Favorite UU Part I

[Xenaphobe]

Fast workers are far better on quicker speeds, I'm not sure who thinks they are arguing what, but that's the statement I and every general consensus would stand behind.

That seems to be the consensus. I'm guessing (from statements like "1 Normal turn is worth more than 1 Marathon turn") that people are comparing Normal to Marathon like this:

A Fast Worker moves onto a hill and starts to mine. This is 1 turn faster than a normal Worker, netting you +2 Production when it's finished over a Worker. The player is currently building, say, The Pyramids. At Normal Speed, that +2 Production is worth 3x times as much when building a wonder as it would be on Marathon (where wonders cost 3x times as much to build). So that's +6 Production on Normal vs. +2 Production on Marathon. A clear advantage.

But the game doesn't work that way. Both players play at the same speed. So the +2 Production from the Fast Worker is worth exactly the same on every speed setting: +2 Production.

 

[Xenaphobe]

For me (I voted FW), the benefit of them is that it allows you to move onto a forest or hill tile (but not both) and improve it the same turn that you move onto the tile. That, combined with the turns gained from getting from point a -> point b faster (which, I think, gains you less turns than what I mentioned first) allows you an insane number of gained turns from like turn 10 on normal speed

I'm skeptical that FWs ever give you more than a marginal advantage. There are too many factors working against them:

1. The extra movement point is useful about 1/3 of time (roughly) under normal circumstances.

2. Even regular workers can improve tiles faster than a newly founded city can use them. If you don't work the tile, building it sooner doesn't matter. So if you build a mine on turn 24, and I build a mine on turn 25, but neither of us can use the mine until turn 28, we're even.

3. The same for resources. Until you actually use/need the resource, it doesn't matter how quickly you connect it to your city/network.

The main advantage for FWs is chopping a clump of 3-4 forests early in the game. And if you're planning a peaceful (or mostly peaceful) game, it's probably the most useful UU.

 

[itg]

I vote Panzer simply because of how well it works in harmony with Germany's UB and how great it is lategame-when the AI has gotten to get a sizable stack of units in cities.

Basically,not only can the Panzer roll down Infantry and Tanks with ease-You get so many of them from your Assembly Plant that late in the game(And you SHOULD have them,they're a wonderful UB),that you can just roll down an enemy before he gets a chance to react.AT units are a snag,but infantry (or modern infantry) and artillery should be cheap enough to reliably spam-Remember?AP?-which makes it even greater.

Plus,remember the Forge still counts with an AP and Bismarck still has his traits.

I know what you're thinking."Anony,you suave man,aren't Quechas better for rushing that early in the game-Removing the need for panzers to rush lategame in the first place?"

Well,think again.Remember that a few civs-Like,well,Germany-start with mining,and can beeline to Bronze Working.If they find some Bronze around-And trust me,they usually will-Suddenly your Quechas are a little ineffective against large amounts of Axemen.

The awesomeness of panzers and assembly plants you're experiencing is actually just the awesomeness of tanks and factories. Germany's uniques offer extremely modest advantages, much too late in the game. In the case of panzers, unless you're fighting tanks (and you probably won't be), you might as well be using tanks yourself. As for the assembly plant, I think it's a little cheaper, and you get more engineer slots. Great. That should've been a unique forge. Try tank warfare with any other leader, and you'll probably have just as much success.

 

[Spectrite]

My point is that regardless of game speed, the result is always the same. No matter if it takes 1 turn to build a farm, or 6, or 20, you only ever get +1 turn of production on that tile over a regular worker.

1 turn on Normal = 3 turns on Marathon.

Therefore, saving 1 turn on Normal is equivalent to saving 3 turns on Marathon.

But the Fast Worker doesn't save 3 turns on Marathon - it only saves 1. So on Marathon, it saves 1/3 of the time that it does on Normal.

 

[pi-r8]

My point is that regardless of game speed, the result is always the same. No matter if it takes 1 turn to build a farm, or 6, or 20, you only ever get +1 turn of production on that tile over a regular worker. You're not getting a "free" turn, or an "extra" turn: you're getting 1 extra turn of production for that tile, period. And you're only getting that (roughly) 1/3 of the time (the other 2/3 you don't need the 3rd movement point).

\
think of it this way- it takes (I think?) 5 turns on marathon to chop down a forest, vs. 2 turns on quick speed. Either way, the fast worker saves one turn of movement speed- a normal worker has to waste a turn moving. So on quick speed you get a 1/3 decrease in the turns required, but on marathon it's only a 1/6 decrease.

 

[Percile]

go redcoats

 

[babar]

I have a suspicion that Fast Workers might be no better than Expansive Workers. I'm probably wrong about this, and would be happy to accept any expert opinions to the contrary, but otherwise it seems to me that when a UU is no better than an ordinary U benefited by a trait, it can't be that great.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

That seems to be the consensus. I'm guessing (from statements like "1 Normal turn is worth more than 1 Marathon turn") that people are comparing Normal to Marathon like this:

A Fast Worker moves onto a hill and starts to mine. This is 1 turn faster than a normal Worker, netting you +2 Production when it's finished over a Worker. The player is currently building, say, The Pyramids. At Normal Speed, that +2 Production is worth 3x times as much when building a wonder as it would be on Marathon (where wonders cost 3x times as much to build). So that's +6 Production on Normal vs. +2 Production on Marathon. A clear advantage.

But the game doesn't work that way. Both players play at the same speed. So the +2 Production from the Fast Worker is worth exactly the same on every speed setting: +2 Production.

Haha!

No, but seriously. Marathon units have triple the movement speed compared to normal speed units, relative to the passage of time and technology. On the flip side, a fast worker giving you a 1 turn head start on multiple improvements (or allowing you to attain a very early advantage) is worth a lot more when each of those advantages compounds more rapidly.

I have a suspicion that Fast Workers might be no better than Expansive Workers. I'm probably wrong about this, and would be happy to accept any expert opinions to the contrary, but otherwise it seems to me that when a UU is no better than an ordinary U benefited by a trait, it can't be that great.

You just ruled the vast majority of the UUs .

I doubt expansive workers are as good on quick or normal, but expansive's other bonuses are arguably more important (especially the granary)

 

[babar]

If you say Expansive workers are most likely inferior to Fast workers, I'm happy to accept that's the case. An example of what I meant by an ordinary unit benefitted by a trait is, say, an AGG axe. If an AGG axe is better than an axe UU then that UU is not so flash...

 

[whats a navy]

Fast worker but I could see an argument made for quecha if you're a marathon only guy. I also like the oromo warrior but it doesn't hold up to the other two.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If you say Expansive workers are most likely inferior to Fast workers, I'm happy to accept that's the case. An example of what I meant by an ordinary unit benefitted by a trait is, say, an AGG axe. If an AGG axe is better than an axe UU then that UU is not so flash...

It's a tough call because with restricted leaders on uniques were balanced for their leaders (at least in theory ). Then you have things like the dog soldier which are awful in their traditional role but can do some things the base unit can't do...an AGG axe is certainly better for a rush (any axes is better for a rush)...unless the rush is against you. Then, the dog soldier is *always* available, can't be pillaged away, and completely wrecks all choking or rushing melee...and a couple can be pretty annoying choke/pillagers themselves which might save you some hassle against the super warmongers.

The worker portion of expansive was toned down in BTS, it actually used to be a 50% bonus on them (crazy). You can probably get more hammer savings from fast workers by building less of them than you can by building standard amounts with EXP, but they also allow some gambits like fast wonder chops. EXP fast workers would be really cool, but we were not given those unfortunately.

 

[plasmacannon]

Right, which makes Bismark of India such a great wonder building Leader.

 

[DrPepper836]

Only if you disable Barbarians. Otherwise, Quecha are still insanely useful.

Not if you fogbust properly. Warriors fortified on forested hills can reliably beat archers, and quechas won't help vs axes.

 

[obsolete]

Who the heck is voting for Fast Workers?

Well, USUALLY it's always been those who had a lot of experience...

 

[NihilZero]

Not if you fogbust properly. Warriors fortified on forested hills can reliably beat archers, and quechas won't help vs axes.

Spawnbusting is so much easier when your warriors have a Combat I promotion and a bonus against archers, improving their chances of survival while getting into position and fortifying. And even though a fortified warrior on a forested hill has winning odds against archers, sometimes there are a lot of archers...

Not only that, but not all maps can or should be spawnbusted completely. There is always a compromise to be made between investing more hammers on more spawnbusters to cover more ground and replace casualties, and investing hammers in expanding your territory with settlers and workers. Frequently it's better to spawnbust imperfectly, if it allows you to grab important sites that you might otherwise lose to AIs (or even barbs). In such cases where it is necessary to expand into unsafe territory and possibly face barbs attacking either your settler party or your brand new city, I know I'd much rather have a quecha at my disposal than an ordinary warrior.

 

[Xenaphobe]

Therefore, saving 1 turn on Normal is equivalent to saving 3 turns on Marathon.

But you're not "saving a turn"; you're gaining a turn of production on that one tile. Regardless of game speed, that's all the advantage you get.

 

[Xenaphobe]

Haha!

No, but seriously. Marathon units have triple the movement speed compared to normal speed units, relative to the passage of time and technology. On the flip side, a fast worker giving you a 1 turn head start on multiple improvements (or allowing you to attain a very early advantage) is worth a lot more when each of those advantages compounds more rapidly.

That's true. However, the advantage gained from Fast Workers is relative to regular Workers at that same Game Speed, so it's always the same: 1 extra production turn. This is because the same speed factors that would make FWs better at faster speeds also make regular Workers better.

 

[Spectrite]

But you're not "saving a turn"; you're gaining a turn of production on that one tile. Regardless of game speed, that's all the advantage you get.

Same thing.

One turn of production on Normal is worth 3 turns of production on Marathon.

But you don't gain 3 turns of production on Marathon, you still only gain 1 turn, which is less than 1 turn on Normal.

 

[Xenaphobe]

One turn of production on Normal is worth 3 turns of production on Marathon.

Not entirely. Units only cost twice as much on Marathon. And the food to support your population is the same (a 2F tile on Marathon is just as good (or bad) as a 2F tile on Normal/Quick).

It's like comparing apples to oranges though. Otherwise, every time a worker (or any unit) used its last movement point to move into a hill/forest/jungle tile, according to this "rule" it would "gain a turn". Oh, and Musketeers would get a lot more votes.

 

[Xenaphobe]

I have a suspicion that Fast Workers might be no better than Expansive Workers.

I don't have the expansion so I don't know for sure how they work...but at least on paper, the Expansive Worker isn't any better on Quick than a regular worker; it's roughly equal to a FW at Normal Speed; it's far and away superior at Marathon.

That's assuming Expansive Workers build improvements in 3/4 of the time (a farm on Flood Plains at Marathon would take 19 x .75 = 14.25 turns--7 turns faster).