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Feedback: Buildings and Wonders

Discussion in '[MAC+WIN] Civ4 - History Rewritten' started by Xyth, Jul 16, 2011.

  1. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Yep, I believe I took the code from your Fear promotion and modified it a bit.

    Which sucks. I may have to completely rethink that unit :/

    I was hoping it would incapacitate a rival who managed to withdraw. Ah well.

    Yeah, it's really strange.

    Heh, why not!

    Yeah fair enough. In the beta I've just deleted the relevant sections entirely. Will browse your works for a suitable replacement bonus!

    Yes I did, though I haven't tested them yet.

    Done.

    Thanks. These latest updates have all been included in the beta, which is uploading at this very moment.
     
  2. platyping

    platyping Sleeping Dragon

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    Code:
    	<Define>
    		<DefineName>BASE_FEATURE_PRODUCTION_PERCENT</DefineName>
    		<iDefineIntVal>67</iDefineIntVal>
    	</Define>
    This is why chopping only gives 2/3 as stated in global defines, so it seems that that is so as well for vanilla BTS
     
  3. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Ah mystery solved. Guess Firaxis decided to tone done chopping hammers across the board at some point. I'm rather tempted to change that to 100 in HR and adjust the XML accordingly so it doesn't confuse me every time I try to mod chopping.
     
  4. myclan

    myclan Prince

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    So chopping down forest will give 30 hammers in the future? How about jungle and savannah?
     
  5. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    No. If I set that setting to 100 I'd change each feature's chop value to match what it is in game. Currently the XML value for forest is 30, I'd lower it to 20. There would be no change in game.

    Just an internal change for convenience when modding.
     
  6. Nightstar

    Nightstar Prince

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    The free food when training a worker with the Pyramids can cause a city to grow even if it is set to "avoid growth".
     
  7. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Working on a fix for this. I can't make the city rearrange it's worked tiles and specialists to take the effect into account but I can make the city stay at the threshold and not grow until Avoid Growth is switched off. Not quite sure how to reflect that in the UI though.
     
  8. Jarlaxe Baenre

    Jarlaxe Baenre Emperor

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    I just started a game at a later era (renaissance) and my cities are starting with aqueducts. However, there is no reservoir. Same for the AI.
     
  9. Nightstar

    Nightstar Prince

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    Another Colosseum oddity: I trained a Heavy Footman in the Colosseum city, and had it turned into a Samurai. Just one problem: I haven't met Japan yet! I met their Chinese neighbors and bought their map, so I can see the Japanese cities, but I haven't actually made contact yet.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    It actually only checks if the civ is part of your trade network. I'll add an additional check to ensure you've also met the civ.
     
  11. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Ancient

    Barracks (50h): +4 experience for Melee/Gunpowder units
    Cemetery (40h / Ceremonial Burial): +1 health, allows 1 priest
    Granary (60h / Agriculture): stores 25% food after growth, +1 health with Corn/Potato/Rice/Wheat
    Harbour (60h / Shipbuilding): +1 food on water tiles, requires coastal city
    Kiln (50h / Pottery): +2 production, allows 1 merchant, +1 unhealthiness
    Monument (30h / Carving): +1 culture
    Smokehouse (60h / Fishing): stores 25% food after growth, +1 health with Fish/Shellfish/Crab/Whale
    Stable (80h / Riding): +1 trade route, +4 xp for mounted units
    Tannery (60h / Leather Working): +2 commerce, +1 unhealthiness, +1 happiness from Bison, Furs, Seal
    Theatre (50h / Oratory): +3 culture, allows 2 artists, +1 happiness from Hit Drama
    Walls (80h / Construction): +50% defense, -50% bombard damage, +4 experience for Archery units
    Water Well (30h / Mining): +1 food, cannot be built in coastal or river cities


    Classical

    Aqueduct (100h / Plumbing): +2 health, provides fresh water source
    Apothecary (100h / Medicine): Heals unit extra 10%/turn, allows 1 doctor
    Castle (100h / Architecture): +50% defense, -25% bombard damage, +4 experience for Siege units, allows 1 spy
    Forge (120h / Steel Working): +2 engineers, +10% production with Peat/Timber, +1 unhealthiness
    Jail (120h / Law): +25% espionage, -25% maintenance
    Library (100h / Writing): +2 culture, +25% research, allows 1 scientist
    Lighthouse (60h / Navigation): +2 trade routes, requires coastal city
    Market (150h / Currency): +25% wealth, allows 2 merchants, +1 happiness with Gems/Amber/Jade/Salt
    Stadium (80h / Engineering): +1 happiness, +1 happiness per 10% culture rate
    Weaver (80h / Aesthetics): +2 culture, +25% culture, +1 happiness from Dye/Cotton/Flax/Silk


    Medieval

    Bank (Finance): +50% wealth, constructed by Great Merchant
    Baths (120h / Welfare): +1 culture, +2 health, allows 1 doctor
    Courthouse (180h / Constitution): +2 espionage, +25% espionage, -25% maintenance
    Grocer (150h / Horticulture): +25% wealth, allows 1 merchant, +1 health from Fruit/Olives/Cocoa/Spice
    Post Office (100h / Paper): +1 culture, +1 trade route, allows 1 spy
    School (200h / Education): +2 culture, +25% research, +25% GPP
    Shipyard (140h / Guilds): +10% production, +3 experience for naval units, requires coastal city
    Tavern (160h / Patronage): +2 espionage, +25% culture, +25% trade route yield, +1 happiness from Coffee/Tea/Wine/Tobacco


    Renaissance

    Armoury (Replaceable Parts): +50% military unit production, constructed by Great General
    Civic Square (240h / Urban Planning): +2 culture, +2 espionage, +25% culture, +25% GPP, allows 1 spy
    Clinic (Biology): +5 health, constructed by Great Doctor
    Constabulary (200h / Civil Liberties): +25% espionage, +1 happiness per 10% espionage rate, +10% domestic Great General emergence
    Customs House (180h / Charter): +2 espionage, +50% foreign trade yield
    Distillery (180h / Chemistry): +2 culture, +25% wealth, -25% war weariness, +1 unhealthy, +1 happiness from Sugar
    Drydock (220h / Hydraulics): +3 xp for naval units, builds naval units 50% faster, requires coastal city
    Hospital (250h / Biology): +3 health, heals unit extra 10%/turn, allows 2 doctors
    Levee (160h / Hydraulics): +1 production on river tiles
    Museum (Sociology): +50% culture, constructed by Great Artist
    Observatory (200h / Optics): +25% research, allows 1 scientist
    Sewer (200h / Sanitation): +2 health, +1 population, allows 1 spy
    University (Humanism): +50% research, constructed by Great Scientist


    Industrial

    Broadcast Tower (220h / Radio): -25% war weariness, allows 2 artists, +1 happiness from Hit Singles
    Bunker (240h / Radio): +25% espionage, +50% defense against espionage, -50% damage from air units
    Cinema (200h / Film): +25% culture, +1 happy per 10% culture rate, +1 happiness from Hit Movies
    Factory (250h / Machine Tools): +25% production, +50% production with power, allows 2 engineers, +3 unhealthiness
    Industrial Park (Plastics): +50% production, constructed by Great Engineer
    Intelligence Agency (Journalism): +50% espionage, constructed by Great Spy
    Laboratory (300h / Electricity): +25% research, allows 2 scientists, +50% spaceship production, +1 unhealthiness
    News Press (280h / Journalism): +3 culture, +3 espionage, +1 free specialist
    Supermarket (260h / Plastics): +2 food, +25% wealth, +1 health from Cattle/Pig/Sheep/Deer

    Coal Plant (200h / Steam Power): provides dirty power with Coal, +2 unhealthiness
    Gas Plant (250h / Pneumatics): provides dirty power with Gas


    Modern

    Airport (320h / Aviation): airlift 1 unit per turn, +4 air unit capacity, +3 xp for air units, +1 trade route, +1 unhealthiness
    Fallout Shelter (250h / Atomic Physics): -50% damage from nukes, requires Manhattan Project
    Public Transport (280h / Combustion): +25% trade route yield, no unhealthiness from Village/Town
    Recycling Centre (300h / Composites): no unhealthiness from buildings

    Hydro Plant (300h / Electronics): provides clean power, requires River
    Nuclear Plant (300h / Fission): provides clean power with Uranium, chance of meltdown
    Solar Plant (350h / Laser): provides clean power, maximum latitude 45°


    National Wonders

    Palace (150h): +1 GPP (Prophet), reduces maintenance, +2 culture, +4 espionage
    Royal Cemetery (250h / Property): +1 GPP (Doctor), +100% GPP, +4 culture, requires Cemeteries
    Heroic Epic (200h / Oratory): +1 GPP (Artist), +100% military unit production, +4 culture, requires level 4 unit

    Academy (400h / Philosophy): +1 GPP (Scientist), +100% research, allows 3 scientists, +4 culture, requires Libraries
    Mint (300h / Currency): +1 GPP (Merchant), +25% commerce from Gold/Silver
    National Monument (250h / Law): +1 GPP (Engineer), -25% war weariness in all cities, +4 culture
    Seasonal Palace (200h): + 1 GPP (Spy), reduces maintenance, +4 espionage, requires Castles

    National Theatre (300h / Patronage): +1 GPP (Artist), +100% culture, allows 3 artists, requires Theatres
    Military Academy (500h / Logistics): +1 GPP (Spy), +4 experience for land units, free Leadership promotion, +4 espionage,requires Barracks
    Naval Arsenal (400h / Compass): +1 GPP (Engineer), +2 experience for naval units, +1 production on water tiles, requires Shipyards

    National Gallery (500h / Nationalism): +1 GPP (Artist), no unhappiness in city, +4 culture
    Stock Exchange (600h / Corporation): +1 GPP (Merchant), +100% wealth, allows 3 merchants, requires Markets

    Iron Works (700h / Metallurgy): +1 GPP (Engineer), +25% production with Iron/Coal, allows 3 engineers, +2 unhealthiness, requires Forges
    Refinery (700h / Refining): +1 GPP (Merchant), +25% production with Gas/Oil, +50% trade route yield, +2 unhealthiness, requires Distilleries
    National Park (600h / Ecology): +1 GPP (Doctor), no unhealthiness from population, 1 free specialist per Reserve
    Telephone Network (800h / Electricity): +1 GPP (Scientist), +25% commerce with Copper/Rubber, +1 trade route in all cities, +4 espionage

    Red Cross (800h / Civil Rights): +1 GPP (Doctor), free March promotion, allows 3 doctors, +4 culture
    Security Bureau (800h / Computers): +1 GPP (Spy), +100% espionage, allows 3 spies, +50% defense against espionage



    Changes from 1.20 marked in red, commentary to follow in a new post, eventually. Feel free to comment in the meantime though, feedback absolutely desired. Also, as this ended up being a more extensive review than I anticipated, we probably need to do a semi-comprehensive review of UBs for 1.21.
     
  12. Nightstar

    Nightstar Prince

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    I like it. It looks much more balanced than the current version. Having the Forge use peat and timber seems a bit odd thematically, though.
     
  13. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Thanks, there will undoubtably be some further tweaks to make, but I think this provide a much better base to build and balance from. Systems such as stability and disease should add some more variation when/if they're added in future versions.

    They're the fuel needed to run a forge, just like how factories need fuel (via a power station) to boost their production. So I think it makes reasonable sense. One goal of this review was to tone down the number of production bonuses available, especially in the early game, as production was just too strong in comparison to commerce. In 1.20 there are 6 production modifiers from resources, in 1.21 there'll be just these 2 (Peat and Timber) on the Forge.
     
  14. Nightstar

    Nightstar Prince

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    I wouldn't think Prime Timber would be any better as fuel than any other kind of wood, but I suppose that just takes us back into the old "why do you need high-grade Stone for paved roads?" territory. Game balance just has to trump realism sometimes.
     
  15. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

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    Here's some feedback, including suggestions on UBs, as requested. Changes to Xyth's last draft are marked in red.
    UBs are listed under the building they replace. They retain all the bonuses of their original buildings, plus those entered next to their names.

    UBs have been completely reworked such that:
    • all UBs are properly unique and do not share bonuses with any other UBs;
    • UBs grow steadily stronger the later they become available;
    • all UBs are available before the Industrial Era;
    • no building has more than two corresponding UBs; and
    • UB bonuses are not linked to health or happiness resources, as players on random maps are not guaranteed access to them; but
    • if a UB has more than one bonus, then one of these bonuses may be linked to strategic resources, as these are more widespread.


    ANCIENT

    Barracks (50h / Ritual): +1 espionage, +4XP for Gunpowder/Melee units
    Dojo (Japan): free City Garrison I promotion, increase cost to 80h
    Ikhanda (Zululand): free City Raider I promotion, increase cost to 80h

    Cemetery (40h / Ceremonial Burial): +1 health, allows 1 priest
    Mausoleum (India): +1 happiness with Marble/Stone, allows 1 artist
    Ziara (Swahililand): +2 culture

    Granary (60h / Agriculture): stores 25% food after growth, +1 health with Corn/Rice/Wheat

    Harbour (60h / Shipbuilding): +1 food on water tiles, +1 health with Fish, requires coastal city
    Cothon (Phoenicia): free Reinforced Hull I promotion

    Kiln (60h / Pottery): +2 production, allows 1 merchant, +1 unhealthiness

    Monument (30h / Carving): +1 culture
    Bamah (Israel): allows 2 priests
    Obelisk (Egypt): +1 production

    Smokehouse (60h / Pastoralism): stores 25% food after growth, +1 health with Bison/Deer/Salt
    Tipi (Sioux): free Nomad I promotion

    Stable (80h / Riding): +1 trade route, +4XP for Mounted/Recon units
    Ger (Mongolia): free Blitz promotion
    Hippodrome (Byzantium): +1 happiness with Horse/Elephant, allows 1 merchant

    Tannery (60h / Leather Working): +2 wealth, +1 unhealthiness, +1 happiness with Furs/Seal
    Longhouse (Iroquois): free Woodsman I promotion​

    Theatre (50h / Oratory): +2 culture, +25% culture, allows 2 artists, +1 happiness from Hit Drama
    Kiva (Anasazi): +25% defense
    Odeon (Greece): +25% GPP

    Walls (80h / Construction): +50% defense, -50% bombard damage, +4XP for Archery units
    Amba (Ethiopia): -25% war weariness
    Dun (Celtica): free Guerilla I promotion​

    Water Well (40h / Mining): +1 food, cannot be built in coastal or riverside cities
    Huwasi (Hatti): +25% culture, may be built in coastal and riverside cities, increase cost to 60h
    Terrace (Inca): +1 health, may be built in coastal and riverside cities, increase cost to 60h


    NOTES
    • Espionage points from Barracks bring the espionage system into play from the start of the game. (Or at least the jockeying for passive benefits). Barracks are weaker now that they only apply to Melee and Gunpowder units, so it balances out. Barracks are now unlocked at Ritual; the culture slider, in turn, unlocks at Philosophy.
    • The Japanese Shale Plant is a weak UB that doesn't interact well with HR's new power plants. I've replaced it with the Dojo. There is art available: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=20432
    • A seafood-dominated Smokehouse doesn't make much sense to me. I prefer to keep Salt there, and add the big game: Deer and Bison. Seafood resources are instead attached to various coastal buildings. This isn't unfair to inland cities since (a) coastal cities give up a lot of valuable tiles for marginal Coast and Ocean, so extra health is par for the course; and (b) seafood is most popular in coastal regions anyway.
    • The Sioux get the Tipi instead of the Totem Pole because the Sioux don't build totem poles. (Totem poles are part of the culture of the Pacific Northwest.) And here's just the art you need: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=2871
    • The Mongolian Keshig starts with Blitz so I suggest you replace that promotion with Mobility. Giving Blitz to all units is not nearly as powerful as it seems; units are rarely healthy enough to attack more than once in one turn, so it mostly helps attackers pillage.
    • The Tannery swaps bonus commerce for bonus gold, as it's difficult to see how Tannery commerce could be converted via the slider to anything else.
    • Without bonus GPP, the Theatre is a little lacking, so I added +25% culture.
    • Ethiopia swaps the somewhat generic Stele for the Amba, a specifically Ethiopian creation. Interestingly, the Crossroads of the World mod included in BtS has an Amba UB for Ethiopia. Here is some possible art: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11144 (bizarrely listed as the first of the Mesoamerican forts.)
    • The Huwasi as a Water Well UB makes a certain sense; the most sacred Huwasi stones would be found near springs.
     
  16. platyping

    platyping Sleeping Dragon

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    UBs which grant free promotions that are available for certain traits such as city garrison 1 means the ub is totally useless for those leaders.
    Similarly granting free promotions that are not available for certain combat class looks weird too since neither mounted nor recon units can get blitz
     
  17. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

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    CLASSICAL

    Aqueduct (100h / Plumbing): +1 health, provides fresh water source
    Ab Anbar (Persia): allows 1 engineer
    Baray (Angkor): +1 food​

    Castle (120h / Architecture): +2 culture, +50% defense, +4XP for Siege units, allows 1 spy, requires Walls
    Citadel (Spain): free Accuracy promotion
    Vegvar (Hungary): +4XP for Mounted units​

    Garden (120h / Medicine): +2 science, +25% GPP, allows 1 doctor, +1 health from Spice
    Apothecary (Amurru): heals units an extra 10%/turn, allows 1 scientist
    Marae (Polynesia): free Navigation I promotion

    Jail (120h / Law): +1 espionage, +25% espionage, -25% war weariness, allows 1 spy
    Altar (Aztec): +2XP for Melee units, -50% anger duration from sacrificing population
    Ziggurat (Sumeria): +2XP for Siege units, -25% bombard damage

    Library (100h / Writing): +2 culture, +25% research, allows 2 scientists
    Ho Trai (Siam): can build missionaries without monasteries

    Lighthouse (60h / Navigation): +1 trade route, requires coastal city
    Karum (Assyria): does not require coastal city, increase cost to 80h
    Trading Post (Scandanavia): free Amphibious promotion

    Market (150h / Currency): +25% wealth, allows 2 merchants, +1 happiness with Gems/Amber/Jade
    Souq (Maghreb): +1 trade route
    Forum (Rome): -25% maintenance

    Smithy (120h / Steel Working): +25% production, allows 2 engineers, +1 happiness from Gold/Silver, +1 unhealthiness
    Blast Furnace (Nubia): free Barrage I promotion

    Stadium (100h / Engineering): +1 happiness, +1 happiness per 20% culture rate, allows 1 doctor
    Ball Court (Maya): +2 happiness from Rubber, decrease cost to 50h
    Kalari (Dravida): +25% military production

    Weaver (80h / Aesthetics): +25% culture, allows 1 artist, +1 happiness from Dye/Cotton/Flax/Silk
    Pavilion (China): +2XP for Archery units, allows 1 spy
    Zandu (Kongo): +50% trade yield​


    NOTES
    • In my head, base culture from buildings indicates architectural merit (Monument) while percent culture indicates fostering of the arts (Weavers and fashion). Thus the Castle picks up some base culture. It loses resistance to bombardment since (a) sieges last awfully long currently; (b) Castles are available much earlier in HR than BtS; (c) the revolt city mission is too powerful in comparison. Ziggurats get bonus bombard resistance, bringing them in line with Castles in 1.20.
    • I decided to swap the Amorite UB with your suggested new building on the theory that Gardens are the more universal building. It's bonuses have been greatly increased because there was very little reason to build it otherwise. Doctor specialists aren't all that strong; they're equivalent to a grassland Farm with no other bonuses, and there are often better choices available.
    • Polynesians are the best navigators with their free Navigation I promotion from the Marae. The Vikings get Amphibious instead. Berserks start with the Amphibious promotion already but that's by design; inland cities can train Berserks while coastal cities train everything else.
    • Pure specialist pools increase the demand for specialist slots so I've added one extra specialist slot of each type other than Priest: an Artist at Weavers, a Doctor at Stadiums, an Engineer at Levees, a Merchant at Supermarkets, a Scientist at Libraries, and a Spy at Jails. Five specialists of each type can now be unlocked by buildings. The Doctor at the Stadium is justified considering the violence and risk of injury present in most sports and competitions.
    • I still think the Jail is better for war weariness, and the Constabulary for city maintenance.
    • The Ho Trai, as a temple library, is intended to unlock missionaries for every religion. If a religion is present in the city, its corresponding missionary can be built - Theocracy not required.
    • The Lighthouse loses one trade route because we already have plenty from Stables and Post Offices. If you're thinking of adding another mid game trade route, I'd suggest you move +1 trade route in every city from Telecommunications to Guilds. Also, the Karum, as a trade post, works well as an all-terrain Lighthouse replacement.
    • The Forge is renamed the Smithy, referring to the actual building in which a forge is run. It gets a flat production bonus, plus happiness from Gold and Gems. I agree that we should reduce the number of resource production modifiers; I have other plans for Timber and Peat, and they're a bad choice for the Smithy anyway, since they're relatively rare and the Smithy is the only production building available in the first four eras.
    • The Weaver bonuses to culture and textiles are a decent fit for the Pavilion, even if it's obviously not a direct replacement. Meanwhile, the Kongo "Mbwadi" is grossly misnamed. Mbwadi, the root for the Portuguese "momboares" literally means mb (people) + wadi (seven), and refers to the "people of the seven kingdoms of Kongo." I've suggested Zandu, instead. It's the Kongo word for market: better, but far from ideal.


    Protective leaders no longer get City Garrison I for free, so there's no overlap. And the free promotions are intended to apply to every class that normally gets those promotions, and no others. So the Ger would provide Blitz to Mounted units, as they are eligible for the promotion, but not Recon units.
     
  18. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

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    MEDIEVAL

    Bank (Finance): +50% wealth, +50% trade yield, constructed by Great Merchant

    Bath (120h / Welfare): +1 culture, +2 health, heals units an extra 10%/turn, allows 1 doctor, requires Aqueduct
    Candi (Indonesia): +2 happiness with state religion
    Hammam (Turkey): +1 happiness, allows 1 additional doctor

    Courthouse (180h / Constitution): +1 culture, +2 espionage, +25% espionage, -25% maintenance
    Rathaus (Germany): -50% anger duration from drafting
    Sejmik (Poland): +4XP for Gunpowder units

    Grocer (150h / Horticulture): +25% wealth, allows 1 merchant, +1 health from Fruit/Olives/Cocoa, requires Garden

    Post Office (100h / Paper): +2 espionage, +1 trade route, allows 1 spy, requires Stable
    Salon (France): +4 research, does not require Stable, increase cost to 120h
    Ksour (Mali): +4 wealth, does not require Stable, increase cost to 120h

    School (200h / Education): +1 culture, +25% research, +25% GPP, requires Library
    Madrassa (Arabia): +4 espionage
    Seowon (Korea): +1 free scientist

    Shipyard (140h / Guilds): +2 production, +2XP for Naval units, +1 health from Whale, requires Harbour

    Tavern (160h / Patronage): +2 espionage, +50% trade yield, +1 happiness from Coffee/Tea/Wine/Tobacco
    Public House (England): +1 happiness per 20% wealth rate
    Caravanserai (Kushana): +100% foreign trade yield


    NOTES
    • The Great Person buildings are a bit bland, so I'm suggesting secondary bonuses, starting with bonus trade yield for the Bank. On a related note, since HR can't count fractional trade yields, I think we should stick to fewer but larger trade bonuses: +50% and +100%.
    • The base espionage from buildings in the last draft was too low, not only compared to the +22 espionage in BtS but also the +14 espionage in 1.20. Given that espionage buildings are unlocked later than science and wealth buildings, this is an issue. Even if you don't agree with the treat-espionage-as-culture approach to building bonuses, a little extra at the Barracks, Jail, and Post Office won't go amiss.
    • I've found a better replacement for the Mande Mint: the Ksour! There's no need to change the art, either.
    • In the interests of reducing production bonuses, the Shipyard bonus has been converted to flat production.
     
  19. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Thanks for these suggestions so far, Azoth. I won't comment too much on specific UB bonuses for now, as I'm not yet at that stage, but I will give my thoughts on UBs that have changed building or changed completely.


    Excellent.

    I don't think we need to be too strict here, but certainly good to spread things out a bit more than they are in 1.20. I think a few Industrial UB are too desirable to avoid (e.g. the American Mall), but definitely no modern era UBs.

    Makes sense, though the occasional small bonus as flavour doesn't hurt.


    Good call.

    Hmm, not sure about the Hippodrome as a Stable replacement, despite the horse connection. Stadium makes much more sense to me.

    Better than Barracks for sure.

    The Odeon should definitely be a Theatre replacement.

    Huwasi maybe, but I prefer the Terrace being a Granary replacement.

    Yes, the Shale Plant absolutely needs to go. I was thinking of replacing it with the Shiro (Castle) but the Dojo is a much better idea, particularly since their UW is also a castle. Good find on the art.

    Smoking seafood is a very common practice to this day, so I think it works fine thematically. I neglected to note in my draft that I intend for the Smokehouse to become coastal only (and am pondering the implications of making the Granary inland only). I reckon this works well in terms of the techtree as well, since Fishing was in need of a better bonus, and having both food storage buildings enroute to Property just helped to reinforce the dominance of that path.

    The Tipi feels too generic, and is problematic since so much of the Native American city art consists of tipi anyway. I agree the Totem Pole is inappropriate though, and I have no other suggestions at this time.

    Each commerce type has a total of +100% from regular buildings, so if we did this we'd need to drop the +25% culture from one of the Weaver, Tavern, Civic Square, or Cinema.

    Those stelae are very iconic to the Axumite empire, so I'm not too keen to drop them. I would rename them Hawilt/Hawilti though, as that's what they're known as in Amharic.

    I left this at 2 health primarily for the AI, as it doesn't understand the value of the Reservoir until it's placed.

    Garden is a bit more universal, but Apothecary is more relevant I feel.

    Ziggurat replacing Jails doesn't feel right to me.

    What's your rationale for +1 happiness per 20% culture rate, given in BTS has both the Theatre and Colosseum affecting this, while HR has just the Stadium (in the early game). I thought it better to go with the stronger version, to better reward use of the all too neglected culture slider.

    Kalari replacing Stadium is reasonable.

    Yeah, I think of culture roughly along those lines too. Distribution of base culture and espionage is still something I'm thinking about so I'll comment on it later.

    Fine by me.

    I'm all for adding a 5th specialist slot for each type. Engineer for the Levee is an excellent idea. Will think about the others, but certainly something along these lines.

    There was too much war weariness reduction available prior to 1.20, which is why it was removed from the Jail. With the National Monument moving to the early game (which I really like), it felt like too much reduction too soon if restored to the Jail. I don't wish to switch the positions of the Jail and Courthouse as their UBs suit their currently defined eras, and I like the thematic progression. Though both have existed since classical times, the former represents a more primitive form of justice, the latter a more sophisticated one. Ties in well with the Legal civic category.

    Something that isn't obvious from my draft is that I'm proposing making the Custom House available to inland cities as well. So rather than having a bonus to trade route yield, coastal cities' trade advantage is represented by having extra trade routes. Still mulling the concept over though.

    Yeah, it does funnily enough. Open to the idea. Also, relevent to the Assyrians, I really need to change their terrible UW (the Menagerie).

    Prime Timber is reasonably common, Peat is rarer. I'll wait and see what your idea is for these resources before judging here.

    I don't like the Pavilion much as a UB. I'd like to research other options for the Chinese.

    Yes, I learned that a while ago but haven't got around to changing it. Seems I misread a passage and selected the wrong name for this building. 'Zandu' will do, or perhaps 'Raffia Mill' or similar.


    Late here, I'll comment on the rest in the morning.
     
  20. Azoth

    Azoth Inscrutable

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Messages:
    309
    Location:
    Canada
    RENAISSANCE

    Armoury (Replaceable Parts): +50% military unit production, +4 espionage, constructed by Great General

    Civic Square (240h / Urban Planning): +2 culture, +2 espionage, +25% culture, +25% GPP, allows 1 spy, requires Monument
    Dinh (Vietnam): +1 free artist
    Mall (America): +1 free merchant

    Clinic (250h / Biology): +3 health, heals unit extra 10%/turn, allows 2 doctors

    Constabulary (200h / Civil Liberties): +25% espionage, -25% maintenance, +1 happiness per 10% espionage rate, requires Courthouse

    Customs House (180h / Charter): +1 espionage, +1 health from Crab/Shellfish, +100% foreign trade yield, requires Lighthouse
    Feitoria (Portugal): +1 free spy

    Distillery (180h / Chemistry): +25% wealth, -25% war weariness, +1 unhealthy, +1 happiness from Sugar/Potato, allows 1 scientist, requires Tavern
    Fazenda (Brazil): +10% food

    Drydock (220h / Hydraulics): +50% naval unit production, +4XP for Naval units, +1 unhealthiness, requires Shipyard

    Hospital (Biology): no unhealthiness from buildings, stores 25% food after growth, constructed by Great Doctor

    Intelligence Agency (Nationalism): +50% espionage, -50% maintenance, constructed by Great Spy

    Levee (160h / Hydraulics): +1 production on river tiles, allows 1 engineer, -1 commerce on river tiles
    Dike (Netherlands): +1 free engineer

    Mill (Economics): +20% production with Peat/Timber, +10% production with Horse, +1 trade route, +2XP for Gunpowder units, constructed by Great Engineer

    Museum (Sociology): +50% culture, +50% GPP, +1 happiness per 20% science rate, constructed by Great Artist

    Observatory (200h / Optics): +25% research, allows 1 scientist
    Gompa (Tibet): +4 culture, +1 free priest
    Institute (Russia): +1 free doctor

    Sewer (200h / Sanitation): +2 espionage, +2 health, +1 population, allows 1 spy

    University (Humanism): +4 culture, +50% research, constructed by Great Scientist


    NOTES
    • Various Great Person buildings pick up additional bonuses: espionage for the Armory, GPP and happiness for the Museum, maintenance reduction for the Intelligence Agency, and culture for the University. The Intelligence Agency also unlocks sooner. Like I said, the buildings seemed a bit bland, and they need to be stronger to compete with corporations and Golden Ages.
    • The Great Doctor and Engineer buildings are redesigned. Clinics and Hospitals swap names, and Hospitals pick up significant bonuses. (The Recycling Centre is also changed to avoid overlap.) I'm not sure on the Mill as a name. Milling is a significant productive enterprise but, of course, there are many different kinds of mills. The current bonuses favour an all-of-the-above approach, representing horse mills, peat mills, paper mills, and powder mills. I prefer it to the generic "Industrial Park." What do you think?
    • "Mua Roi Nuoc" is literally water puppetry, a unique Vietnamese art form, but one that is ultimately performed in a theatre. I like the Dinh, or communal house, for the Viet UB instead. It fits the current art just fine.
    • I don't like bonuses such as "+10% Great General emergence" on buildings because they scale wildly with game size. I've cut it from the Constabulary and moved it to the Heroic Epic.
    • One scientist specialist is moved from the Laboratory to the Distillery, because scientists are otherwise very back-loaded. You could instead move a scientist from the Library here, and keep two at the Laboratory.
    • Here's a thought for the Levee: production on river tiles can come at the expense of commerce. This makes a certain amount of sense: in later eras, river transport and irrigation are less important than land reclamation and power generation. More to the point, riverside cities are already very powerful, and a Levee forces players to decide how to specialize them.
    • As a fortified monastery often built high in the mountains, the Gompa is a good match for the Observatory.



    It turns out there are only three Industrial UBs: the Shale Plant, the Research Institute, and the Mall. The Shale Plant is cut. The Institute can substitute for the Observatory, particularly given Russian successes in space exploration; and the Mall can replace the Civic Square, given that it's essentially an expanded shopping arcade. The Russian and American UUs don't kick in until the Renaissance, either, so they're already blank slates for half of the game.

    True. I haven't focused on those but there's certainly scope to, for example, restore the Tea bonus to the Public House.

    My theory is that Hippodromes (essentially racecourses) would always be found with a Stables attached, whereas there would still be Stadiums elsewhere for other sports and combat. Plus, Stadiums are oversubscribed for UBs.

    All right. In that case, how about this?

    Granary (60h / Agriculture): stores 25% food after growth, +1 health with Corn/Rice/Wheat
    Terrace (Inca): +25% defense

    Monument (30h / Carving): +1 culture
    Obelisk (Egypt): -25% war weariness
    Stele (Ethiopia): +25% culture​

    Water Well (40h / Mining): +1 food, cannot be built in coastal or riverside cities
    Bamah (Israel): allows 2 priests, may be built in coastal and riverside cities, increase cost to 60h
    Huwasi (Hatti): +1 production, may be built in coastal and riverside cities, increase cost to 60h

    Incidentally, would you like me to edit my previous posts with these changes after getting your feedback? That would be easier than putting up new posts but maybe it'll get confusing?

    Hmm. Very interesting. I'm still not sold on the Smokehouse because, though smoking seafood is common, smoking meat is also very common, and a coastal-only Smokehouse strikes me as weird because it ignores that. Still, it would work well with the new Hospital... And, yes, I completely missed the Customs House change. I'll get back to you on both.

    I agree that the Tipi is too generic. (It's just a dwelling house, but then, so are the Longhouse and Ger.) We could make the Apothecary the Native American UB, to represent their medicine man traditions. The Amorites can have a Fountain UB instead.

    Yep. I've cut +25% culture from the Tavern.

    Ah, gotcha. But what about the iAIWeight tag? That seems designed to teach the AI the importance of custom-coded buildings. You might need something similar for the Public Transport building, now that you've stripped it of its resource bonuses...

    Yeah, that one was hard to place. I don't think Castle is quite right, either. The problem is that so many of these buildings (Bamah, Huwasi, Kiva) are essentially religious sites, but Civ4 has a separate set of religious buildings. What if it replaced the Library? Ziggurats were centers of culture and scholarship, and cuneiform tablets were probably stored there.

    Hmm. I think I just reverted to 1.20 without thinking about it. I don't think we should have more than one building at 10%, but you're right: Stadiums can have 10% and Cinemas, 20%.

    I get the Jail/Courthouse distinction but I think Constabularies make for a much better maintenance reduction building. I don't see war weariness reduction being plentiful in the Classical Era as too big an issue, since it is pretty expensive in production terms, and Clan Warfare is a natural civic choice for warmongers anyway.

    I'm really out of my depth when it comes to Mesopotamian history but, let's see: what about Dur-Sharrukin (The Fortress of Sargon) as a Seasonal Palace UW? (I know we don't need more Seasonal Palace UWs, but so it goes.) For art, I like "Alamut" from this set: http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=16609.

    What's not to like about the Pavilion? It's an example of authentic Chinese architecture, originally a watchtower and later a sanctuary. The other iconic Chinese structure is the Pagoda, but that's the Taoist great temple. Anything else would be a variation on the theme: tower, watchtower, courtyard, tomb.
     

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