Feedback and help with a history simulation game.

[Pickledtezcat]

Hi all, I'm currently working on a small project to make a history simulation game.

I'm going to be using the Blender Game Engine and coding in Python.

You can find a topic on the Blender artist's forum with info about graphics and code and all that, but what I'm looking for here is some help with the history and social content of the game.

The idea is that the game would be somewhat like civilization (Most similar to civ I in graphics style, using single images for units and a flat 2d world map) but instead of leading a single civilization from 3000bc to 2000ad you would instead hop from one civilization to another as they change, rise fall, merge or mutate.

For example:
Scandinavian Reindeer herders > Vikings > Norse > Normans > English > United States

You will get to choose how you switch (for example after 1066 you could remain with the Normans who would join with the Franks and could become part of France or The Holy Roman Empire). It's also an alternative history sim, so you could end up conquering France instead of England, or perhaps settle Brazil instead of North America.

The game will feature states (players) which can be part of a larger Nation, league or Civilization (team). Old states and nations may become unstable and fragment. New states will rise and their identity will depend on their location, time period and cultural herritage. For example a new state starting in Medieval Brittany might be Amorica, if the citizens are predominantly Celtic, or it might be Normandy if they are Scandinavian, or it could be Northern France (distict from France, which would automatically become Southern France) or maybe even Islamic France, Or Aztec France if a foreign (non historical) power is there.

The game is going to be largely about trade, and dimplomacy, Cultural development and scientific progress rather than combat. You can fight wars, and even build large empires, but most large empires are transitory, the largest Empires in history fell apart often within a single century.

What I'm looking for is lists of nations, civilizations, cultures and toponyms.
Also ideas for tech trees, types of units and resources.

If you'd like to suggest a civilization or nation I could do with the following:

Names (The most common name of the state) ex: England, The English
Adjectives (What the people are called) ex: English
Location (Real world Modern region from which to spawn) ex: South East England
Ethnic makeup (possible parent civs) ex: Germanic, Celtic
Favoured Colours (for use in the flag) ex: white, red
Favoured Emblems (for use in the flag) ex: Dragon, Horizontal Cross
Favoured Religion (for use in calculating spawn probablities) ex: Christian
Favoured Ideology (How are they ruled?) ex: Kingdom
Main Cities (No more than 4) ex: London, Winchester, Portsmouth
Dynasties (Names of up to 4 famous Dynasties*) ex: Plantaganet, Tudor, York, Jacobite
Possible Colony/break away states (Name of the state, not the city if possible) ex: Australia, Canada, America
Time/Tech period (Spawn window) ex: Middle Ages

Individual kings or Queens if no Dynastry information exists.

Other example would be:
Korea,The Koreans/Korean/Korean Peninsula/East Asian/White, Dark Pink/Taeguk, Yin-Yang/Buddhism,Confucianism/Kingdom/Seoul,Pyeongyang,Gyeongju/Goguryeo, Shilla,Joseon/None/Bronze Age

Aztec,The Aztecs/Aztec/Mexica/Mexican/Mexico City/Meso American,South American /Jade Green, Dark Red/Eagle, Snake/Meso American Pantheon/Empire/Tenochtitlan, Texcoco, Tlacopan/Itzcoatl, Huitzilihuitl, Moctezuma/None/Neolithic

The beaker Culture/Beaker People/None/None/Portugal/None/Dark Brown, Random/Cup,Axe Head/None/Loose Culture/None/None/Neolithic

If you seperate the entries with forward slashes and commas between multiple entries I can easily add them to a spreadsheet wich can then be used to create a dictionary for the Game engine to use in creating States or Civilization. If a peice of infomation is missing write None, with a capital "N".

I'll also post some ideas about Inovations(techs), Traditions(civics), Religions, Ideologies, Military units etc... so I can get some feedback on my ideas.

Thanks for taking a look and thank you in advance if you decide to contribute. It's a non-profit project and one that I come back to from time to time, hoping to get it finished eventually.

 

[Plotinus]

This sounds interesting. But be warned, this thread will very quickly become an argument about how to define civilisations/countries/nations/states/ethnicities/cultures etc unless you keep a close eye on it...

 

[sophie]

This sounds interesting. But be warned, this thread will very quickly become an argument about how to define civilisations/countries/nations/states/ethnicities/cultures etc unless you keep a close eye on it...

Yeah, pretty much this. How do you define civilization in this context? Are the whole Chinese polity a civilization? Would it then be fair to classify, say, the Germans or the Dutch as a civilization? If you're going as small as the Duchy of Normandy or the Kingdom of England we ARE going to be here for eternity, just a warning.

An example of what Plotinus is worried about: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=467504

Also maps: How are you going to do maps? The problem with civ is that the world map often has to be abstracted (owing to it's reliance on square tiles) to such an extent that you can't really get the kind of detail I think you're looking for.

If you're looking for inspiration I'd suggest you look no further than the Paradox Interactive line of games, particularly the Europa Universalis series, which already does many of the things you suggested.

 

[History_Buff]

This sounds interesting. But be warned, this thread will very quickly become an argument about how to define civilisations/countries/nations/states/ethnicities/cultures etc unless you keep a close eye on it...

Yeah, this.

Also, from a technical point of view, making all those nations, and being able to switch between them all sound extremely difficult to code efficiently.

Like Owen mentioned, there is a game called Europa Universalis that does something like this already, but they have a devil of a time managing it all. Though depending on the turn system you use, that might make your task a lot easier.

 

[Flying Pig]

This sounds a lot like Rhye's and Fall of Civilisation for Civ IV

 

[Serutan]

I think instead of forcing the player to change their civ over time, you should pick a number of starting points, sort of like Hearts of Iron.

 

[Pickledtezcat]

Yes, there will be lots of people arguing what is a civilization and what is not, but for the sake of the game it doesn't really matter. Is the USA a civilization? No, it's a federation of states, each of which is an ex-european colony. Is the Corded Ware Culture a civilization? No, it's a loose collection of non-states which were united only in their taste for pottery.

Here is a rough list of some of the states I'm thinking of adding:

#    Noun    Time Period    Region    
1    Olmec    0    Mexico    NORTH AMERICA
2    Maya    1        
3    Zapotec    1        
4    Mixtec    2        
5    Aztec    3        
6    Mexicans    4        
7    Algonquian    3    New England    
8    Iroquois    2        
9    Mahiccan    3        
10    America    4        
11    Sioux    3    Great Lakes    
12    Comanche    3    California    
13    Anasazi    2        
14    Miwok    3        
15    Mississippi    2    Mississippi    
16    Timuca    2    Florida    
17    Blackfoot    3    Cascade    
18    Crow    3        
19    Canada    4    Ontario    
20    Inuit    4    Nunavut    
21    Polynesians    0    Polynesia    SOUTH AMERICA
22    Arawak    3    Caribean    
23    Caribs    3        
24    Cubans    4        
25    Saladoid    2    Venezuela    
26    Venezuelans    4        
27    Columbians    4    Columbia    
28    Andeans    3        
29    Amazonians    3    North Brazil    
30    Inca    2    Peru    
31    Chavin    2        
32    Peruvians    4        
33    Tiuanaco    3    Chile    
34    Chileans    4        
35    Brazilians    4    East Brazil    
36    Bolivians    3    Bolivia    
37    Argentinians    4    Argentina    
38    English    3    Britain    EUROPE
39    Scottish    3        
40    Celts    1        
41    British    4        
42    Gauls    1    France    
43    Franks    2        
44    Burgundians    3        
45    French    3        
46    Swiss    3        
47    Flemish    3    Netherlands    
48    Dutch    3        
49    Spanish    3    Spain    
50    Visigoths    2        
51    Navarrese    2        
52    Castilians    2        
53    Leonese    2    Portugal    
54    Portuguese    3        
55    Saxons    1    Germany    
56    Bavarians    3        
57    Ostrogoths    2        
58    Angles    2        
59    Austrians    3        
60    Prussians    3        
61    Germans    4        
62    Romans    1    Italy    
63    Lombards    2        
64    Venetians    3        
65    Scicilians    3        
66    Tuscans    2        
67    Italians    4        
68    Magyar    1    Balkans    
69    Huns    1        
70    Slavs    1        
71    Bohemians    2    Poland    
72    Poles    3        
73    Greeks    1    Greece    
74    Macedonians    1        
75    Minoans    0        
76    Byzantines    2        
77    Lithuanians    2    Baltics    
78    Baltics    1        
79    Romanians    1    Romania    
80    Thracians    1        
81    Bulgarians    1        
82    Kievans    2    Ukraine    
83    Ukrainians    3        
84    Danes    3    Denmark    
85    Vikings    2        
86    Scandinavians    2    Norway    
87    Norwegians    4        
88    Norse    1        
89    Swedes    3    Sweden    
90    Teutons    0        
91    Finns    3    Finland    
92    Ottomans    2    Turkey    MIDDLE EAST
93    Turks    4        
94    Trojans    0        
95    Syrians    2    Syria    
96    Hittites    0        
97    Phoneticians    1        
98    Israelis    0    Palestine    
99    Palestinians    4        
100    Assyrians    1    Babylon    
101    Babylonians    0        
102    Iraqis    4        
103    Persians    1    Persia    
104    Iranians    3        
105    Arabians    2    Arabia    
106    Yemenis    4    South Arabia    
107    Egyptians    0    Egypt    AFRICAN
108    Nubians    1        
109    Kushans    1    Ethiopia    
110    Ethiopians    2        
111    Libyans    4    Libya    
112    Carthaginians    1    Carthage    
113    Algerians    4    Morocco    
114    Moroccans    2    Marrakesh    
115    Berbers    2        
116    Mali    2    Mali    
117    Bantu    2    Songhai    
118    Songhai    2        
119    Nigerians    4        
120    Kongolese    3    Congo    
121    Angolan    4    Angola    
122    Khoisans    2    Kalahari    
123    Muttapani    3    Muttapa    
124    Zimbabweans    2    Zimbabwe    
125    Zulus    3        
126    Madagascans    3    Madagascar    
127    Russians    3    Russia    CENTRAL ASIAN
128    Sythians    1        
129    Albanians    3    Caucuses    
130    Cimmerians    1        
131    Georgians    4        
132    Kazakhstanis    4    Turkestan    
133    Afghans    2    Afghanistan    
134    Bactrians    1        
135    Kashmiris    2    Indus Valley    
136    Harrapans    0        
137    Pakistanis    4        
138    Gujaratis    2    North India    
139    Mayurans    1        
140    Dravidians    0        
141    Indians    4    South India    
142    Tamils    1        
143    Cholasians    1        
144    Tibetans    1    Tibet    
145    Samaritans    2    Central Asia    
146    Bagans    2    Myanmar    EAST ASIA
147    Burmese    3        
148    Mon    1    Vietnam    
149    Vietnamese    3        
150    Thais    2    Thailand    
151    Khmers    1    Khmer    
152    Cambodians    4        
153    Sumatrans    2    Sumatra    
154    Malaysians    2    Malay    
155    Philippinos    4        
156    Javans    3    Java    
157    Astronesians    1        
158    Borneoans    2    West Indonesia    
159    Indonesians    3    East Indonesia    
160    Papuans    2    Papua    
161    Formosans    1    Formosa    
162    Taiwanese    4        
163    Han    1    South China    
164    Song    2        
165    Wu    0        
166    Qin    1        
167    Chinese    3        
168    Shang    0    North China    
169    Zhou    1        
170    Dalian    3    West China    
171    Liao    2    Inner Mongolia    
172    Khitan    1        
173    Wei    1        
174    Mongolians    2    Outer Mongolia    
175    Manchurians    3    Manchuria    
176    Balheans    3    Outer Manchuria    
177    Jurchens    2        
178    Goguryeons    1        
179    Gojoseons    0    Korea    
180    Shilla    1        
181    Joseon    2        
182    Koreans    4        
183    Jomons    0    Japan    
184    Yamataikokun    1        
185    Japanese    2        
186    Ainu    1        
187    Maori    1    New Zealand    
188    Tasmanians    4    Tasmania    
189    Aborigines    4    North Australia

Although many of these could be considered as dynasties or colonies of another state.

The names and other data will be used as labels for the dynamic AI based agents underneath. Just as we use such labels as the Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) to label a state which we know very little about.
Most of the data about the states will come from in game, what kind of food do they eat? Do they wear silk, or Animal fur? I plan to write a script that will compare a state's resources and culture with a list of real world dishes and fashions to give the player some info about who they are interacting with. I'd really like to create a king maker which will start with a base model and then clothe them acording to time period and culture, adding such details as background architecture, weapons and hairstyles, but it would really require quite a lot of work, so that's something I'm thinking of as an expansion.

Not every state will apear in every game, but I want the potential for any of them to apear. They will not all be called civilizations, but their title will depend on their structure. I hope to include both fixed states as well as migrating nomad states, cities won't automatically be part of a state, but when they are attached to a state they will greatly increase their abilities.

The game will be tile based, but a sinlge state can be anywhere from 1 tile up to nine tiles, and there's nothing to stop states being adjacent to each other. In civilization you population is tied more or less directly to the amount of land you have, but in the real world some of the laregest populations are squeezed in to small areas. A state with nine tiles of permafrost is not going to be able to compete with one which has even one tile of good temperate farm land, unless the first has some good resources on that land. Population will grow based on food availablility and also trade, you will be able to import and export food, and later some ideologies will allow you to centralize your food production, sharing it out from the capital.

The structure of your states will change along with your dominant ideology and your active traditions. There will be proto cultures at first, which don't have a flag, and can't build military or add specialists. Proto cultures may be capable of migration, I'm seeing how that will work. Next up are tribal chiefdoms, A typical state of the Bronze age, they are not really united under a single ruler and so they can be very unstable. Also some of their specialists and military units have a high chance of being "in revolt" and so not available for use in any give turn. Later states reflect more closely the usual Civilization model, and may include Republics and Kingdoms, or Empires. Later in the game you may get the chance to form formal lasting alliances and federations. Real world equivalents would be The Hanseatic League, Nato, The Commonwealth of Great Brittain, or the USSR. These will not be in the list of civilizations because they will be created dynamically. I already have code which can determine which continent a particular state is in, and from there it's a simple matter of combining text strings and choosing colours and Flag icons to reflect the kind of state being created.

 

[Pickledtezcat]

Yeah, this.

Also, from a technical point of view, making all those nations, and being able to switch between them all sound extremely difficult to code efficiently.

Like Owen mentioned, there is a game called Europa Universalis that does something like this already, but they have a devil of a time managing it all. Though depending on the turn system you use, that might make your task a lot easier.

Not all nations will be in play at any one time (I'm thinking of a limit of 30 or so active teams). The code is not the difficult part, the difficult part is making the dictionary which stores all the names, lables and such ready to create a new team on demand.

I'm thinking of having a phase type turn system. You give orders to your units and choose any new units or inovations or specialists or whatever, then hit the end turn key. The AI calculates its moves, sets its orders and then moves on to the resolution phase where trades, combats and other things are resolved. then a regeneration phase where all the units and states get their next allocation of fresh movement allowances. Then back to the player.

Military units in the game will not move around the map like the ground units in Civilization, but instead will be stored in a city somewhat like the aircraft of the civ games. Each type of unit will have a max range and you'll be able to give them orders such as move to another state, raid an enemy tile or attack another state. (or help with the harvest, train new recurits, guard borders and other things).

The Unit will be greyed out while they undertake thier orders (it could take several turns to move to a far off location) and then when the counter is finished you get to control them again, either in the new city, or in the original city if for example thier assault failed, or they were on a scouting mission.

Overall, I don't want it to be too detailed like Europa Univeralis, and I don't want it to be all about conquest like Civilization. I'd like a somewhat fun, somewhat simple game that young people can play and enjoy, but which reveals hidden depths.

You know, simple mechanics can come togther to create dynamic systems which are quite facinating, or they can fail to amuse if either too much is automated, or too much is left up to micro management.

This sounds a lot like Rhye's and Fall of Civilisation for Civ IV

This video shows somthing like what I'd like to see. The rise and fall of empires, some changing, others being absorbed and later reborn, I want to make a game which can simulate history, but can also diverge from it. I loved the UHVs of Ryhes and Fall, I'd also like the player to be trying for specific rewards, or acheivements other than total world domination.

http://youtu.be/PkgJEVbjh3Q