although this was at times checked by the landed aristocracy, and often disturbed by power struggles within the royal family itself. This contrasted sharply with the Greek cultures further south, where the ubiquitous city-states mostly possessed aristocratic or democratic institutions; the de facto monarchy of tyrants, in which heredity was usually more of an ambition rather than the accepted rule; and the limited, predominantly military and sacerdotal, power of the twin hereditary Spartan kings. The same might have held true of feudal institutions like serfdom, which may have persisted in Macedon well into historical times. Such institutions were abolished by city-states well before Macedon's rise (most notably by the Athenian legislator Solon's famous σεισάχθεια seisachtheia laws).
A different governmental system of rule between the Kingdom city of Macedon and other southern Greek states.
Understandable as Macedon was not as Hellenized as it was under approximately the time of Philip. It goes without saying that they would keep their govermental type. The difference here is a label. The Macedonians did call themselfs Greek , Where culturally Greek and did make it a purpose to pass Greek culture. Then , ahem they were Greek. Saying they tried to emulate Greek culture is Unnapropriate expression not only on historical terms but logical ones. If they successfully emulated Greek culture then what are they ? I would say their successful , because that process of them emulating Greek was a very long one and i would say the finishing line was on Philip's time.
Wikipedia- a map of
Ancient Greek dialects.
As you can see, Macedon is not included as a Greek-speaking region, whatever languages the Macedonian aristocracy used. (Remember that large areas of Europe used French for centuries.)
Look , i agree 100% that Macedonia of 800 BC was not a 100% Greek city state but as evidence show it was dully influenced Hense :
Classification
Due to the fragmentary attestation various interpretations are possible.[2] The discussion is closely related to the reconstruction of the Proto-Greek language. The suggested historical interpretations of Macedonian include:[3]
* an Indo-European language which is a close cousin to Greek and also related to Thracian and Phrygian languages, suggested by A. Meillet (1913) and I. I. Russu (1938),[4] or part of a Sprachbund encompassing Thracian, Illyrian and Greek (Kretschmer 1896, E. Schwyzer 1959).
* an "Illyrian" dialect mixed with Greek, suggested by K. O. Müller (1825) and by G. Bonfante (1987).
* various "Greek" scenarios:
o a Greek dialect, part of the North-Western (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote) variants of Doric Greek , suggested by N.G.L. Hammond (1989) and O. Masson (1996).[5][6]
o a northern Greek dialect, related to Aeolic Greek and Thessalian, suggested among others by A.Fick (1874) and O.Hoffmann (1906).[5][7]
o a Greek dialect with a non-Indo-European substratal influence, suggested by M. Sakellariou (1983).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language
Later the ancient Macedonian language was replaced by other languages from other regions. Even if it was Macedonian Greek after adopting the new laguage ,traditions etc of other Greeks they would become less macedonian Greek and more similar from their new influences.
Macedonian in Classical Greek sources
Further information: Ancient Macedonians
There are some classical references that have led a number of scholars to believe the ancient Macedonians were viewed as a non-Hellenic tribe prior to the 4th century BC. Thus, the late (1st century AD) historian Quintus Curtius suggests that the Macedonian language was not intelligble to the average speaking person (Hist. Alex. 6.11.4): "He (sc. Philotas) found the country people of Phrygia and Paphlagonia ridiculous, and he was not ashamed, though born in Macedonia, to have an interpreter with him when listening to people speaking his own language."[14] The "Hellenic" status of the Macedonians appears to have been a disputable matter in the 5th century BC at least, as Herodotus (5.22) relates how Alexander I was excluded from the Olympic Games as a non-Hellene, but successfully argued that he was of Argive descent after all.
Among the references that may indicate that Macedonian was a Greek dialect, there is the dialogue between an Athenian and a Macedonian in an extant fragment of the 5th century BC comedy 'Macedonians' by the Athenian poet Strattis (fr. 28), where a Macedonian is portrayed as speaking in a rural Greek dialect, saying ὕμμες ὡττικοί for ὑμείς αττικοί "you Athenians", ὕμμες being also attested in Homer, Sappho (Lesbian) and Theocritus (Doric), while ὡττικοί appears only in "funny country bumpkin" contexts of Attic comedy.
[edit] Adoption of the Attic dialect
As southern Greek influence increased, Macedonians increasingly began to adopt the Attic dialect first as an official, and then then as a vernacular in its koine form. It is estimated that ancient Macedonian became supplanted by the
4th century BC.[15].
We are discussing here something very ,very obvious. Historians do dispute about how Greek ancient Macedonia was(and opinions varry as evidence are inconclusive) but their is no debate over 400 BC Macedonia.
You'll also note- despite your earlier assertions- the Minoans were not a Greek group, having been long-extinct by the point that a Hellensitic national identity developed. As the map shows, Crete become a Doric region
I knew quite before you , that Minoans identity is unknown,disputed and noone has put them under any identity.
What i said :"
Several other
barbarian groups like Pelasgianshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgoi, , the Leleges, the Lemnians the Minoans and others integrated with the other Helladic groups and where to an extent or completely hellenized. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenized"
After Micenian invasion of Crete (The island that the minoans ihabited), Minoans where gradually influenced and intergraded into Greek culture. I can back this historical reality with several sources if you think to dispute another historical conclusion , today.
And by the way , if you only consider only Ionians ,Aiceians and Dorians as Greeks then we must exclude the huge population of Former Barbarians (as where Dorians earlier) ,that accepted and embraced Hellenic culture. By 400 BC the bastardization is so complete that it is impossible to divide one group with another.
, the
