FEB 2011 Patch Details

[SammyKhalifa]

My guess is that the cost of border acquisition by will be reduced only in those cities already settled when you take Tradition.

It's a feeble attempt to discourage you from taking what is obviously the best opening SP with your first pick. +3 while you are still just the capital is absurdly huge for everyone except France, and it's big for them.

Okay. That makes sense I guess. I would have tried diagraming the sentence to work it out that way, but High School was a long time ago and I probably would have just confused myself further.

Thanks.

Not quite strictly, but the Longhouse will only be better if you are working a ton of improved Forests and nothing else. Keep in mind that a Longhouse is going to be a lot cheaper - at least 50% to build and half the maintenance.

Also keep in mind that all of the production bonuses are calculated off of raw , and there are a lot of bonuses as the game wears on. This means that the Iroquois will still be able to tear Wonder and part production up like no one else after Steam Power, because the Longhouse bonus gets picked up in the multipliers and the Workshop bonus (other than the +2 ) does not.

Ah, I hadn't been thinking of the building cost. And good point about the multipliers. It's still more of a situational building than the workshop, though (although they do usually start with a lot of forests nearby). It's still a nice building to me though because it really does add a unique flavor to that Civ.

 

[Rittmeyer]

My english is not native but I disagree about tradition. In my opinion that sentence means that the culture expansion discount (that is now given by another tradition policy - forgot the name) will now be placed in the opening policy.

that means every city will get the discount.

 

[Martin Alvito]

The Iroquois are really a toned down Yang from SMAC. If you come into their territory, they effectively have a defensive bonus and it's not likely to go well unless you have a sizable tech advantage. If you remain at parity, eventually they're going to bury you in units.

 

[MadDjinn]

My english is not native but I disagree about tradition. In my opinion that sentence means that the culture expansion discount (that is now given by another tradition policy - forgot the name) will now be placed in the opening policy.

that means every city will get the discount.

This.

2kGreg already made a comment that the sentence was badly formed, and changed it a bit.

There's no reason to believe that an SP will only work on existing cities. They never did before, so why start now?

Tradition as the first SP is very likely the best opener now. (in most cases)

 

[Martin Alvito]

2kGreg already made a comment that the sentence was badly formed, and changed it a bit.

Didn't see that post, fair enough.

Tradition as the first SP is very likely the best opener now. (in most cases)

It's hard to think of cases when it isn't. If you slapped up a Monument, you could get to Collective Rule or the free Great General in Honor faster than if you went Tradition first. But that implies an early Monument, which is very rarely a good idea. France gives away a few turns on Collective Rule or the GG by going Tradition first, so there might be cases where skipping Tradition makes sense.

 

[MadDjinn]

Didn't see that post, fair enough.



It's hard to think of cases when it isn't. If you slapped up a Monument, you could get to Collective Rule or the free Great General in Honor faster than if you went Tradition first. But that implies an early Monument, which is very rarely a good idea.

yeah... I have a feeling they really want people to make monuments early.

Given the 'free culture buildings in the first 4 cities' SP, I'm wondering if free temples can be found. Also, if your capital counts as one of those cities; and if you need the tech first, etc.

I'll definitely explore those issues in the first game post patch.

 

[Martin Alvito]

What does "free" mean? Maintenance free, or "free" in the sense of the Civ II Pyramids' "free Granary in every city?" I've always been reading it as the latter, and that makes a big difference.

 

[RDespair]

Unless you're planning on staying with just your capital for a while, I'd say Liberty is a better starting SP than Tradition. If you go Warrior/Scout, then Monument, you'll be making 4 culture a turn after you get Liberty, which means that you could get a free Settler in 11 turns or so, plus you'd be in good position to get Representation so thereafter which would cut down on your social policy costs. Get 4 cities, build some culture buildings, then go Tradition, Legalism, Landed Elite, and you're well on your way to a strong midsized culture-oriented civilization. Or alternatively, go for Meritocracy to get the free early Great Person.

If you went Tradition -> Liberty -> Collective Rule instead it would take longer to get the free Settler. Capital + Monument + Tradition = 6 culture/turn so it would take about 22 turns to get the Settler since you need 135 more culture beyond the first to get the 3rd policy as opposed to just 45 for the 2nd.

 

[Aoxomoxoa]

What does "ICS" mean?

I'm struggling to get through this thread with all the jargon.

Imagine a city as that center hex and the first six hex tiles around it. Now vision your cities as those hexagons placed as tightly as you can, that's true ICS. Two empty tiles between cities.

 

[MadDjinn]

What does "free" mean? Maintenance free, or "free" in the sense of the Civ II Pyramids' "free Granary in every city?" I've always been reading it as the latter, and that makes a big difference.

my reading is that the cities get a building. It doesn't help you much to get the cost of a monument reduced for just 4 cities. So hopefully it's not that.

This is also why I want to explore the new changes right away. There's some possibilities in there for some powerful starts. (if Askia can get free mud pyramid mosques - big culture boom - best temple in the game)

@RDespair:

I'm not feeling that calculation of yours. Going to have to time it out post-patch.

Faster border expansion = more lux/etc hooked up sooner.

+3 early if going National College first (1 city) will drive you into the Liberty tree fast enough. In that case, I'd grab the extra worker and the GP from meritocracy and time the expansion plan for when I grab the free settler and faster production.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Please, can someone explain this line to me:
"Culture border expansion discount in cities placed on Tradition branch opener. "

Whaa? I've read it dozens of times and still dont understand what this is actually saying.

The...Culture border expansion discount in cities... effect (that was previously in Landed elite)
has been
.... placed on Tradition branch opener.


As for the Culture...

Tradition->Liberty->Collective rule... assume a monument turn 20

Turn: net culture: cpt at this point
0:0:1
20:20:3
22:26:6..Tradition
30:74:7..Liberty
43:165:7..Collective Rule


VS. Liberty->Collective rule
Turn: net culture: cpt at this point
0:0:1
20:20:3
22:26:4..Liberty
33:70:4..Collective Rule


It depends on if you want a Culture game or not....
[Monument]Tradition->Liberty->Collective rule (get ~4 total cities with Monuments)->Legalism
is probably the best sequence for that

But if you want a rapid expansion... with the culture game secondary, then
[Monument] Liberty->Collective Rule is much better.

 

[_hero_]

my reading is that the cities get a building. It doesn't help you much to get the cost of a monument reduced for just 4 cities. So hopefully it's not that.

This is also why I want to explore the new changes right away. There's some possibilities in there for some powerful starts. (if Askia can get free mud pyramid mosques - big culture boom - best temple in the game)

One interesting (concern?) is that if it does just give 4 regular buildings, you could run into a situation where you knock your gold per turn into the negative. Especially if you have 4 monuments and get 4 free temples. Coupled with trading posts only giving 1 gold per turn early in the game, and trade routes being nerfed for small cities, I can see this situation coming up fairly easily.

 

[MadDjinn]

One interesting (concern?) is that if it does just give 4 regular buildings, you could run into a situation where you knock your gold per turn into the negative. Especially if you have 4 monuments and get 4 free temples. Coupled with trading posts only giving 1 gold per turn early in the game, and trade routes being nerfed for small cities, I can see this situation coming up fairly easily.

yeah.. take it at your own risk?

Then again, Monarchy is right there for the taking (free gold) and you can just sell lux resources.

I think Askia's temples are maintenance free though.

 

[Martin Alvito]

This is also why I want to explore the new changes right away. There's some possibilities in there for some powerful starts. (if Askia can get free mud pyramid mosques - big culture boom - best temple in the game)

If the maintenance is also being picked up, I'd usually rather play France. It's the same net culture, but you get the free bonus Culture early, which means that you end up with an extra SP. I'll take that over the Barb bonus unless I plan to warmonger Culture, in which case Askia is the better choice.

If it counts Wats, that's going to be absurdly broken.

Unless you're planning on staying with just your capital for a while, I'd say Liberty is a better starting SP than Tradition.

If you do the math, you'll get early policies faster by taking Tradition, then Liberty. The only exception is if you build a Monument, and that's almost invariably a terrible idea. Early is very scarce and there are much better uses for it.

One interesting (concern?) is that if it does just give 4 regular buildings, you could run into a situation where you knock your gold per turn into the negative. Especially if you have 4 monuments and get 4 free temples. Coupled with trading posts only giving 1 gold per turn early in the game, and trade routes being nerfed for small cities, I can see this situation coming up fairly easily.

I don't see that as a problem as long as you're improving your luxuries.

Or alternatively, go for Meritocracy to get the free early Great Person.

The only use there that I can see is for the free tech. Otherwise, you'll want a GE for one of the stronger midgame Wonders, or possibly the Oracle if you want a Culture win.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

The...Culture border expansion discount in cities... effect (that was previously in Landed elite)
has been
.... placed on Tradition branch opener.

Haha, ahh, gotcha.

 

[MadDjinn]

The only use there that I can see is for the free tech. Otherwise, you'll want a GE for one of the stronger midgame Wonders, or possibly the Oracle if you want a Culture win.

GS for fast(er) education or Longswords or CS or Gunpowder if no iron around... yeah, that might be nice.

Very early GM though... drop it into a Maritime state for really fast growth early or into a cultural CS for big bump in culture early. That can be played very easily. Not to mention it'll pay for a few RAs if you only have military CSs around.

GE - yeah, could be nice if timed properly after an RA pack goes through.

GA - no.. the GM for a cultural CS will likely do better. Though a settled artist really early may be a nice bump in culture for a culture OCC game. Still think the CS route would be better though.

GG - menh, that's what honour is for.

 

[Martin Alvito]

I see a free GS as extremely hot for a Babylon player that wants to Rifle rush. I suppose that a GM might be even stronger, since it would probably let you max out on Research Agreements early on.

 

[Rittmeyer]

Without the Oligarchy bonus, the possibility of using the meritocracy GE to build the Himeji Castle is really appealing in Deity. You even get a nice culture bonus to keep those policies coming.

 

[vexing]

everyone has assumptions about how the 4 free culture buildings will work, it might give a unique building, something like 2 culture and 0 maintenance.

i highly doubt it'll give the next building you can build as some people have supposed (ie temple if you have monument, broadcast tower if you have museum)

 

[Calouste]

everyone has assumptions about how the 4 free culture buildings will work, it might give a unique building, something like 2 culture and 0 maintenance.

i highly doubt it'll give the next building you can build as some people have supposed (ie temple if you have monument, broadcast tower if you have museum)

I agree. I was just thinking what would happen if you pick Legalism and you have already build a Monument but haven't researched Philosophy yet?