Feedback: Civics

[myclan]

I find the AI still has a state religion when pluralism has been adopted, a bug there

 

[Xyth]

Corporation is pretty weird. It seems that when city is conquered, somehow corporation spread code may activate which complicates things

Hmm. I don't recall exactly but I think I may have noticed that and that's why I didn't put any corporation checks in onCityAcquired.

I find the AI still has a state religion when pluralism has been adopted, a bug there

In 1.19 or in the 1.20 beta? I thought I'd fixed that for the latter.

 

[myclan]

In 1.19 or in the 1.20 beta? I thought I'd fixed that for the latter.

I'm sorry, I have just finished my 1.19 game.

 

[platyping]

Hmm. I don't recall exactly but I think I may have noticed that and that's why I didn't put any corporation checks in onCityAcquired.

The question is when does it get triggered.
I didn't bother to do too much tests... (Fixing the foreign corp onCivicChange is taxing enough), so you may want to see when and why does it get triggered exactly.
Is it always or only when corp was inactive for previous player.
If so, is onCorporationRemove triggered as well.

You will have to do all these tests if you intend to keep the Civics for Corps.
And for HQs as well, if the foreign one is not scrapped, which include HQs razing.

 

[Xyth]

The question is when does it get triggered.
I didn't bother to do too much tests... (Fixing the foreign corp onCivicChange is taxing enough), so you may want to see when and why does it get triggered exactly.
Is it always or only when corp was inactive for previous player.
If so, is onCorporationRemove triggered as well.

You will have to do all these tests if you intend to keep the Civics for Corps.
And for HQs as well, if the foreign one is not scrapped, which include HQs razing.

Pretty sure I tested all this when I first wrote the corporation code (back in 1.18), but I haven't recorded my results anywhere I can find. I'll test them again. I didn't test or account for HQs being captured or razed though.

 

[myclan]

I think that a nation become industrialism by chopping down forest is a bit strange, also it is not quite useful, maybe +1food for workshop, or +25% for factory is better.

 

[Xyth]

I think that a nation become industrialism by chopping down forest is a bit strange, also it is not quite useful, maybe +1food for workshop, or +25% for factory is better.

Historically I think it makes sense. The rise of Industrialism was accompanied by massive deforestation worldwide, for fuel, construction, and to make space for agriculture. Industrial machinery made clearing forests easier and more efficient. I agree it feels a bit late in gameplay terms but it's not meant to be a major component of the civic, just a nice bonus.

However, in 1.20 I've applied this bonus to chopping Prime Timber as well. Unless you're planning to spread the Vinci corporation, Prime Timber's usefulness drops off markedly with the end of wooden ships. Under Industrialism, chopping a Prime Timber forest provides an instant 60 to a city. Not a game changer, but certainly useful.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

When a trade route provides a bonus other than commerce (Confederation, Aristrocracy), the commerce from the trade route is cut off. It's only really an issue as a diplomatic leader, as the information from the hover text does not account for the trade route commerce bonus.

 

[Nightstar]

For 1.21 I would suggest adding "Unlimited Doctors" to Altruism. I think it fits thematically and the civic's existing +50% will be weakened with the splitting of the GPP pools, so a buff is needed anyway. Plus it will also conflict with the unlimited priests and scientists from Orthodoxy and Rationalism, respectively.

 

[Xyth]

For 1.21 I would suggest adding "Unlimited Doctors" to Altruism. I think it fits thematically and the civic's existing +50% will be weakened with the splitting of the GPP pools, so a buff is needed anyway. Plus it will also conflict with the unlimited priests and scientists from Orthodoxy and Rationalism, respectively.

I've not looked at the civics yet (and don't wish to do anything extensive to them for 1.21), but Altruism does seem the obvious place for this.

 

[The_Athenian]

I have a suggestion, and I'm not sure if it has come up before.

In BTS, the civic "state property" had an impact on the effect of corporations. I think the civic, Redistribution, should have an impact in the modern era.
Where it neutralizes the effect, as well as stops the spread, of new corps in your civilization.
That way a player might revert to this early era civ in the late game. There are negative Impacts, but hey nationalizing your corporations has benefits and negatives. it's another strategic choice you get to make.


Forgive me if I reveal my own ignorance as I speak straight out of my butt in this post.

 

[Xyth]

In BTS, the civic "state property" had an impact on the effect of corporations. I think the civic, Redistribution, should have an impact in the modern era.
Where it neutralizes the effect, as well as stops the spread, of new corps in your civilization.
That way a player might revert to this early era civ in the late game. There are negative Impacts, but hey nationalizing your corporations has benefits and negatives. it's another strategic choice you get to make.

This was my original plan for Redistribution but I haven't pursued it for a couple of reasons. Firstly, with HR's new Corporation system it felt like too much of a penalty, too much of a deterrence to ever wanting to consider adopting the civic in the later game. Secondly, and also because of HR's new Corporation system, there are some tricky technical challenges to implementing it. Hasn't felt worth attempting yet.

 

[The_Athenian]

Would it be possible to make some adjustment to the Religion civics in 1.22?

I would love to hear some Feedback on this idea:

Religion Civics:
Paganism
Polytheism
Monotheism
Fundamentalism
Rationalism
Pluralism

Paganism was the worship of nature, Orthodoxy is a policy on religious practice, and altruism is a philosophy. I guess, it doesn't feel as much like a progression through history, as my religion civics change. I mean why would I need to give up an Orthodox dogma to be altruistic?

So I say we should drop Orthodoxy and Altruism.


Polytheism would replace Orthodoxy. This was the religious civic of great civilizations and empires. Polytheism allowed a conqueror to absorb new religions, bring new gods into the empire as it grew. So under Polytheism dissent due to differing religions is very low, in a way it was an early form of pluralism. With polytheism, the existence of my god does not mean that your god cannot exist. So there is much more stability, we see this in history, how the greeks and macedonians absorbed egyptian and persian gods, and the roman's absorbed greek gods. However supporting this pantheon of gods is expensive, so there should be no orthodox economic bonus.

Then instead of altruism, we have monotheism. Under monotheism the state endorses just one true god. This means dissent due to religion begins to rise, we begin to see tension between followers of the state's religion and followers of the old gods. However a leader benefits, by saying there is one true god, the state is taking control of religion; it can collect tithes from followers increasing revenue. So the 10% economic bonus, originally under orthodoxy should appear here. Cost of operating the state should lower too, because now serving the state is to serve god, so it's much easier to acquire cheap labor.

I think the rest, fundamentalism, rationalism, and pluralism are alright.

fundamentalism, (which I love seeing as a choice because it brings me back to Civ II) is an extreme form of monotheism, dissent is still high, but you lose economic bonuses. Because your people are so focused on following religious teachings, innovation suffers. However, there are of course the military benefits.

Rationalism Is really more a philosophy than a state policy toward religion. By adopting it, you really are adopting a policy of Reformation.

I'd love to hear what people think of this idea

 

[Jarrema]

flavor-wise, I love your ideas.
OTOH, I am not sure about changes it would bring to gameplay

 

[Xyth]

I don't feel Polytheism and Monotheism are appropriate for civics. The Religious civics are about how a state incorporates religion into it's society and government, and which aspects are valued or emphasised, not about the nature of the religions themselves. Also, while monotheism was a progression from polytheism for some religions, for others, notably Hinduism, this isn't true. Not to mention religions such as Taoism and Shinto which aren't theistic at all!

The most appropriate place for polytheism/monotheism/etc would be some sort of faith system like in Civ5, that gives religions different characteristics and benefits. It's something I want to add to HR; I have a few ideas but nothing concrete enough to share yet.

 

[Xyth]

I've been reworking the civics to fit in the new Society category and decided I'm unhappy with civics in the Law category. Some of its civics are about what law is based on (e.g. Tradition, Equal Rights), some on the style of enforcement (e.g. Authoritarianism), others on the structure of the legal system (e.g. Codification, Jurisdiction). This means that some of them aren't even exclusive options (e.g. Codification and Equal Rights).

I want to define the category better but have got a bit stuck in the process of doing so. I'd like to hear your ideas on how it might be rethought. Ignore bonuses/upkeep/dissent for now. Which 6 civics would you place in the Law category?

 

[gatinho65]

Do you have a preference already for the basis of choosing the legal civics? The existing ones do seem to describe several different things. It makes sense to use the category to define the structure for decision making, or the foundation of law (like Tradition), but maybe that will inevitably be pretty close to some of the government civics.

I guess some of the obvious choices would still include something like Tradition; something like Divine Law; something to reflect the concept of Man-made law as opposed to divine law; Codification (but can that concept be included in another category?); something that shows the importance of precedence maybe; Realpolitik (although this sort of 'realism' appears to be much older than that word, the early versions in India stressed pluralism as important to state function); something to reflect that all citizens count (like Equal Rights). In some cultures and times in history even non-humans had some legal standing and could be subject to laws, so I suppose that is an interesting civic that could be included and isn't exactly Equal Rights.

Authoritarian seems like an important civic to include in the game for a lot of reasons, and I kind of like it that now you can use it as a modifier to any of the government civics. If not in Legal, where to stick it?

In the sense of the game, maybe the category should include things that may not quite fit into the other categories but are still really important. Maybe that is why it is now a sort of catch-all?

As you have been reworking the civics to include the new Society category, what do you see as the most important 6 factors to include in the overall game? Maybe a purity of definition for the Legal category is a bit too confining and it sort of has to be fuzzy?

Ha, I don't suppose I've actually made anything easier with these thoughts lol.

 

[Xyth]

The definition will always be a little fuzzy, but it needs to much less fuzzy that it is currently. I feel Tradition and Authoritarianism are the two most appropriate civics to retain. They define the ideology or 'style' of your government and I think this works well. With this approach I guess we could say that the legal category describes what law and enforcement is founded on and what style of order it aspires to maintain.

So if we keep Tradition and Authoritarianism, what fits alongside them? I think some sort of 'Liberty' civic makes sense, and maybe some variation of Equal Rights/Equality/Egalitarianism that doesn't create incompatibilities with Slavery, Caste System, etc. Not quite sure where to go after that. Doesn't feel like there are enough options for the Classical or Medieval eras.

Divine Law; something to reflect the concept of Man-made law as opposed to divine law

I thought of this but I'm hesitant since we've already got the entire Tenet system + Theocracy to cover religious law.

Codification (but can that concept be included in another category?);

I feel that this concept is better represented in the tech tree (and probably already is with Constitution).

something that shows the importance of precedence maybe;

Again, probably better in the tech tree than the civic system. 'Jurisprudence' would make a great tech and it looks like the Modern/Future era revamp will require some shifts in the bottom part of the Renaissance/Industrial tree, so I reckon I can fit it in.

 

[lindsay40k]

This was my original plan for Redistribution but I haven't pursued it for a couple of reasons. Firstly, with HR's new Corporation system it felt like too much of a penalty, too much of a deterrence to ever wanting to consider adopting the civic in the later game. Secondly, and also because of HR's new Corporation system, there are some tricky technical challenges to implementing it. Hasn't felt worth attempting yet.

If I am late to the corporate party and my neighbour has filled my cities with branches that I don't have much resources to make the most of, it might be in my interest to adopt an anti-capitalist Redistribution to prevent their branches from super-charging their HQs and burn what investment they've made so far.

Historically, communist movements have tended to reach critical mass in less developed countries where people feel they are being exploited by foreign capitalists, giving this a fairly solid historical basis.

As a consolation for missing out on Corporations, perhaps running Redistribution could be a prereq for Wonders like the Kremlin, Comintern and Berlin Wall?

The rebellion system is a perfect framework for a use for Berlin Wall, which would come along at a time when capturing a Capital means sitting on a mountain of enemy Culture. It didn't work out in reality, but then the wonders of Religious architecture have got similarly romanticised effects.

Comintern existed (on paper) to incite the poor downtrodden workers of the world; it could give everyone NOT running Redistribution +1 in every city (perhaps +1 per civ running Redistribution, though this 'global revolution' could get very dangerous in big maps), or perhaps double everyone's penalty for Corporations sans Social Welfare (probably more sensibly scaled).

I'd suggest that if St Vasily's Cathedral were to be altered to have a 'patriotic defense' effect like Civ V's Himeji Castle (quite appropriate for a Wonder that was knocking around during the Patriotic War)*, Kremlin could be restored to its original Civ IV status as an economic wonder, thereby affording a catchup mechanism for Corporate latecomers.

Of course, dropping Redistribution would mean betraying the revolution and losing all of these Wonders' benefits!


*alternative use for St Vasily: causes you to enter a Golden Age whenever you recapture a lost city with at least level 3 culture, preferably with a brief snippet of the 1812 Overture or Soviet National Anthem replacing the GA 'bonnnng' FX. Drawbacks: would need to have a cooldown to avoid enabling an endless GA; AI probably won't understand it. But come on, imagine the awesomeness of driving Napoleon out of Moscow or Hitl-sorry, Bismarck- out of Stalingrad, and the patriotic music starts playing

 

[lindsay40k]

RE Law civics. This would perhaps be a headache, but what if Government and Legal were split into Executive, Legislature and Judiciary? Just a thought.