Feedback: Buildings and Wonders

[Xyth]

Holy Office

I've held off making changes to the Holy Office for a while as I was considering removing it completely. I've looked into that now and have determined that removing it would require significant reworking of Inquisition AI, which just isn't worth it.

So far I've fixed the bug that allowed it to be captured and reduced the health penalty to just 1 unhealthiness. As Skidizzle suggests, it might be worthwhile to change that to 1 unhappiness in every city, or possibly both. Shifting the penalty to the actions of the Inquisitor is an interesting idea and I agree that Inquisition related mechanics should be nullified under Altruism. Such changes, if possible, will require a fair bit of custom coding though and that's not something I want to tackle until after 0.9.5.

Are there any other (possibly temporary) changes that I should make to the Holy Office in the meantime?


Sewer

Despite the name, it's clear from the design of BTS that espionage is not just about spying on other civs. It's meant also to represent political intrigue, policing, criminal networks and such. Having strong intelligence networks, both legal and illegal, within your own civ helps foster better domestic and international intelligence gathering. The government might not have their agents in an enemy city but a local cartel or smugglers ring might - and a government does well to make such contacts. This is why I think it's entirely appropriate for a building like the Sewers to improve espionage (I quite like Azoth's spy slot idea, more suitable than a flat bonus).


News Press

The 'increase war weariness of enemy civs' mechanic is proving a bit controversial. Having no pedia entries yet doesn't help, let me explain what I'm trying to achieve with this. Firstly, forget newspapers, they're just the medium and are relatively unimportant to the discussion. What is important here are journalists - for the first time in history, an organized source of information and investigation that is independent of government. The war weariness mechanic is not meant to represent propaganda (though newspapers and journalists were certainly involved in that as well), instead it represents journalists getting the news to the people whether their government like it or not. Even (especially?) when their countries are at war journalists still work together or at least trade information. The war weariness comes because the populace is getting the truth rather than the usual propaganda. And the truth is that war is horrible no matter the reason for it.

It's not a perfect representation but I think it works well. It makes for an interesting game mechanic and I think it's important that the rise of journalism is represented in HR. It's an extremely important facet of recent history.



I'm still thinking through the third draft, Azoth, but I'll post some initial comments soon.

 

[Xyth]

Allowing unique buildings to be captured is probably going to have to be abandoned. Buildings that require other buildings (Supermarket, Eiffel Tower, etc) won't detect captured UBs, meaning they can never be built in that city. Happiness and health bonuses from civics also won't get applied to captured UBs. Sadly these problems can't be fixed without the SDK.


Some initial comments on the third draft:

five resource dependent commerce multipliers from a single building, the Market

I agree that all the commerce bonuses being from the same building is not ideal but I don't think reverting them to happiness is the best solution. I'd like to keep the commerce bonuses but spread them out over several buildings like the production ones are. I have a few ideas, I'll think it over.

the major-minor happiness model, which reduces building choice

The idea is that the 'minor' buildings should be interesting in their own right, the attached resource is just a small aspect of their appeal. I realize that certain buildings do not live up to this yet.

In general, I have restored the happiness from the five commerce multiplier resources and removed five happiness elsewhere.

The problem here is that all of those resources would provide happiness in the Ancient and Classical eras. The Stadium is fine but the Distillery and Cinema are far too late in the game. Where are the other 2 happiness removed from?

Food
Granary: +25% food stored +1 health Corn/Rice/Wheat, +1 health with Agrarianism, +1 happiness with Redistribution
Smokehouse: +25% food stored, +1 health Deer/Bison
Lighthouse: +1 food on water tiles, coastal cities only
Supermarket: +2 food, +1 health Cattle/Pig/Sheep, -1 health Tobacco, requires Smokehouse (does not require Grocer)

I don't wish to remove Potatoes from the Granary, they (or similar tubers) are one of the most important food crops in the world, the cornerstone of the diet of South America and the Pacific in earlier times.

With the way that resources are distributed there really isn't a case where you get a civ that has lots of livestock but no crops, or lots of crops but no livestock. Rather it is far more common to have civs that have lots of both and then some civs that have few of either. Thus I don't think that the Smokehouse needs to be on par with the Granary; all that happens is that civs that have both livestock and crops build both and the gap widens further. The Granary should still be the 'go-to' growth building but the Smokehouse should be an alternative for desert civs and the likes (this is why I think it's essential that Salt is associated with the Smokehouse). This way, civs on fertile land will build the Granary and probably skip the Smokehouse initially, desert civs will do the opposite. I'm intending to make the Smokehouse much cheaper to build than the Granary (probably 40 vs 60 hammers).

I also don't want to start attaching some livestock to the Smokehouse and not others. It doesn't make sense, why should an ancient civ get benefit from preserving Bison meat but not beef? Venison but not seal meat? The Supermarket works better because by that time some animals proved to be easier to farm than others. For the Smokehouse it's better to focus on the preservative I reckon.

Having said that, I'm not completely happy with the Smokehouse and feel it could use something extra. I'll probably give it back the +1 happiness with Spice it used to have (and remove Spice from the Grocer), this would make it more distinct when compared to the Granary and fit in very well historically. Long before the spice trade in the Age of Sail, chilli and such were used in South Asia and Central America as preservatives (or at least to disguise the flavour of meat that was going bad). Saffron was considered more valuable than gold in the Bronze Age Aegean.

I agree with lowering the Agrarianism health bonus to 1, I've already put that change into 0.9.5 but forgot to note it in the draft.

Any particular reason for removing the Grocer requirement from the Supermarket?

Espionage
Courthouse: +2 espionage, -50% maintenance costs, 1 spy slot, +1 happy for Judicial leaders
Jail: +4 espionage, -25% war wariness, +1 happy for Judicial leaders (+25% espionage and 2 spy slots removed)
Castle: +50% city defense, -25% damage from bombardment, +1 culture +25% espionage, +1 trade route, +1 happy for Protective leaders, requires Walls
Sewer: +2 health, +1 population, 1 spy slot
Intelligence Agency: +50% espionage, 2 spy slots (+8 espionage removed)
Security Bureau: +8 espionage, +50% defense against espionage, thwarts rival spies (2 spy slots removed)

I like these changes and agree with the reasoning behind them.

 

[Howard Mahler]

I will try one last time.

Your argument would justify the Sewers giving a minus to espionage or making it easier for enemies to conduct espionage missions against you.

Your current mechanic:
Paris builds Sewers.
It is thus easier for the French to steal a technology from the English and harder for the English to steal a technology from the French.
It is thus easier for the French to sabotage a building in London and harder for the English to sabotage a building in Paris.

Your argument for Newspress would justify increasing your own war weariness rather than the enemy's.

Your current mechanic:
Paris builds a Newspress.
If England is at war with France, then England's warweariness is increased.
France's warweariness is unaffected by the increase in French journalists giving "the populace the truth rather than the usual propaganda."

Also the stacking of the effect of Newspress is a very poor game mechanism.

Sewer

Despite the name, it's clear from the design of BTS that espionage is not just about spying on other civs. It's meant also to represent political intrigue, policing, criminal networks and such. Having strong intelligence networks, both legal and illegal, within your own civ helps foster better domestic and international intelligence gathering. The government might not have their agents in an enemy city but a local cartel or smugglers ring might - and a government does well to make such contacts. This is why I think it's entirely appropriate for a building like the Sewers to improve espionage (I quite like Azoth's spy slot idea, more suitable than a flat bonus).


News Press

The 'increase war weariness of enemy civs' mechanic is proving a bit controversial. Having no pedia entries yet doesn't help, let me explain what I'm trying to achieve with this. Firstly, forget newspapers, they're just the medium and are relatively unimportant to the discussion. What is important here are journalists - for the first time in history, an organized source of information and investigation that is independent of government. The war weariness mechanic is not meant to represent propaganda (though newspapers and journalists were certainly involved in that as well), instead it represents journalists getting the news to the people whether their government like it or not. Even (especially?) when their countries are at war journalists still work together or at least trade information. The war weariness comes because the populace is getting the truth rather than the usual propaganda. And the truth is that war is horrible no matter the reason for it.

It's not a perfect representation but I think it works well. It makes for an interesting game mechanic and I think it's important that the rise of journalism is represented in HR. It's an extremely important facet of recent history.



I'm still thinking through the third draft, Azoth, but I'll post some initial comments soon.

 

[Xyth]

I will try one last time.

Your argument would justify the Sewers giving a minus to espionage or making it easier for enemies to conduct espionage missions against you.

Your current mechanic:
Paris builds Sewers.
It is thus easier for the French to steal a technology from the English and harder for the English to steal a technology from the French.
It is thus easier for the French to sabotage a building in London and harder for the English to sabotage a building in Paris.

Yes, thats exactly what I intend. I'm associating Sewers with the criminal underworld, a very common association in history. With a spy specialist slot (which will replace the +4 espionage or +25% espionage) you can choose to make contact with these criminal networks (which are usually active or connected in ways not limited by cultural/political borders), perhaps turn a blind eye to some of their activities in exchange for information and assistance. So if you want a spy to steal technology or sabotage a foreign building then these criminal networks can let you know which officials are bribable, where the secret passages are, let your spy use their safehouses, etc. Having a spy specialist in place also helps protect you against foreign governments doing the same to you - you're protecting the network's interests and thus they're protecting yours unless they get a better offer elsewhere.

If a foreign civ uses the spy specialist from the Sewer and you do no not then you are effectively at an espionage disadvantage - your rivals are using the criminal networks in your cities against you. I acknowledge that all this wasn't entirely clear/represented by the +4 espionage or +25% espionage but I think Azoth's spy slot suggestion fixes it perfectly.

Your argument for Newspress would justify increasing your own war weariness rather than the enemy's.

I think there is justification for the News Press increasing your own war weariness as well as the enemy's. I've already explained why I think it is entirely appropriate for it to affect enemy cities; journalists, like criminal networks, are not always restricted by political/cultural borders.

Your current mechanic:
Paris builds a Newspress.
If England is at war with France, then England's warweariness is increased.
France's warweariness is unaffected by the increase in French journalists giving "the populace the truth rather than the usual propaganda."

Now that I've added the +1 free specialist to the News Press there is plausibly a case for adding a war weariness penalty to it as well (i.e. you increase the overall war weariness of your enemies but the city its built in also becomes a bit more susceptible). This means you could only afford to build News Presses in reasonably well balanced cities. I haven't considered the specifics yet.

Also the stacking of the effect of Newspress is a very poor game mechanism.

Well I completely disagree. Ignoring Wonders and Civics, it will be possible to get -75% war weariness in your cities (Jail, Distillery, Broadcast Tower). In BTS there is just -25% (the Jail). The News Press is the counter to this and rather than being yet another passive 'improve your city % bonus' it's something new and interesting: a stacking mechanic that affects your enemy instead of you.

Scaling with mapsize is potentially a concern but not an insurmountable one. We can change the %, for a start. War weariness itself already scales with mapsize and I can adjust these values along with several other factors if need be. In the end though, managing happiness in the late game becomes important again, as it should be. The culture and/or espionage sliders might actually see some use. It's something to keep an eye on and tweak as needed.

News Press: +1 culture, 1 free specialist, enemies suffer +10% war wariness, +5% hammers with Iron (+1 happiness per 10% espionage removed)
Cinema: +3 culture, -25% War Wariness, +1 happy per 10% espionage, +1 happy Hit Movies (base +1 happy removed)
Broadcast Tower: +50% culture, 2 artist slots, +1 happy per 10% culture, +1 happy Hit Singles

Of the Cinema and the Broadcast Tower I feel that the latter best suits the -25% war weariness. Radio and TV broadcasts can be state-run or funded and reach more citizens; thus a more likely vehicle for propaganda and censorship than film. I see the point about the Eiffel Tower but I don't think it's too powerful with the News Press around.

Attaching Iron to the News Press doesn't make any sense, nor does the happiness per espionage on the Cinema.

 

[Howard Mahler]

Set aside the important issue of why Newspress affects the warweariness of other countries and not your own. I wish to talk about the stacking.

In Civ usually buildings (directly) affect only a single city.
Wonders are the exception that can affect many or all cities or can affect all other Civs (statue of Zeus).

The Newspress is a single building that affects all enemy civs.
It increases the warweariness in every city of every civilization at war with you.
In addition, two of them has double the effect of one of them.
Ten of them has ten times the effect of one of them.

There is no wonder you can build multiple copies of.
No other building has its effects add with multiple copies of itself.

This is an inherently bad game mechanic.
Large civilizations already have a big enough advantage.

In my current game as Sargon, I have built somewhere between 15 and 20 Newspresses without too much trouble. When I declare war on the Hittites they will have 150% to 200% extra warweariness. (Let us ignore the issue of whether this makes any sense.) If I am war with several other civs each of them also gets the same raised warweariness.

Set aside the fact that the Hittites can not build broadcast towers and may not be able to build distilleries yet.
As far as defenses go, how does this work?
If the Hittites have -50% warweariness in a city, and I have +200% from Newspesses, what is the result? Do they get 150% or 250% of normal war weariness?
Do the affects multiply or do they add?

With National Monument wonder and buildings, what if instead the Hittites had -100% in a city. Do they net at 0 or 200% of ordinary warweariness?

In any case there is a perfect defense, they can adopt the Clan Warfare civic with no warweariness at all.
(Assuming the AI is smart enough to do this.)

However, the point is that the Hittites should not be forced to defend against such an unbalanced (and illogical) affect in the first place.

Yes, thats exactly what I intend. I'm associating Sewers with the criminal underworld, a very common association in history. With a spy specialist slot (which will replace the +4 espionage or +25% espionage) you can choose to make contact with these criminal networks (which are usually active or connected in ways not limited by cultural/political borders), perhaps turn a blind eye to some of their activities in exchange for information and assistance. So if you want a spy to steal technology or sabotage a foreign building then these criminal networks can let you know which officials are bribable, where the secret passages are, let your spy use their safehouses, etc. Having a spy specialist in place also helps protect you against foreign governments doing the same to you - you're protecting the network's interests and thus they're protecting yours unless they get a better offer elsewhere.

If a foreign civ uses the spy specialist from the Sewer and you do no not then you are effectively at an espionage disadvantage - your rivals are using the criminal networks in your cities against you. I acknowledge that all this wasn't entirely clear/represented by the +4 espionage or +25% espionage but I think Azoth's spy slot suggestion fixes it perfectly.



I think there is justification for the News Press increasing your own war weariness as well as the enemy's. I've already explained why I think it is entirely appropriate for it to affect enemy cities; journalists, like criminal networks, are not always restricted by political/cultural borders.



Now that I've added the +1 free specialist to the News Press there is plausibly a case for adding a war weariness penalty to it as well (i.e. you increase the overall war weariness of your enemies but the city its built in also becomes a bit more susceptible). This means you could only afford to build News Presses in reasonably well balanced cities. I haven't considered the specifics yet.



Well I completely disagree. Ignoring Wonders and Civics, it will be possible to get -75% war weariness in your cities (Jail, Distillery, Broadcast Tower). In BTS there is just -25% (the Jail). The News Press is the counter to this and rather than being yet another passive 'improve your city % bonus' it's something new and interesting: a stacking mechanic that affects your enemy instead of you.

Scaling with mapsize is potentially a concern but not an insurmountable one. We can change the %, for a start. War weariness itself already scales with mapsize and I can adjust these values along with several other factors if need be. In the end though, managing happiness in the late game becomes important again, as it should be. The culture and/or espionage sliders might actually see some use. It's something to keep an eye on and tweak as needed.



Of the Cinema and the Broadcast Tower I feel that the latter best suits the -25% war weariness. Radio and TV broadcasts can be state-run or funded and reach more citizens; thus a more likely vehicle for propaganda and censorship than film. I see the point about the Eiffel Tower but I don't think it's too powerful with the News Press around.

Attaching Iron to the News Press doesn't make any sense, nor does the happiness per espionage on the Cinema.

 

[Xyth]

There is no wonder you can build multiple copies of.
No other building has its effects add with multiple copies of itself.

This isn't a reason to not try something different. The Civic Square works in a similar manner.

This is an inherently bad game mechanic.
Large civilizations already have a big enough advantage.

It's not inherently bad, it just needs to scale reasonably. War weariness scales with mapsize so this helps keep it all in check. See the link below for details.

In my current game as Sargon, I have built somewhere between 15 and 20 Newspresses without too much trouble. When I declare war on the Hittites they will have 150% to 200% extra warweariness. (Let us ignore the issue of whether this makes any sense.) If I am war with several other civs each of them also gets the same raised warweariness.

Only if they invade your territory. War weariness accumulates only from combat and capturing cities, and only if these take place on tiles where the you are not culturally dominant. (And from nukes of course). The Hittites won't be affected as they're defending their homeland from you.

Note that this 'extra' war weariness isn't directly increasing the severity of unhappiness you get, rather these modifiers increase or decrease the rate of accumulation. You get the same amount of unhappiness quicker. War weariness also decays if no combat takes place, even between civs at war.

As far as defenses go, how does this work?
If the Hittites have -50% warweariness in a city, and I have +200% from Newspesses, what is the result? Do they get 150% or 250% of normal war weariness?
Do the affects multiply or do they add?

With National Monument wonder and buildings, what if instead the Hittites had -100% in a city. Do they net at 0 or 200% of ordinary warweariness?

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/war_weariness.php

 

[davidtylr]

I was thinking when monuments become obsolete they should increase in culture.

 

[Azoth]

Some responses:

Allowing unique buildings to be captured is probably going to have to be abandoned. Buildings that require other buildings (Supermarket, Eiffel Tower, etc) won't detect captured UBs, meaning they can never be built in that city. Happiness and health bonuses from civics also won't get applied to captured UBs. Sadly these problems can't be fixed without the SDK.

In that case, I suggest:

Hagia Sophia
all non-cultural buildings retained upon city capture

Cultural buildings would be destroyed as usual.
Unique buildings would be converted to standard.
Every other building would be retained:
Every city with a Granary, Lighthouse, Forge, etc. would retain them upon capture by the player who owned the Hagia Sophia.

I agree that all the commerce bonuses being from the same building is not ideal but I don't think reverting them to happiness is the best solution. I'd like to keep the commerce bonuses but spread them out over several buildings like the production ones are. I have a few ideas, I'll think it over.

Production bonuses are unproblematic: they typically apply to strategic resources, to which every player should have access, and they can be balanced by a corresponding decrease in the production bonus from Power. Commerce bonuses are a different matter: they boost research, gold, culture, and espionage output, making them very strong. However, their strength depends on the availability of specific luxury resources, leaving players vulnerable to the local geography. I can see a small role for commerce bonuses later in the game, when players should be able to trade for all the resources they need. Ideally, they would be attached to National Wonders (such as National Corporate Headquarters!) so that players might further specialize their cities.

The idea is that the 'minor' buildings should be interesting in their own right, the attached resource is just a small aspect of their appeal. I realize that certain buildings do not live up to this yet.

The major-minor model looks good on paper. However, it has a number of drawbacks:

• The major buildings alone offer 90% of the health and happiness benefits for only 50% of the hammer cost. A Tannery + Granary + Weaver + Grocer will meet all your needs until the Industrial Era!
• A minor building attached to a single resource, such as the Distillery with Sugar, becomes largely irrelevant if you lack that particular resource.
• The major-minor model simplifies decision making. If a Granary is always superior to a Smokehouse, then you will always build it first.

For these reasons, I prefer resource bonuses to be more widely distributed. Compared to the major-minor model, this leads to higher hammer costs for an equivalent level of health and happiness, since more buildings are required. It also makes it more likely that a given player will have at least one of the resources associated with a particular building. Thus, ideal build orders will change by game; Smokehouse first might sometimes be a viable option.

The Stadium is fine but the Distillery and Cinema are far too late in the game. Where are the other 2 happiness removed from?

You're right. I should have been more clear on this point.

Compared to your earlier proposal:

• I have restored 5 happiness from resources. Amber, Gems, Gold, Jade, and Silver provide happy when paired with the Kiln, Market, and Forge.
• I have removed 3 happiness from buildings: the Stadium, Distillery, and Cinema.
• I have removed 2 happiness from resources. Bison and Tea provide health when paired with the Smokehouse and Bath.

Alas, I did not consider the 3 happiness I added from resources. Cocoa, Potatoes, and Spices provide happy when paired with the Tavern, Distillery, and Customs House.
I suggest you restore the Cocoa and Potatoes health bonus and convert Spices to a base health resource, keeping the happiness bonus at Custom Houses.

In summary:

Kiln: -1 health, +2 beakers, +1 happy Amber/Jade (Net +2 happy)
Tannery: -1 health, +2 hammers, +1 happy Fur/Seal (Net -1 happy)
Granary: +25% food stored +1 health Corn/Rice/Wheat, +1 health with Agrarianism, +1 happiness with Redistribution (Net -1 health)
Smokehouse: +25% food stored, +1 health Deer/Bison (Net +1 health)
Stable: -1 health, +1 trade route, +2XP Mounted Units, requires Horse or Elephant, obsolete at Aviation (Net -1 health)
Harbour: +50% trade route yield, +1 health Crab/Fish/Shellfish, coastal cities only (Net -1 health)

Aqueduct: 1 engineer slot, freshwater health bonus (Net -2 health)
Market: +25% gold, 2 merchant slots, +1 happy Dye/Gems, +2 happy with Professionalism (Net +2 happy)
Stadium: -1 health, +2 gold, +1 happy per 20% culture, +1 happy for Aggressive leaders (Net -1 health, -1 happy)
Tavern: +25% trade route yield, +1 health Cocoa, +1 happy Tobacco/Wine, +1 happy for Creative leaders (Net +1 health, -2 happy)
Forge: -1 health, +25% hammers, 1 engineer slot, +1 happy Gold/Silver, -1 health Copper/Iron (Net +2 happy)
Bath: +1 culture, +25% GPP, +1 health Tea, +1 happy Coffee, heals units 10%/turn (Net +1 happy)
Weaver: +25% culture, +1 happy Cotton/Flax/Silk (Net -1 happy)

Grocer: +25% gold, 2 merchant slots, +1 healthy Banana/Olive, -1 health Tobacco (Net -2 health)
Customs House: +50% foreign trade route yield, +1 happy Spices, +1 health Salt, requires Harbour (Net +1 health, +1 happy)
Drydock: -1 health, +50% Naval Unit production, +1 health Whale (Net +1 health)
Distillery: -1 health, -25% war wariness, +1 health Potato, +1 happy Sugar, +5% hammers with Peat (Net +1 health, -1 happy)
Cinema: +3 culture, -25% War Wariness, +1 happy per 10% espionage, +1 happy Hit Movies (Net -1 happy)

Spices becomes a base health resource. (+1 health, -1 happy)

Net happiness from buildings remains the same while net health drops by 2.
The +3 health from Bison, Spices, and Tea is offset by removing +2 health from the Aqueduct, +1 health from the Bath, and adding a further -1 health each to the Stadium and Stable.
Health and happiness are further reduced by stealth since the Customs House can only be built in coastal cities.
Of particular note are:

• the Tavern, Bath, Customs House, and Distillery as hybrid health and happiness buildings; and
• the Distillery and Drydock, as buildings whose health penalty is neatly offset by a resource bonus borrowed from a major building, the Granary and Harbour.

The problem here is that all of those resources would provide happiness in the Ancient and Classical eras.

Not so. I took care to balance happiness by era.

In the Ancient Era, +2 happy from the Kiln is offset by -1 happy each from the Tannery and Stadium.
In the Classical Era, +2 happy from the Market and +1 happy from the Bath is offset by -2 happy from the Tavern and -1 happy from the Weaver.
Later in the game, +1 happy from the Customs House is offset by -1 happy each on the Distillery and Cinema.

The Forge is the one building left unaccounted for. However, it offers +2 happy at the cost of -3 health.
This tradeoff is not always worthwhile, since health is significantly scarcer in the early game.
The Stable and Stadium decrease health, the Harbour, Aqueduct, and Grocer provide less health, and the Well moves to Hydraulics in the Renaissance Era.

I don't wish to remove Potatoes from the Granary, they (or similar tubers) are one of the most important food crops in the world, the cornerstone of the diet of South America and the Pacific in earlier times.

Allocating resource bonuses is inherently arbitrary.
Corn, Potatoes, Rice, and Wheat can be paired with either the Granary or Distillery but not both.
As such, I decided to keep the 'grain' resources at the Granary and move Potatoes to the Distillery.

I also don't want to start attaching some livestock to the Smokehouse and not others. It doesn't make sense, why should an ancient civ get benefit from preserving Bison meat but not beef? Venison but not seal meat? The Supermarket works better because by that time some animals proved to be easier to farm than others. For the Smokehouse it's better to focus on the preservative I reckon.

Some animals (Cattle, Pigs, Sheep) did in fact prove to be easier to farm than others (Bison, Deer).
Thus, the former are paired with the Supermarket and the latter with the Smokehouse.

Having said that, I'm not completely happy with the Smokehouse and feel it could use something extra. I'll probably give it back the +1 happiness with Spice it used to have (and remove Spice from the Grocer), this would make it more distinct when compared to the Granary and fit in very well historically. Long before the spice trade in the Age of Sail, chilli and such were used in South Asia and Central America as preservatives (or at least to disguise the flavour of meat that was going bad). Saffron was considered more valuable than gold in the Bronze Age Aegean.

Once again, it's a balancing act. The Customs House needs an extra bonus since its trade multiplier was reduced from +100% to +50%.
Salt and Spices make sense for both the Smokehouse and the Customs House. But Bison and Deer will only work with the Smokehouse. Thus, the decision is clear.

Any particular reason for removing the Grocer requirement from the Supermarket?

It brings the Smokehouse on par with the Granary.
The Granary is attached to more resources and civics but the Smokehouse is a useful prerequisite.
Beyond that, Grocers are generally the competitors not precursors to Supermarkets.


…And that's enough for one post.

 

[Simon_Jester]

How about having Wheat, Rice and Potatoes for the Granary, and Corn for the Distillery?

Historically, the only major agricultural civilizations which were heavily reliant on corn (maize) were the Mesoamerican ones. Wheat and rice were both a lot more widespread in ancient times. Potatoes are a borderline case, since they didn't really spread beyond Peru until modernish times, but if you argue that potatoes include related root crops like yams, potatoes win the "ubiquity" contest hands down.

So granaries stocked full of maize in the ancient world would be a rarer outcome than granaries stocked with wheat, rice, or root crops.

 

[davidtylr]

I was just thinking If we have a new building like rail yard or something like that. What it will do is if you build it in two cities with a railroad connecting to it you can move a unit between the two cities with it only costing one movement.

 

[Howard Mahler]

Your proposed effect would unbalance the game on larger maps.

Instead, perhaps rail yard in a city could be required to get the production bonuses from railroads for mines, lumberyards, etc. for the tiles worked by that city.

I was just thinking If we have a new building like rail yard or something like that. What it will do is if you build it in two cities with a railroad connecting to it you can move a unit between the two cities with it only costing one movement.

 

[davidtylr]

If its built in the late industrial early modern era it wont unbalance it that much. its like airlifting. You would need to build the improvement in both cities and have a connecting rail route between the two cities. What if we make airlifting cost gold to airlift a unit to another city.

 

[Howard Mahler]

Airlift is very powerful on larger maps, perhaps too powerful.

However, there are limits:
Requires airport in the departure city, which is a later technology than railroad.
There is a limit of one unit from a city and one unit arriving in a city, per turn.
(Also the unit has to start the turn in the city from which it is leaving.)

Airlift works across water, which is a very, very big advantage on some maps.

It may be a good idea to limit airlift further on larger maps.

It would not be a good idea to increase the power of railroads further.

If its built in the late industrial early modern era it wont unbalance it that much. its like airlifting. You would need to build the improvement in both cities and have a connecting rail route between the two cities. What if we make airlifting cost gold to airlift a unit to another city.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Remember, Davidtylr, we aren't just trying to think of "things it would be cool to put in the game." There are serious balance issues, and we have to think about why we want to incorporate new features- will they improve the game, or will they just mean that there are more things in the game than there were before?

 

[davidtylr]

Remember, Davidtylr, we aren't just trying to think of "things it would be cool to put in the game." There are serious balance issues, and we have to think about why we want to incorporate new features- will they improve the game, or will they just mean that there are more things in the game than there were before?

So will it be better if I leave the smart people to talk about the "serious balance issues".

 

[Simon_Jester]

You're welcome to participate, but I encourage you to take the next steps and think about how your changes would impact the game- what are the consequences of adding this feature? What does it change? Does it become more useful on some maps than on others, or for some civilizations than others? And so on.

 

[Keinpferd]

So will it be better if I leave the smart people to talk about the "serious balance issues".

davidtylr, please don't refrain yourself from further putting ideas forth, that might be declared unbalanced by the seriously smart people… I recall a post around this forum, that claimed the Great Wall wonder to be unbalanced, because barbarians were circling around it to go for the next player without that Great Wall protection. Ridiculous!

 

[Simon_Jester]

Oh, absolutely. I encourage people to put ideas forth- but once they've had an idea, it's best to also take the next step. Think "what would happen if we put this in the game? What would change? What would stay the same?"

 

[Howard Mahler]

There now appear to be two different wonders both named the Pyramids.
The second one is I believe Chichen Itza; in any case it gives +25% defense in all cities.

 

[Xyth]

There now appear to be two different wonders both named the Pyramids.
The second one is I believe Chichen Itza; in any case it gives +25% defense in all cities.

Bah, copy/paste error. It's now meant to be called 'Temple of Kukulkan".