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Fealty, Loyalty, and the REF

Discussion in 'Civ4Col - Medieval: Conquests' started by Kailric, Apr 22, 2014.

  1. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Are not we all:confused:

    I forgot to add that Admin will be a cost for all your Civics, so that is something else it does. Other than that it feeds the multi stat Fealty. We could add effects like all Extra Admin gets converted into another stat so it doesn't seem like you are wasting the extra stuff, which your not as it is pouring into Fealty.

    Not exactly, Fealty still represents your approval by the People and their over all morale, but Administration is the organization of Labor and Military, and I should add Civics. It helps to feed Fealty but is not Fealty.

    This would be an easy setup. We need an XML file to place all this info like which Yields increase which Multi Stat so it is not hardcoded.

    Yes, and that is where it comes from.

    This is actually a good idea. It would require splitting the "Rebel Sentiment" value in two. This would give Admin a pratical purpose leaving Religion the only Yield that doesn have a direct pratical purpose. Perhaps Religion could "Bless" your Citizens in some way extra besides the mentioned multi stat bonus.

    I would think all the stats combined would represent this.

    Historically, people have been drawn to religion and freedom of religion more than to Rulers, especially if the Ruler is against their religion.

    Under the default victory conditions, you can either side with the Pope and defend him against invaders or appose him and capture Rome your self. In order to win and be Crowned Emperor, Rome must either fall into your hands or not into the hands of enemies. So, there should be some benefit to having the Pope's grace. So, for the Tithe that he demands, you could gain some bonus based on the Pope's attitude towards you. Perhaps a huge bonus to Religious production, or Religious production greatly increases the stats that effect Unit Strength and Unit Production.

    So, if you appose the Pope, it is much harder to gain Fealty, but you have more money:gold:

    When we add in Religions we can take a new look at the whole system, perhaps have other historical figures, duel Popes and such like that, like in actual history during the great schism.

    This is true.

    The Prison idea is a good one, but for the moment we'll keep it as is(coding time), they are converted by working in your Cities that produce Law. But, I will change their upgrade citizen to Serf instead of Free Peasant as that makes more sense. Why should a command criminal be raised to Free Peasant status when you should first test him out as a Serf to see if he is Loyal:whipped:

    That's an interesting Idea, although I thought about the historical concept of "city air makes men free". If a serf could flee to a City and live there for a year and a day he was considered a Free Man. So, I was thinking perhaps with a Tech or under certain Civics Serfs could be converted to Free Peasants for a Cost. Perhaps with a cool effect that the serf could be an Expert of Master waiting to be discovered:w00t:
     
  2. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    If you are going to program a way for serfs to evolve, would it not be better to use something existing and under used, like the Law?
    The idea that if they remain in a place of law long enough, they escape the shackles of beholden serfdom and become a freeman with rights under the law.

    As for the Pope, let's think about the benefits:

    The Pope provided a sort of Law amongst Kings.
    He was their Judge, he allowed them to do or not do things against other Kings and Countries.
    He sanctioned those who defied him, and set certain Laws as good and bad. (Which we Have)
    His worst sanction is excommunication, which instantly made you fair game for all the other kingdoms.
    He could give funds and support and manpower for wars and crusades he deemed worthy.
    With the various Orders like the Knights Templar he began to have church sanctioned armies and corporations that he could exert 'some' influence over on your behalf.
    He provided legitimacy for a King's position. "Yes Him that one... he is your King!"

    So the benefits, are more or less the same as what the King does in Col. especially with the expanded concepts from things like RaR.

    He can give you 'boons' of Money, Piety(religion boost or 'delivery of the yield'), Protection (In the form of the various Knights Orders) or ships for a crusade, Legitimacy (fealty), etc.
    With your censure system, he has the ability to turn certain things in your empire on and off, as well as boost or penalise them.

    The benefit of siding against him is the ability to do as you please without his meddling control that can force you to make choices you do not see as beneficial.

    The downside is you make a very powerful and influential enemy.

    "Historically, people have been drawn to religion and freedom of religion more than to Rulers, especially if the Ruler is against their religion."

    But in providing your own source of religion, you provide a place of religious freedom from the Catholic Church.
    You are providing an alternative to the Pope by providing the religious sites, which feeds prosperity (Influx of dissatified people), which provides you with Fealty, which alarms the Pope as you are becoming capable of Rivaling his Influence.
    Which leads him to make preperations incase you defect.
    If you defect you are essentially going the Protestant/Reformation Route.

    "I think Fealty Represents your ability to provide society for your people."
    "I would think all the stats combined would represent this."

    That's what I mean, Fealty becomes the Sum of All your Societal efforts combined, so some flow to Prosperity and cause Immigration, Some Flow to Culture and provide Expansion.

    The Prosperity and Culture Flows Into Fealty which represents your Culture, your Choices, your Wishes, becoming more important and influential to the people you provide for, than the distant Pope who is no longer the source of 'their' Culture and Prosperity.

    You can have 100% Fealty and still side with the Pope if you choose, because your people follow you, and Fealty doesn't make the Pope diplomatically angry, it just makes him nervous and forces him to take steps to insure his dominance (Expanding the PCA "Papal Crusade Army").

    But this way, leading your country well and providing for them leads to Loyalty, and places Fealty as the Primary Yield.
    Having subjects that are loyal to you would be any kings primary goal.

    As for your thoughts on Religion, I think it's role as the primary source of Prosperity(Immigration) (It's currently like a 2 to 1 ration compared to the other Prosperity Factors, right?) Is a good and solid role for it, it also provides religous FF points.

    When we introduce a proper religion system, we can look at what else it can do.
    Like pushing your religion into dominance in your cities.

    Another alternative is it could be a currency you can spend with the Pope?
    Exchanged for the previously mentioned 'Boons'.
    If you break away from the Pope it could increase it's effect on immigration (people flocking to your new religious freedom) or boost soldier strength (standing ready to die for their new faith), etc.

    Another thing might be it could effect the conversion rate of Missions?
    (I have no idea how mission conversion works right now?!?)
    But it could work like the immigration counter, at X crosses you get a convert from a random mission. So it becomes a double or even triple immigration effect!
     
  3. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    All well said. I need to check on the Pope and see what all happens with his relationship too you, as I can't remember all I coded. When you first meet the Pope you have a choice, either except his religious meddlings or he renounces you as a Heretic. If he considers you a Heretic he want ask anything of you but rather calls crusades again you. However, say mid game there is no way to become a Heretic or repent and be brought back under the fold. At least I can't remember if I coded it or not. So, I need to add that after being hit with a few Censures the Pope may well just right you off and call you a Heretic. But, if you want to get back in his graces there is this huge thing you can do for him, what ever that may be, a Crusade or huge donation perhaps.

    Religion production effecting Missionaries sounds like a good idea. I think each Mission gains points each turn based on a few factors, once enough points are earned you get a convert and the process starts over. Currently, there is a Religious bonus for having a Mission connected to your cities, but we could reverse that and give the Mission a bonus instead, perhaps it could also help persuade villages to join you as Vassals. And we could have things like Missions adding new building such as schools, "Your mission has built a school in Vadalusia." Then with a school you get faster learn times when "living among the natives". I plan on expanding the learn from natives feature and improving it. In my current game I have 4 native villages nearby and all 4 teach Shepard, ridiculous.
     
  4. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Yes i rember you saying that before! Sheepy!

    You used to be able to buy indulgences (cash for forgiveness) from the church, we could maybe add a new option that lets you buy your way out of decrees and the like.

    No I don't want to crusade, but here is a bag of cash for the endeavour!
     
  5. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

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    I have been absent for one day and you guys wrote a novel :eek:

    That gave me an idea. Currently we use lumber and hammers for all production. What if a building costs X hammers, Y bricks, Z tools and whatever and then we have a profession for applying each to the building. One thing, which bugs me is that the amount of extra yields are all taken at once without anybody applying them. The one building, which shows this in the extreme is the colony council (or whatever the name is) in RaR. It's a stone building and you build it with lumber only. Once it's done, you add 200 tools and some stone, but they didn't need the supply as they were building, they just apply them magically in one go. We use the same vanilla system with this flaw.

    Imagine if we did have different professions for each yield, which needs to be applied and we add build icons like we add hammers right now. Carpenters could then automatically switch to bricklayers if no more hammers are needed and such to eliminate micro management, but in essence, you need multiple different experts to build something big as a castle as fast as possible.

    The law could do the same to people. They would then be declared "outlaws". This mean what the word says: somebody outside the law. Yeah they tend to be criminal and not follow the law, but since the law doesn't apply to them, lawful men could kill them and take their property. When no laws applies to outlaws, there were no laws to protect them either.

    The viking Eric the red was declared outlaw in Iceland (for manslaughter if I remember correctly). Interestingly enough the sentence was not in effect right away. He was given time to flee. In fact he had enough time to man an expedition to sail west and see whatever land they would encounter and they found somewhere they settled and called Greenland. I can't remember how many people left with him, but more than half the ships were either lost or turned around due to a dangerous voyage, yet it was a two digit number of ships making the entire journey if I recall correctly. Quite impressive support to an outlaw.

    I find it quite interesting that he was given the choice between running away and being executed.

    People of all ages tend to go towards religion when they have problems. It might be a one time event, like a ship in a storm, or a more continuous problem, like war or the black death.

    It would actually be quite interesting if we could get some sort of "citizen safety factor" or "fear factor" where citizens are affected by stuff like war, distance to enemy, wild animals, city walls and other stuff like that. Religion would likely be useful to counter bad effects of frightened citizens.
     
  6. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    As an interesting factoid, I've studied this just recently, and Indulgences didn't begin until the 11th century. But still, this is a good idea.

    Volume II is due out next week:p

    Let's think through this some more, if we had separate building for each yield it may get a bit tedious to deal with, but if we had say one building that consumed each yield as it was being produced that may work better. You start out with Work Bench/Work Shops that only consume Lumber and Tools. Then instead of a Lumber Mill, we would have a Work Yard, Work Yards are allowed to consume Stone as well. So to build a Cathedral you will need a Work Yard and all the necessary materials on hand. Each turn it takes the needed materials from your stores, if you run out of anyone then production stops. You could go so far as to keep track of each Yields consumption separately but that may be unnecessary.

    Yeah, we've been talking about such things that effect Fealty higher up in this thread.
     
  7. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Hopefully, with the AI Transports Overhaul, keeping up with all those yields won't be a problem.

    I like both ideas, but I think Kailric's is the easier to implement, because you already have productions that require multiple yields, so it might not be much more to have variable multiple yields for construction depending on the buildings needs.

    I do agree that it is strange that you just dump a pile of tools on a building when it is done!

    This should probably go somewhere like economy thread though, or maybe even have it's own thread, before we lose sight of this threads original purpose! :D
     
  8. Fullerene

    Fullerene Chieftain

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    I support the multiple yield hammer production idea 100%. It is bit silly that only wood parts are actually build, other materials are just dumbed in.
    I don't think that all yields need to be enabled to produce hammer however.

    Keeping World History mod dream in mind, maybe we could have 3 types of basic building materials: wood, stone and clay. Some buildings will require for example specially wood, but some could be build from any of these 3 materials.

    Hmm, if you build things like cannons, you should also be able to produce hammers from ore.

    And one note about tools: I think that the whole purpose that some buildings requires tools should be that people working there needs those tools. For example you need some tools in the weapon's smith shop to produce the swords etc. If it would be like that you could just "dumb in" the tools as they are used in the building not assembled into it during construction.

    This easily becomes complicated to implement but I'd like to have various "hammer yields" and then building could also require extra yields that are just taken into building when it's completed.

    In XML there would be tags like:
    Code:
    <HammerYieldsCosts>
    <HammerYieldCostsOr/>
    <HammerYieldCostsAnd/>
    </HammerYieldsCosts>
    <ExtraYieldCosts/>
     
  9. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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  10. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    Ok, I plan on adding a new XML value where we can set what Factors influence Culture, Prosperity, and Fealty. That way anyone can mod in their own values. Just where to add these is the question. We could add them to Era infos and the factors could change when Eras do. We could add them to Civilizations to have separate ones per Civ. We could also have them setup to Change according to Techs as well.

    Below is some of the ideas we discussed earlier.

    Production-> total city's hammer production, state for Prosperity
    Admin-> Represents organization of Labor and Military maneuvers. Adds production bonuses, Stat for Prosperity
    Religion-> Stat for Culture
    Research-> Provides Techs, state for Prosperity.
    Education-> Stat for Prosperity. Educates citizens.
    Law-> Represents the distribution of Law, Order, and just weights and measures. Stat for Culture. Rehabilitates criminals.

    Multi Yield Stats

    Culture-> expands your borders
    Primary Factors: Law, Religion

    Reasoning: A society's Laws, Customs, Beliefs, Morales and the like make up their Culture and these two states would represent that well. A player's laws, religion, and customs being spread represents your borders expanding very well.

    Prosperity-> promotes Immigration, enticing others to join your realm.
    Factors: Production, Admin
    Secondary Factors: Education, Research

    Reasoning: Immigrants are enticed to your realm for multiple reasons. Obviously if your realm is prospering well you will entice more. A well Administered society will for sure promote prosperity. Lots of Production means lots of work; experts and masters can expect to find jobs there. Many people are enticed by prospects of Education. And Research represents that many ideas are being generated, thus would advance your society.

    Fealty-> strengthens your units
    Factors: Prosperity and Culture
     
  11. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    Sounds good.

    All of those places sound like good places for the reasons you stated...

    Would it be wise to give it it's own file?

    With various tag factors added to it.

    So it could be set as per 1 unit value.

    with tags like:
    ComboYieldType (prosperity, fealty, etc.)
    YieldType
    Yieldamount(ivalue right?)
    so you can set how much of each yield is needed per 1 unit.
    TechYieldChange (with YieldType Yieldamount)
    so you can change it to +/- numbers to increase/decrease/allow/remove yields
    CivicYieldChange
    EraYieldChange
    CivYieldChange
    (all with the same tags as above, for the same reasons.)
     
  12. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

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    The obvious choice would be CivEffect as that will give it access to be changed by traits, techs, civics and all that. We talked about eras and that they should be able to apply changes as well. I have also been thinking of some "everybody starts with this" CivEffect to move the default setting setup from DLL to XML.

    The only problem is that if CivEffect is chosen, then you have to wait for me to finish my work on the merge/split.
     
  13. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    While that could be the best option to give plenty of choices, lets consider Nights simpler suggestion...

    We could have defaults set in DLL, where the Defaults are like Vanilla, Prosperity(aka Immigration) is only effected by Religion and Culture is only effected by Admin (YIELD_BELLS), and Fealty (Rebel Sentiment) YIELD_BELLS as well. Then CivEffects can change this. Any game rule changes to this would need to be Techs and any these "default rules" would need to be added to Free Techs. Also, if this CivEffect change is going to be "default rules" basically then it wouldn't need to be shown as starting "Free Tech" as it isn't really a free tech but rather game rules. So, perhaps we can add an extra tag for CivEffects for bGameRule and it will ignore some of the setup and info display of normal Techs. If it is a Civic, then it would also have to be setup with a CivicCategory as well of course, and then you may or may not want its info displayed. Kinda like how I set it up for Localism to give Wellborn citizens with Luxury Food. It shows it in the Help display on the Civic Screen, but this is a bit of out of place as none of the other starting civics have any info and this is more of a Game Rule and not a Civic choice.

    Yeah, I have been wanting to change some of the effects of the current civics but I know all that XML will be changed. I have made some adjustments so far, such as Upkeep costs, so we'll have to track those in the log when we go to merge. It would probably be best just to revert my CivicInfos back to the same branch version you started working with right?

    What I will do is just finish out my current saved game and use it for testing the AI Traders and some other things. Then start a new save when we merge everything back together.
     
  14. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    One idea I just had... as you may or may not know Units have an iImmigrationWeightDecay XML attribute. Every time a unit appears at the docks it will decrees the chance by iImmigrationWeightDecay that another of that unit will appear. That is why at the end game all you get are criminals and free colonists. So, why not allow Prosperity (or something) to some how modify this decay, slow it down, reverse it, or stop it all together.
     
  15. Lib.Spi't

    Lib.Spi't Overlord of the Wasteland

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    It is an interesting idea, I don't think prosperity would work very well simply because you would be reducing the decay with the thing that also causes the decay.. if you see what I mean.

    Perhaps something like civics might be good for this. The idea of wage labour attracting skilled individuals (or at least reducing the decay) makes sense, because it is a land of oppurtunity. Skilled people will get paid here.

    Or perhaps if we want to use a yield, we use culture to reduce it, so prosperity brings them in and culture keeps the quality higher, because the powerful cultured empire stands out as a beacon and is the place to go to rise up and get your talent noticed.
     
  16. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

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    I was thinking of adding a file with hidden effects (as in not listed in pedia), which can be called by random events and stuff like that. Those effects can vanish after X turns or have X percent chance of ending each turn. That will allow stuff like "heavy rain wrecks havoc on your roads. All roads have -1 movement until they are repaired", which could then take 3 turns. We can also make some, which disappears after a single turn, provides something from the gift tag group, such free units or tech or whatever.

    With a system like that, we can set the DLL to automatically give the first CivEffect from that file to all players permanently and that would be our default settings.

    I expected that to happen. Rather than modifying CivicInfo.xml, I wrote a script to update the file to fit the new schema file. This mean civic upkeep and other changes to that file can be merged easily as I have no modifications at all. I plan not to touch that file until I until I split it, which is last on the list.

    Now that sounds interesting. However criminals aim towards prosperous countries :p
     
  17. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    That's a valid point.

    This would be great to have and would be an easy way to set up events so I'm all for it.

    [
    There would probably need to be some kind of indication that the first CivEffect here will be universal. If its just written in the DLL then no one will know what is happening.

    So, this would be a new type of CivEffect to add to the list, we can call them CivEffectEvents. These Events get ignored until called upon by in game events, which could be on game start, player creation, etc and these can actually be setup with the Event System. We could add new trigger tags to the Event System for these CivEffectEvents to happen by.

    While that is true, unless you are aiming for a penal colony you would hope to attract other citizens besides criminals. This effect was added to increase the urgency in vanilla for the player to hurry up and declare independence, and so it is simply a gimmick set up by the developers and its intentions has little to do with reality. In M:C we are wanting to create more ways to win besides the Independence theme so this urgency isn't stressed nearly as much.
     
  18. Nightinggale

    Nightinggale Chieftain Supporter

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    We will just write this requirement on the wiki. We figure out a fitting name for the universal one and if the first has a different name, the DLL asserts and provides the URL to the correct wiki page telling about this requirement.
     
  19. Kailric

    Kailric Jack of All Trades

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    iImmigrationWeightDecay would actually be a pretty useful tool. I've wanted to add Legendary Craftsmen, which would be extremely rare Units. Their iImmigrationWeightDecay could be set to 100, so that only one would ever appear. There could also be an attribute that makes them decay every time a new citizen is added to the que, that way they would even be more rare and some games they would not show at all.
     
  20. orlanth

    orlanth Storm God. Yarr!

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    I'm not sure about the behavior of vanilla iImmigrationWeightDecay (ie does it decay after you get an immigrant or adjust passively per-turn), but the first one does seem more interesting.

    It could be cool if the new CivEffects had a tag that could affect ImmigrationWeight for a Unitclass. You could easily have Civics, Techs, Fathers, or Traits that adjust immigration chance for a unitclass up or down! :cool:

    About all the new abstract yields and combination yields my head is kind of spinning from all the proposed combinations. :crazyeye: But I think the most natural way to control behavior of abstract and combination yields would be from tags in YieldInfos.xml. They would not be the same for all mods so it's best to avoid hardcoding where possible, though I guess some of their core behaviors (ie what yield controls border expansion, what yield triggers an immigrant, what yield controls "Rebel Sentiment" slider, etc) would require hardcoding to a given Yield to be feasible. In the case of Culture (or whatever the border-expanding combo yield would be) the gameplay role may be relatively limited at 1-plot city radius, but could become more interesting if you have 2-plot city radius with gradual border expansion one tile at a time a la Civ5. Or if you stay at 1-plot city radius but let cities progress through several "Culture Levels" (Struggling->Prosperous->Legendary etc) a la Civ4, where maintaining high local Culture Level can grant some benefit.

    This is a good idea for Events, but could be even more versatile if you take advantage of the existing options in EventTriggerInfos.xml and EventInfos.xml to control the behavior of applying and removing a CivEffect. IIRC you can have an Event which triggers a later Event after x turns (undoing the first one's effects or having a followon consequence). Or if you want a % chance per turn of removing it, you can make an EventTrigger with the desired chance that triggers an Event to remove it. Or if you want the player to have to fulfill a certain condition to remove the bad CivEffect, you can make an EventTrigger with those fulfillment criteria that triggers an Event to remove it. Behold the awesome potential of EventTriggerInfos!! :devil:

    If "Censures" represent a CivEffect that is involuntary and temporary, you could apply and remove one for any gameplay reason the modder wants. Could even call them Conditions rather than Censures to better represent this. You wouldn't necessarily want them totally hidden so the player could still see and understand why he was affected by a certain penalty, so there could be an interface button that could show a popup or tooltip listing active Conditions.
     

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