Feedback: Buildings and Wonders

I see what you are trying to do with Markets, but I think you have weakened them too way much.

I suggest one or more of the following:
1. reduce the cost to build
2. include a base commerce bonus such as 10% even without rescources.
3. add a +1 or +2 coins
4. give a free great person as per Cemetery
 
I see what you are trying to do with Forges, but I think you have weakened them too way much.

I suggest one or more of the following:
1. reduce the cost to build
2. include a base hammer bonus such as 20% even without resources.
(I would not increase the bonuses for copper or iron, since these resources are
already sufficiently important in the game.)
3. add a +1 or +2 hammer
4. give a free great person as per Cemetery
 
I like the addition of the Post Office.

Not a big deal, but I think it comes a little early in the game compared to historical.

Also since it is similar to the revised Tavern it would be a little better if you moved these two buildings a little apart in the tech tree.
Tavern can afford to be a little earlier, while Post Office can afford to be a little later.
By the same logic, you do not Post Office to be too close in time to Custom House.

Not a big deal, but something to think about revising when you get a chance.
 
I just thought a great wonder would be the artificial islands in Dubai. It is a completely different structure. I think we need more wonders in the late modern era. I think the bonus should be commerce based like reduce maintenance of corporation.
 
The artificial islands sound interesting... but is there art out there for it?
Also, since the late game is so full of units and other art, can the game handle even more art?
I don't know... I'll look for some Dubai-themed wonders.
 
What I need most at this stage are suggestions for stats/effects for wonders. It's much easier to assign an interesting effect to appropriate art than the other way around. Please be as detailed as possible.

I agree that the Forge is too weak, less sure about the Market. 25% commerce is pretty strong.
 
Well, Xyth, what kinds of art are out there? I'd love to make suggestions, but I'm kind of shooting blind here.

Also, if you're having second thoughts about various "I changed it but I'm not so sure it works this way" modifications, do you plan to wait for 0.9.6 to change them back? Or could we get a 0.9.5 Mk II in which you don't try to rebalance any major game features or introduce new art or do other time-consuming things, and just... remove some of the less popular features of the new edition?
 
In BTS, market has 25% commerce, and happiness for resources.

In HR latest version it has up to 25% commerce provided you have access to all 5 of the resources. There is no happiness for resources.

In HR latest version:
The Grocer still has 25% commerce, no requirement of resources.
The Library still has 25% science, no requirement of resources.

In the latest version of HR, the hammer cost for market is way, way to much, or its power is way too low.

What I need most at this stage are suggestions for stats/effects for wonders. It's much easier to assign an interesting effect to appropriate art than the other way around. Please be as detailed as possible.

I agree that the Forge is too weak, less sure about the Market. 25% commerce is pretty strong.
 
Well, Xyth, what kinds of art are out there? I'd love to make suggestions, but I'm kind of shooting blind here.

The wonders I definitely intend to add are the Colosseum, Al Khazneh (Treasury of Petra), Jetavanaramaya (giant stupa in Sri Lanka), Porcelain Tower, Grand Arsenal (of Venice), Hubble Space Telescope, Large Hadron Collider, Human Genome Project.

I've got the Colosseum in game and working (it allows its city to build the UUs of civilizations in its trade network), the rest I don't have finalized effects for so suggestions are welcome.

I need to find new effects for the Hagia Sophia and Taj Mahal as well.

Feel free to suggest other wonders too, I'll see if art is available*. Most importantly though, I'm not going to add wonders just for the sake of it being worthy; they have to provide something interesting or useful mechanics-wise too.

Finally, bear in mind I don't wish to over-represent civilizations. Greece and America, for example, are already extremely well represented by wonders.

*One of the most prolific building/wonder model creators has recently returned to Civ4 so it's possible I might be able to make a few requests.

In BTS, market has 25% commerce, and happiness for resources.

In HR latest version it has up to 25% commerce provided you have access to all 5 of the resources. There is no happiness for resources.

In HR latest version:
The Grocer still has 25% commerce, no requirement of resources.
The Library still has 25% science, no requirement of resources.

In the latest version of HR, the hammer cost for market is way, way to much, or its power is way too low.

Actually in BTS the Market and Grocer give +25% wealth (aka gold). In HR the Market gives up to 25% commerce - which can be used for wealth, research, culture, or espionage. Significantly different.

Maybe I should change the commerce 'coin' symbol to something else. Commerce and wealth are all too often confused.
 
You are right about Markets.
My bad.

However, Forges are on the list of things to adjust for the next version.

The wonders I definitely intend to add are the Colosseum, Al Khazneh (Treasury of Petra), Jetavanaramaya (giant stupa in Sri Lanka), Porcelain Tower, Grand Arsenal (of Venice), Hubble Space Telescope, Large Hadron Collider, Human Genome Project.

I've got the Colosseum in game and working (it allows its city to build the UUs of civilizations in its trade network), the rest I don't have finalized effects for so suggestions are welcome.

I need to find new effects for the Hagia Sophia and Taj Mahal as well.

Feel free to suggest other wonders too, I'll see if art is available*. Most importantly though, I'm not going to add wonders just for the sake of it being worthy; they have to provide something interesting or useful mechanics-wise too.

Finally, bear in mind I don't wish to over-represent civilizations. Greece and America, for example, are already extremely well represented by wonders.

*One of the most prolific building/wonder model creators has recently returned to Civ4 so it's possible I might be able to make a few requests.



Actually in BTS the Market and Grocer give +25% wealth (aka gold). In HR the Market gives up to 25% commerce - which can be used for wealth, research, culture, or espionage. Significantly different.

Maybe I should change the commerce 'coin' symbol to something else. Commerce and wealth are all too often confused.
 
I'll think about some of those other wonders.

I need to find new effects for the Hagia Sophia and Taj Mahal as well.
Hagia Sophia should have a religious effect, if we can think of one that works- between Spiral Minaret, Apostolic Palace, and University of Sankore, most of the obvious options are taken.

Maybe I should change the commerce 'coin' symbol to something else. Commerce and wealth are all too often confused.
I never had that problem...
 
Hagia Sophia should have a religious effect, if we can think of one that works- between Spiral Minaret, Apostolic Palace, and University of Sankore, most of the obvious options are taken.

The Hagia Sophia is actually one I reckon we can get away with having a non-religion related effect. I'm thinking in terms of it's 'east meets west' architectural style as well as all the different purposes, religious and secular, that it's been used for by different cultures over the centuries.

I was thinking about it allowing the construction of other civilizations' UBs in its city, much like how the Colosseum is going to work for UUs. There are some technical challenges to that though, so I'm not sure if its possible yet.
 
Since there has been some discussion of this, I counted up the number of buildings in each column of the tech tree, including the first incomplete column:

2,4,1,5,3,5,2,2,3,3,2,1,3,2,2,4,3,1,0,0.

Someone might want to check my work.

There are other things to build such as units and wonders which are not included above.
Not all buildings are created equal.
(For example, each of three types of power plants are included separately above.)
The barracks is available with no tech, and is not included above.
I have not included the armory or the university which are built with great people.

However, the above numbers may help point out where you may want to shift some buildings in the tech tree, as well as where a new useful building might be worthwhile.
 
Bumping this thread as I'd really like some suggestions for wonder effects, particularly for these:

• Hagia Sophia
• Taj Mahal
• Al Khazneh (Treasury of Petra)
• Jetavanaramaya (giant stupa in Sri Lanka)
• Porcelain Tower
• Grand Arsenal (of Venice)
• Hubble Space Telescope
• Large Hadron Collider
• Human Genome Project​
 
Grand Arsenal

The Grand Arsenal was an early mass-production facility that gave the Venetian navy a huge boost; it should probably provide a naval bonus and Great Engineer points. Faster ship construction in all cities, or possibly free XP boost to all ships (since it's hard to give XP to ships in the early game without plentiful Drydocks, this is helpful).

Something like:
+3 XP to naval units in all cities
+2 Great People Points (engineer)
+4 culture

The Human Genome Project

This is obviously a health-and-happiness one, since that's the whole point of doing genetic screening and so on. A flat health bonus across all cities may be rather dull, but at least it makes more sense.

+2 health in all cities
+2 Great People points (scientist)
+6 culture

Taj Mahal

If you don't keep the "free Golden Age" aspect (why? I liked that concept), your best bet is cultural- the Taj Mahal is renowned more for the utter beauty of its architecture than for anything else about it; it's a cultural landmark and a symbol of the heights of Indian civilization during the Mughal period.

+25% culture in all cities
(other effects?)
+10 culture
+2 great people points (artist)

Hubble Space Telescope

The Hubble is a very abstract, 'blue-sky' research item. The only obvious, direct effect it would have on anything that matters in gameplay would be, say, making your spaceship more likely to get to Alpha Centauri faster. Not really very relevant or exciting.

What about letting it give you a free tech?

???

Large Hadron Collider

The LHC, likewise- very much pure research oriented. My suggestion here would be to increase the effectiveness of laboratories in your civilization- say, an additional +25% science for laboratories.

Is that practical?
 
General note:

I think one major priority for 0.9.6 is the need to get more science into the game, or reduce the cost of the tech tree, so that one can feasibly research the entire tree in a reasonable number of turns. The increased number of techs throws that aspect of the game out of balance, and while there's somewhat more commerce (and therefore science) in History Rewritten than there is in vanilla, there isn't that much more.

If we're not just going to cut all the tech costs by 25 to 30%, we need buildings that contribute more to science, and do so early enough in the game for their cumulative effect to matter. This might very well be a good thing to do with some of the wonders Xyth is thinking about adding. It's also a good thing to do with new buildings, with optional features for existing buildings, and so on.
 
I have found no problem with the current rate.
If anything the technology in the game gets ahead of historical.

Depends on many factors, including whether or not tech trading is allowed.
My remarks are based on no tech brokering.

As I have mentioned, perhaps there should be a player option for tech speed:
faster, ordinary, slower.


General note:

I think one major priority for 0.9.6 is the need to get more science into the game, or reduce the cost of the tech tree, so that one can feasibly research the entire tree in a reasonable number of turns. The increased number of techs throws that aspect of the game out of balance, and while there's somewhat more commerce (and therefore science) in History Rewritten than there is in vanilla, there isn't that much more.

If we're not just going to cut all the tech costs by 25 to 30%, we need buildings that contribute more to science, and do so early enough in the game for their cumulative effect to matter. This might very well be a good thing to do with some of the wonders Xyth is thinking about adding. It's also a good thing to do with new buildings, with optional features for existing buildings, and so on.
 
Taj Mahal

If you don't keep the "free Golden Age" aspect (why? I liked that concept)

Because now each civs' Unique Wonder does that instead. I suppose it doesn't hurt to have a World Wonder that can do that as well but it does feel a bit superfluous.

Large Hadron Collider

The LHC, likewise- very much pure research oriented. My suggestion here would be to increase the effectiveness of laboratories in your civilization- say, an additional +25% science for laboratories.

Is that practical?

The LHC comes quite late in the game (Particle Physics is a Future Era tech) so extra research at this point would be a bit redundant. The idea I had for this wonder is that it gives the civ a bonus for every future era tech discovered (in addition to the +1 happiness/health from Future Tech itself). I'm just not sure what that bonus could be as a lot of things became less useful at that point of the game.

I think one major priority for 0.9.6 is the need to get more science into the game, or reduce the cost of the tech tree, so that one can feasibly research the entire tree in a reasonable number of turns. The increased number of techs throws that aspect of the game out of balance, and while there's somewhat more commerce (and therefore science) in History Rewritten than there is in vanilla, there isn't that much more.

I have found no problem with the current rate.
If anything the technology in the game gets ahead of historical.

My suspicions are that Normal games on smaller maps are much harder than Marathon games on larger maps. For both research and production. I'm not certain which is the bigger factor though (mapsize or gamespeed).

As I have mentioned, perhaps there should be a player option for tech speed:
faster, ordinary, slower.

Yep, this is definitely something I'm considering as part of the overall solution.
 
I think the Taj Mahal is fine as is.
I do not find it superfluous.

I would be glad if there were some thought given to ways to improve the very end of the tech tree for those of us who do not play with the space race. (I got sick of it as soon as other victory options became available in ?Civ II?) Usefully extending the tech tree to current day and 40 years beyond would take a lot of work, but I think it would be worthwhile. (I assume there are other mods that might help with this.) I hope this can get on the list of things to do eventually.
In this context, it might be easier to find a useful role for late wonders such as LHC.

Agree that tech speed depends on map size, playing speed, map type, difficulty level, etc. Also, different players have different preferences. That is why a science speed choice is probably the only way to satisfy the majority of players.
That way if they found that science was slower or faster than they prefer, next game they play they could adjust the setting.
While I suspect 3 choices should be enough, 5 might be slightly better.
I assume what one could do is multiply all tech costs by factor, which would be 1 for the default setting.


Because now each civs' Unique Wonder does that instead. I suppose it doesn't hurt to have a World Wonder that can do that as well but it does feel a bit superfluous.



The LHC comes quite late in the game (Particle Physics is a Future Era tech) so extra research at this point would be a bit redundant. The idea I had for this wonder is that it gives the civ a bonus for every future era tech discovered (in addition to the +1 happiness/health from Future Tech itself). I'm just not sure what that bonus could be as a lot of things became less useful at that point of the game.





My suspicions are that Normal games on smaller maps are much harder than Marathon games on larger maps. For both research and production. I'm not certain which is the bigger factor though (mapsize or gamespeed).



Yep, this is definitely something I'm considering as part of the overall solution.
 
Hmmm.

I tend to play Normal-speed games on relatively large, sprawling maps full of continents and islands. I'm also accustomed to fairly rapid expansion- I build about eight or ten cities by the late classical period, trying to spread out and block off competitors from as many resources and good sites as I can.

The cost of doing so, of course, is an artificially depressed science rate, and techs which are inherently expensive because of the larger map and civilization size (I think; is that how they work?).

I usually don't play Marathon games because I simply don't play enough turns in one sitting to even hope to finish such a game before I get bored and wander away from Civ for the interminable future. Also because I don't feel all that much benefit from it on account of the extreme expense of actually getting anything built- you wind up with dozens of turns in which nothing happens. I can see how Marathon games do help, though, because of the power of compound interest- the cumulative effect of early-game boosts to productivity adding up over more turns.

...

One thing I think IS missing from research in History Rewritten is the monastery. In vanilla Civ IV, you get the technology to build them very early in the game, there's a strong incentive to build them for culture, for missionaries, and for science. If you're diligent about spreading religions through your empire*, that adds up to a 10% or 20% bonus to science production in most of your cities, possibly even more in the large central ones if you go out of your way to spread minority religions to them.

In History Rewritten, that bonus isn't available until some time in the Medieval period, so the only science boost you get is the one from libraries- in effect, something like 15% of the science production I usually have in the Classical and Medieval periods isn't there in HR.

I understand that you don't want civilizations spamming missionaries until a bit later in the game, but maybe we can come up with an early-game improvement that provides a limited science bonus to offset the lack of the monasteries? Perhaps something that offers a 10% or 20% increase, while removing the bonus from monasteries or decreasing it from 10% to 5%...

*(which is my preferred playstyle, Organized Religion and religious diversity throughout the state, on something I imagine working sort of like the Roman model of adopting mystery cults and pantheons found throughout their territory side by side).
 
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