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Favorite New Leader for Existing Civ

Discussion in 'Civ4 - General Discussions' started by Phoenix1595, Jun 20, 2007.

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Who is your favorite new leader for an existing civ?

Poll closed Jul 11, 2007.
  1. Lincoln (America)

    34 vote(s)
    13.7%
  2. Boudicca (Celts)

    43 vote(s)
    17.3%
  3. De Gaulle (France)

    21 vote(s)
    8.4%
  4. Pericles (Greeks)

    76 vote(s)
    30.5%
  5. Suleiman (Ottoman)

    25 vote(s)
    10.0%
  6. Darius (Persia)

    50 vote(s)
    20.1%
  1. dutchking

    dutchking Deity

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    Quit being a jerk, you're just so "ignorant" that you can't accept the fact that you're wrong for once in your 3000 year life...you're making me sick with all this crap over just a stupid statement that "Alexander was a Macedon, not exactly a Greek." Get a life man...Oh also, you might want to learn a little more English besides "ignorant" and "ignorance". I'm more English than Dutch just to let you know...
     
  2. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    Get a Life ? And accept you are wrong because you are Wrong ? Your thorough knowledge of the English language really helped you here. Best argument to use on a forum . I find this also priceless .

    And before crying out loud with maturity for being treated Jerkily , remember my young friend that you had it coming .
     
  3. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    you know, hes just a kid, take it easy on him.

    anyhow, what matter is it that Alexander the Great was Greek, Macedonian, Egyptian (as medieval legend put it), Persian (haha), Chinese or Mayan? even for historians - that is really a small detail, because Macedonia was hellenized enough, even if it wasn't pure Greek, it was pretty much Greek enough. what is more important is that Alexander the Great went on a conquering rampage at quite a young age, toppled the ancient world forever, and began the classical world and spreading of Greek culture.
     
  4. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Alexander was a Macedonian king but what he did for the GREEK empire is what makes him in the game.
     
  5. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    and if you go back a few posts, you can see Quote Wars: War in 300land. ;)
     
  6. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    School books do nothing. i haven't learned a signal thing from grade 6 about history. I learned most things about history from games like AOM and Civ and Wikipedia. <Not the best source in the world i know... But at least the Main ideas of history are explained.
     
  7. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    me too. school was such a waste of time... i was so excited for World History class in 7th grade because it would be my last yuear of World History before i had to go through the evils of US History for three years...

    it sucked.

    i learned more from civ than my teachers.
     
  8. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Yes, exactly. Why Scy12 feels it's necessary to turn an off-hand comment into a bitter, pointless and thoroughly idiotic squabble is beyond me. I never once said that he shouldn't be a leader- I quite accept that he should be the first choice for a Greek leader- all I said was that, strictly speaking, he was not truly Greek. You may disagree with this assertion, I understand that, but what exactly is so wrong with that you need to start spitting and screaming like a small child? For someone who "does not have the appetite for a long debate" you've managed to start one quite well.

    If you insist, here's some proof:
    Wikipedia- Macedon Note "This contrasted sharply with the Greek cultures further south..." i.e. a distinction is made between the Macedonians and Greeks
    Mymacedonia.net- Alexander the Macedonian Note "But, Greek cities, like Athens and Thebes, which had pledged allegiance to Philip..." i.e. a distinction is made between the Greeks and the Macedonians.
    Wikipedia- a map of Ancient Greek dialects.
    Spoiler :

    As you can see, Macedon is not included as a Greek-speaking region, whatever languages the Macedonian aristocracy used. (Remember that large areas of Europe used French for centuries.) You'll also note- despite your earlier assertions- the Minoans were not a Greek group, having been long-extinct by the point that a Hellensitic national identity developed. As the map shows, Crete become a Doric region.
     
  9. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    man, people these days...

    i think maybe Alexander WAS Egyptian, like all those medieval legends say... then the line of the Pharaohs did live on! ;)
     
  10. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    The Wikipedia article on Ancient Macedonians says that "Whether the ancient Macedonians were an ethnically Greek people themselves continues to be debated by historians, linguists, and lay people." In short, people who know what they're talking about disagree about this, so why are we bothering?
     
  11. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Nah Alexander was an Etruscan ;)

    The greeks didn't think that the macedonians were greek just like the athenians didn't think that Spartans were true greeks. <or something like that.
     
  12. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    because we are history buffs or people who think we know history and we just love a good brawl like the Viets.

    and, i just want to ad...


    he was screaming at an actual small child. (no insult, DutchKing)
     
  13. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Erm, not to start another debate, the Athenians were quite willing to accept the Spartans as Greeks. They just thought that they were an inferior sort of Greek, they would never have the bad manners to lump them in with non-Greeks. Essentially, the Greek world view went: Your city, e.g. Athens, Sparta > your "tribe", e.g. Ionian, Doric > Greeks of a different tribe > Greek-like non-Greeks, e.g. Macedonians > "Civilised" non-Greeks, e.g. Persians, Egyptians > "Uncivilised" non-Greeks, e.g. Celts, Germans > Women.
    That last bit is almost universal throughout all cultures, unfortunately.
     
  14. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    and here we see evidence of Nationalism even in ancient times! :D


    not in Vietnam! we had (young enough) woman warriors running around with huge elephants! and some were capable generals too! :)
     
  15. TheLastOne36

    TheLastOne36 Deity

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    Umm yah if that was the UU of Vietnam... God that's ... Is there a word to explain that? Young women riding elephants into battle.
     
  16. cybrxkhan

    cybrxkhan Asian Xwedodah

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    hehe, like here (kinda hard to see, though):





    anyhow, back on topic, i think Suleiman was the best addition to the game for historical reasons. Pericles was also good.
     
  17. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    If you feel this is a screaming contest then you are observation meter is quite off. It would be a screaming contest if i answered " You are an Idiot , go away ". or " Your formula hinges on an incorrect fact- that Macedon was part of Greece- and so is rendered incorrect. In the same vein, any formula that starts black=white is incorrect. "The fact is my answers are filled with evidence that support the historical reality you ignored. I didn't notice any screaming from my side ,only the presentation of those evidence. I understand you don't like this. If you don't want to debate , alright .








    Woh ... If you are going to quote from a source better to quote the whole passage. Must be like the previous "Herodotus lived after Alexander mistake"

    Another archaic remnant was the very persistence of a hereditary monarchy which wielded formidable &#8211; sometimes absolute &#8211; power, although this was at times checked by the landed aristocracy, and often disturbed by power struggles within the royal family itself. This contrasted sharply with the Greek cultures further south, where the ubiquitous city-states mostly possessed aristocratic or democratic institutions; the de facto monarchy of tyrants, in which heredity was usually more of an ambition rather than the accepted rule; and the limited, predominantly military and sacerdotal, power of the twin hereditary Spartan kings. The same might have held true of feudal institutions like serfdom, which may have persisted in Macedon well into historical times. Such institutions were abolished by city-states well before Macedon's rise (most notably by the Athenian legislator Solon's famous &#963;&#949;&#953;&#963;&#940;&#967;&#952;&#949;&#953;&#945; seisachtheia laws).

    A different governmental system of rule between the Kingdom city of Macedon and other southern Greek states.

    Understandable as Macedon was not as Hellenized as it was under approximately the time of Philip. It goes without saying that they would keep their govermental type. The difference here is a label. The Macedonians did call themselfs Greek , Where culturally Greek and did make it a purpose to pass Greek culture. Then , ahem they were Greek. Saying they tried to emulate Greek culture is Unnapropriate expression not only on historical terms but logical ones. If they successfully emulated Greek culture then what are they ? I would say their successful , because that process of them emulating Greek was a very long one and i would say the finishing line was on Philip's time.


    Look , i agree 100&#37; that Macedonia of 800 BC was not a 100% Greek city state but as evidence show it was dully influenced Hense :

    Classification

    Due to the fragmentary attestation various interpretations are possible.[2] The discussion is closely related to the reconstruction of the Proto-Greek language. The suggested historical interpretations of Macedonian include:[3]

    * an Indo-European language which is a close cousin to Greek and also related to Thracian and Phrygian languages, suggested by A. Meillet (1913) and I. I. Russu (1938),[4] or part of a Sprachbund encompassing Thracian, Illyrian and Greek (Kretschmer 1896, E. Schwyzer 1959).
    * an "Illyrian" dialect mixed with Greek, suggested by K. O. M&#252;ller (1825) and by G. Bonfante (1987).
    * various "Greek" scenarios:
    o a Greek dialect, part of the North-Western (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote) variants of Doric Greek , suggested by N.G.L. Hammond (1989) and O. Masson (1996).[5][6]
    o a northern Greek dialect, related to Aeolic Greek and Thessalian, suggested among others by A.Fick (1874) and O.Hoffmann (1906).[5][7]
    o a Greek dialect with a non-Indo-European substratal influence, suggested by M. Sakellariou (1983).


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language

    Later the ancient Macedonian language was replaced by other languages from other regions. Even if it was Macedonian Greek after adopting the new laguage ,traditions etc of other Greeks they would become less macedonian Greek and more similar from their new influences.

    Macedonian in Classical Greek sources

    Further information: Ancient Macedonians

    There are some classical references that have led a number of scholars to believe the ancient Macedonians were viewed as a non-Hellenic tribe prior to the 4th century BC. Thus, the late (1st century AD) historian Quintus Curtius suggests that the Macedonian language was not intelligble to the average speaking person (Hist. Alex. 6.11.4): "He (sc. Philotas) found the country people of Phrygia and Paphlagonia ridiculous, and he was not ashamed, though born in Macedonia, to have an interpreter with him when listening to people speaking his own language."[14] The "Hellenic" status of the Macedonians appears to have been a disputable matter in the 5th century BC at least, as Herodotus (5.22) relates how Alexander I was excluded from the Olympic Games as a non-Hellene, but successfully argued that he was of Argive descent after all.

    Among the references that may indicate that Macedonian was a Greek dialect, there is the dialogue between an Athenian and a Macedonian in an extant fragment of the 5th century BC comedy 'Macedonians' by the Athenian poet Strattis (fr. 28), where a Macedonian is portrayed as speaking in a rural Greek dialect, saying &#8021;&#956;&#956;&#949;&#962; &#8033;&#964;&#964;&#953;&#954;&#959;&#943; for &#8017;&#956;&#949;&#943;&#962; &#945;&#964;&#964;&#953;&#954;&#959;&#943; "you Athenians", &#8021;&#956;&#956;&#949;&#962; being also attested in Homer, Sappho (Lesbian) and Theocritus (Doric), while &#8033;&#964;&#964;&#953;&#954;&#959;&#943; appears only in "funny country bumpkin" contexts of Attic comedy.

    [edit] Adoption of the Attic dialect

    As southern Greek influence increased, Macedonians increasingly began to adopt the Attic dialect first as an official, and then then as a vernacular in its koine form. It is estimated that ancient Macedonian became supplanted by the 4th century BC.[15].


    We are discussing here something very ,very obvious. Historians do dispute about how Greek ancient Macedonia was(and opinions varry as evidence are inconclusive) but their is no debate over 400 BC Macedonia.



    I knew quite before you , that Minoans identity is unknown,disputed and noone has put them under any identity.

    What i said :"
    Several other barbarian groups like Pelasgianshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgoi, , the Leleges, the Lemnians the Minoans and others integrated with the other Helladic groups and where to an extent or completely hellenized. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenized"

    After Micenian invasion of Crete (The island that the minoans ihabited), Minoans where gradually influenced and intergraded into Greek culture. I can back this historical reality with several sources if you think to dispute another historical conclusion , today.

    And by the way , if you only consider only Ionians ,Aiceians and Dorians as Greeks then we must exclude the huge population of Former Barbarians (as where Dorians earlier) ,that accepted and embraced Hellenic culture. By 400 BC the bastardization is so complete that it is impossible to divide one group with another.
     
  18. scy12

    scy12 Deity

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    But Suleiman was not a Turk he was an Ottoman...

    (Bad , Sarcasm alert).

    Anyway , i like the synergy of the Charismatic Industrious traits although i always prefer early UB,UU that the French lack.
     
  19. dutchking

    dutchking Deity

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    How did I have it coming? Basically I said Alexander was a Macedon and you lashed out at me and said I was an idiot!
    Jesus...the following guys will be my friends forever:
    Cybrxkhan
    Traitorfish
    TheLastOne36
    I'm sick of your page long fights, scy12...It's tiring...seriously man, please stop.
    Seriously man, none taken...but I'm not really small I'm actually pretty tall for my age :lol: Back to new leaders, just a last thought:
    Alexander was not exactly a greek, but a macedon.
    Also: If either one of you post another arguement, I'll get a moderator. I'm getting tired of the fighting. It's bitter. We're supposed to be nice to eachother here.
     
  20. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    @Scy12- No-one cares anymore. As I said, "people who know what they're talking about disagree about this, so why are we bothering?" In case you didn't get that, it means I am no longer interested in a pointless, circular debate that isn't going to reach a sensible conclusion.
    You want to be right so badly, then fine, you are. Macedon was part of Greece, Alexander was a Greek, you were right all along. Enjoy.
     

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