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Feedback: Civics

Discussion in '[MAC+WIN] Civ4 - History Rewritten' started by Xyth, Jul 16, 2011.

  1. gatinho65

    gatinho65 Chieftain

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    What about Citizenship (or an analagous word), the idea that SOME people had a new legal status and that the system wasn't just the few despotic Rulers and everyone else? This existed alongside slavery (and caste system too?) for a long time, so it is Liberty of sorts but not for everyone. This could be the addition for those era's you think are lacking a good option.

    I guess I'm still approaching this from the perspective that Legal is about creating categories of people so that then decisions can be made about how they must behave and be punished. This ties into rationales for those rules (tradition, gods etc) but I think it is fundamentally about deciding who has status and who doesn't as societies got so much bigger and more complex.

    I still think Egalitarianism is a very old idea and more of societal value, rather than a legal foundation, while Equal Rights is a lot newer in the sort of Individual Rights way we think about it. If Equal Rights is kept on as a later civic in Legal, in this individualistic/western way that recognizes everyone--regardless of gender/ethnicity/etc--there is still a middle era civic missing. Something Legal that is similar to the problematic Feudalism civic lol. People have status of some kind, but not as equals, and alongside or post-slavery as a large institution.

    Someone with more background on non-western civ's might know a Word/Concept that would fit those era's, some legal organization of a complex society that was around for a long time. What were the legal philosophies of the Ottoman Empire? It was around forever lol, or at least through those Era's where you feel like something might be missing from the civic's options.

    Interesting ideas, lindsay40k. I too would really like to have some strong redistributive/egalitarian options later in the game, or to at least preserve them as viable options from the beginning. I always play Tropico as a commie lol, best way to deal with dissent.
     
  2. Eucalyptus

    Eucalyptus Warlord

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    The Jared Diamond book "The World Until Yesterday" describes the evolution of law as necessarily paralleling that of the growth of societies, in terms of 4 categories of social size (band, tribe, chiefdom and state). In particular, at the point at which a society has grown to become a `society of strangers', prior law based on kinship interests can no longer work and needs to be replaced by law based on authority.

    If the game models legal civics as describing only how a society dispenses justice, and not economic (how business is run) or social (how free are the citizens) details of that justice, then this could be done in the following way. Let maintenance costs, which rise with population, be offset by increasingly sophisticated legal civics choices at various percentage levels (say 0%, 10%, 20%, 30%, 50%). (Why not have a civics category without all manner of specialist bonuses and maluses?) That would mean that sensible law choices increase monotonically with population, motivating civs to actually use each of them as they become available.

    Here are 5 categories describing how law is implemented, not its content.

    1. Tribal Decisions on justice are made by consensus, and this is necessary as the members of the society are all related and have `elders' but not a paramount leader. The resulting ad hoc verdicts are unsystematic and serve largely to maintain harmony and stability rather to punish, reward or ensure equality.
    2. Chiefly (requires Monarchy) Decisions are made by an authority who is also the leader. They remain ad hoc and serve to benefit the leader, but are more systematic.
    3. `Stele' (requires Writing) A few basic written laws help guide the leader and a few judges to make more systematic decisions on uncomplicated issues. There isn't a `legal system' with professional courthouses and lawyers as such. Think Hammurabi and Magna Carta.
    4. Codified (requires the tech that enables Courthouses) A whole body of precedence-based written law is created, possibly based on a charter from the Stele period. A legal system emerges with judges, courts and lawyers, but the process is subject to random intervention by the ruler.
    5. Constitutional (requires Constitution) A constitution and parliament determine laws that are implemented by an independent judiciary.
     
  3. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    I felt ancient redistribution was more important than modern versions of such a system, but I understand the desire to have the civic to still be relevant to the later eras. Will see what I can do.

    Not possible. While I can restrict when a wonder can or cannot be constructed, I cannot 'switch off' its effects without actually removing the wonder. I also cannot teach the AI how to handle something like this.

    There's a very limited array of effects I can give to civics. It's already a significant enough challenge to go from 30 back to 36, with all the religious effects taken by Tenets. Consider 36 the absolute maximum for both civics and tenets.

    The Society category is the one that is about 'categories of people', and Citizenship is most probably going to be a civic there. One way to think of it is that the Law category determines the way law is defined and enforced, and the Society category defines who benefits from that and how.

    Egalitarianism is an old concept for sure, but I'd argue that back then it was largely about equality within societies, and less about equality both within and between societies as it is these days. I feel the latter is the more relevant and complete concept to try represent in the civics system.

    I also wonder if Egalitarianism is too broad a concept to fit in a single category, and is instead more of a 'meta-civic' that you can aim for with your civic choices. Much like Capitialism or Communism.


    (Will comment on Eucalyptus' post later)
     
  4. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Okay, here is a quick synopsis of what I'm working towards with the civics review in 1.23. No doubt there will be some further changes to the design once I start (re)assigning effects to each civics. I'll be aiming to keep civic effects as intact as possible, as balance is pretty good overall and it would be a shame to undo that too much. New civics are in green, renamed civics are in orange, civics that have shifted category are in blue.


    GOVERNMENT
    • Chiefdom
    • Monarchy
    • Theocracy
    • Aristocracy
    • Confederation
    • Democracy


    LAW
    • Tradition
    • Restitution
    • Retribution
    • Authoritarianism
    • Liberty
    • Equality


    LABOUR
    • Subsistence
    • Agrarianism
    • Slavery
    • Professionalism
    • Industrialism
    • Social Welfare


    ECONOMY
    • Reciprocity
    • Redistribution
    • Central Planning
    • Regulated Trade
    • Free Market
    • Sustainability


    MILITARY
    • Militia
    • Clan Warfare
    • Mercenaries
    • Vassalage
    • Warrior Code
    • Standing Army


    SOCIETY
    • Tribalism
    • Caste System
    • Estate System
    • Citizenship
    • Nationalism
    • Multiculturalism
     
  5. AbsintheRed

    AbsintheRed Deity

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    Looks great!
     
  6. gatinho65

    gatinho65 Chieftain

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    Sounds pretty good, I'm really looking forward to reading as you flesh out the civics and their effects. I like Estate System too, less awkward than Manorialism or something lol. Is Regulated Trade the sorta kinda Mercantilism?

    I'm curious why you prefer Free Market to Laissez Faire, when you could make the case that the latter term/concept had more impact, plus some non-european analogues. Free Market seems like a particular anglo conception of laissez faire, and one that has morphed into something rather unlike the original Smith use of the term in much more recent times. Maybe this is just being nitpicky lol, but I guess it is these current uses of Free Market that bug me and seem too narrow and ahistorical, more like ideology than practice.

    I like your thinking here, makes a lot of sense.
     
  7. lindsay40k

    lindsay40k Emperor

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    I think it's a good point that Free Market has an awful lot of baggage in the English speaking world from present political rhetoric.
     
  8. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    That was Leoreth's excellent suggestion. Fits the scheme pretty much perfectly I reckon.

    Yes. I've tried to make the Economic category less about ideology and more about actual practice. Mercantilism was both ideological and Eurocentric, Regulated Trade covers it and other protectionist or mixed economic systems.

    I prefer it because it's a bit more descriptive and fits well with the naming of the other economy civics, especially now that I've renamed several of them.
     
  9. Little Faith

    Little Faith Warlord

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    I think Free Market and Laissez Faire are different concepts.

    Free Market to me connotes a system where you are free to set up businesses without having to earn that privilege from some form of political entity.
    Laissez Faire is more about the right of the wealthy an fortunate to keep their (supposedly) well earned property from pesky taxation, redistributive schemes and social obligations.

    As for the social category, I think Citizenship and Nationalism are way too close to each other thematically. I'd rather you keep one of these and introduce Clans as a civic.

    Tribalism: People are seen as being part of extended family groups known as tribes living in close proximity. Quite similar to other social animals.
    Clans: People are still seen as part of larger family groups but matters of heredity and lineage are the uniting factor rather than communal living.
    Caste System: People are seen as preordained by birth to occupy a certain social niche.
    Estate System: People are seen as being part of various socioeconomic groups.
    Citizenship/Nationalism: People are seen as individuals subject/belonging to the state.
    Multiculturalism/Internationalism: People are seen as individual "citizens of the world" subject to whatever laws of the place they presently inhabit.
     
  10. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I would echo Little Faith's point here. Not only is Free Market the more universal term, it also describes a system, while Laissez Faire is more like a specific type of policy within that system.

    Free Market might be more closely associated with Anglo-American or European thought on economics (which is kind of hard to avoid considering where the field originated), but its central features - such as private property and corporations as the main economic actors as opposed to the state - can certainly be found in other economies, even if they did not explicitly think of it as Free Market.

    Free Market also has the advantage that it leaves more room for interpretation and meta civics. For example, I'd imagine Free Market + Social Welfare = Scandinavian or continental European style market economies. Free Market + Industrialism = Gilded Age style, more laissez faire oriented economies and so on.

    I have taken so many great ideas from HR that I'm happy to give a little back :)

    I've had the same thought. It becomes even more apparent when thinking about which civilizations would historically run which civic in a particular period, because then it's hard to decide who is running which.

    In a sense, Citizenship is still the principle under which modern states operate. It is clearly different from previous concepts of society in that it acknowledges the state as a separate entity in its own right, and defines society by who has citizen status in the state. This is fundamentally different than other concepts of society which mostly thought in terms of relationships between actual people.

    Both Nationalism and Multiculturalism acknowledge the same thing. I think it's also a question of what the Multiculturalism civic is meant to encompass. Is it just modern progressive multiculturalism, which is mostly focused on immigration and cultural relativism/equality? Or does it also include older concepts, for example multiculturalism in states like Austria-Hungary or the Ottoman Empire? In that case multiculturalism is a much older concept though, and probably the "norm", while Nationalism is the new paradigm that broke with it.
     
  11. gatinho65

    gatinho65 Chieftain

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    Both models emphasized that only certain types of individuals made good economic actors and should be empowered. It has always basically been a battle between different groups of rich people fighting over ways to make themselves richer lol.

    I think it is actually more the opposite. Laissez Faire described real actual historical economic systems in a variety of countries, and the term was used far outside France. Smith was theorizing about it even though he didn't use the term himself, but he was adding to a conversation that had already been established.

    Free Market was particularly anglo until the last century and was always more an ideal or theoretical model rather than an actual working economic system. Many have made the case that there never has been nor is there now a Free Market economy in or between any real life countries.

    In addition, corporations were seen in the laissez faire model as 'creatures' of the state and needed to be regulated in order to keep the model working. I think Corporatism, where they are the main 'individual' economic actors is actually a system that describes real economies more so than Free Trade lol, especially in the last century. Now that they can even have religious views of their own and are the only 'voters' that actually matter, we are in uncharted territory lol.

    On the other hand, I get the idea that Free Market as an ideology rather than a historic system might be useful as a component of a meta-civics, so that it could influence a whole variety of political/social/legal systems. However, I still would argue that the term has taken on a meaning in contemporary times that is simply not historical and thus should be avoided. In most of the post-communist world it equates with 'Looting' in the popular consciousness (yes, that vast world outside graduate schools of economics), so another reason maybe to avoid it lol.

    Xyth puts a lot of effort into the pedia articles and I see no reason why Laissez Faire couldn't be used in an educational way, whereas using Free Market will make plenty of people think they know what that means and skip the reading, and they would be wrong.

    But since Market mechanisms have influenced thinkers from anarchism to communism to fascism, maybe you could call the civic Market Economies? That is bland but would act as that flavor for a variety of civics and avoid the particulars of either Laissez Faire or Free Market. Especially if you are going for actual practice rather than ideology in your design of the civics.

    I'm hoping it is the older concept, which I would really like to see in the game, even if it is located at the 'end' of the category and thus looks like it should be the 'latest'. Its hard to avoid the positivist orientation of the game overall, but I think for most players of HR it will be clear enough that any civic can be useful throughout the game, once prereq's have been met.

    Human Rights seems like the civic that gives Citizenship to all humans in the world, regardless of nationality, or even without it, such as refugees or stateless people. I guess this particular civic wouldn't be in the game anymore, unless Multiculturalism is intended to include this meaning as well.
     
  12. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    I think it is obvious that no actual economic system came close to the theoretical ideal of a free market, but that is hardly unique to this concept. This argument can be easily applied to other valid civic labels such as Democracy or Equal Rights. Both exist in modern society, but not actually in a form that perfectly approaches the ideals behind it. I would argue that these terms can apply to their flawed practical realization as well as their philosophical background.

    Any game mechanic is in the end an abstraction and idealization. To me, that means that if in doubt, applicability becomes more important than accuracy.

    I could get behind that. It emphasizes the market aspect, which in my opinion is a necessary prerequisite for laissez faire economics, and has a much wider scope and applicability.
     
  13. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Free Market:

    My feelings on the topic are akin to Leoreth's. I've been talking to my partner, who is an economist, about the terminology. While Laissez Faire is the older term, Free Market is the broader one and in her opinion the one closest to what I'm aiming for with the civic. So I'd prefer to stick with that, or at least some alternative that has 'Market' in the description. 'Market Economy' is probably a bit too broad though.


    Citizenship

    This civic is meant to represent societies such as the Greek Polis, Phoenician colonies, the Roman Republic and early Empire, and a number independent cities/principalities/colonies in medieval times. Certain individuals in society are granted rights and responsibilities that others (e.g. women, slaves, non-landowners, followers of a particular religion) are not entitled too. The nature of citizenship often varies from city to city, and a citizen of one city does not necessarily have the same standing in another city, even if they are in the same civilization (the Roman Empire is the notable exception). In other words, citizenship as it existed in several places before nation-states did.

    I realize that it's a bit confusing as Nationalism and Multiculturalism retain the concept of citizenship, but I can't think of names that work better. Open to suggestions.


    Multiculturalism

    Multiculturalism will probably be unlocked somewhere in the later half of the tech tree, but the Society category is one I'd like to make available to unlock via a trait or wonder.
     
  14. Leoreth

    Leoreth 心の怪盗団 Moderator

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    Oh, in that case it works, I would say. If I recall correctly, Citizenship has been first suggested by someone putting it in the context of Enlightenment era political thought, so I just assumed you had the same idea in mind. In that case, the concept is definitely older than the Estates System, so switching their places would probably be more accurate and avoid the confusion we had a bit.

    I would still like to discuss this a bit: are there really any further examples beyond the Roman Republic/Empire? Carthage? I don't know if Greek poleis really count as example. Even the democratic ones (with Athens as prominent example) granted political participation to everyone living in the city, excepting the obvious cases such as women, slaves, foreigners. But as far as I'm aware there was no legal process to acquire this privileged status, which I would see as a requirement of the idea of citizenship (the Roman idea that everyone could become a citizen of Rome was certainly novel for its time).

    Maybe this is a candidate for moving it back and granting access through wonders/traits?

    So am I interpreting you correctly that you intend it to reflect more modern ideas behind multiculturalism?
     
  15. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    The order I've listed civics in each category aren't necessarily the order in which they'll unlock. Still working all that out. At the moment the Society category is ordered by concept more than anything. Law category likely to see some shuffling too. Other categories have changed less, so will probably remain as listed.



    As far as I can tell, empire-level citizenship back then was unique to Rome. So in a way it's the Greek model that's more important to represent, as there were definitely similar city-level examples of citizenship throughout the classical and medieval world. As it's a Society civic I consider the legal aspect less important than how it determines social structure. Even if citizenship is granted just for living in a city (and being male, etc), that still creates a society that's markedly different to tribal/caste/feudal alternatives.

    It's also important to consider who is excluded from citizenship. This is a big difference between Citizenship and Nationalism. With Citizenship, non-citizens still live and work within the state, they just have different status. With Nationalism, factors like religion and gender are much less likely to be factors for exclusion, but non-citizens are often not welcome within the state at all.

    That's an option for sure. As mentioned earlier, the Society category is one I'd like to have unlocked by a wonder or a trait. Currently considering Imperialist (replacing the research from capturing cities bonus) or Progressive (replacing faster cottage growth - which will probably be a bonus in the Society category anyway).

    Primarily. It's prescriptive multiculturalism in the eras of colonialism and nation-states, meant as an alternative to Nationalism. Multiculturalism existed in older times, but was smaller in scope and wasn't usually the defining element of social structure. However, there some examples where significant and politically-directed multiculturalism happened as a result of imperialism, and this why Imperialist is a tempting choice as the trait to unlock the Society civics (works for Rome and Citizenship too, if needed).
     
  16. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    Ended up changing much more than I intended, but for the better I feel. Presented without comment for now, let me know what you think.



    --- GOVERNMENT ---

    Spoiler :
    Chiefdom
    Low Upkeep
    Low Dissent
    • +25% food in capital
    • +1 happiness from Palace

    Monarchy
    Requires Property
    Medium Upkeep
    Medium Dissent
    • +50% production in capital
    • +50% commerce in capital

    Theocracy
    Requires Priesthood
    Medium Upkeep
    Low Dissent
    • +100% culture in capital
    • +2 happiness per city with state religion
    • Can train Missionaries without Monasteries

    Aristocracy
    Requires Nobility
    Medium Upkeep
    Medium Dissent
    • +100% espionage in capital
    • +1 wealth per specialist

    Confederation
    Requires Constitution
    Low Upkeep
    High Dissent
    • -50% maintenance from distance to capital
    • +1 happiness from Harbour

    Democracy
    Requires Representation
    High Upkeep
    Medium Dissent
    • +50% Great Person emergence
    • +1 research per specialist​


    --- LAW ---

    Spoiler :
    Tradition
    Low Upkeep
    Low Dissent
    • +25% culture in all cities
    • +1 happiness from Monument

    Restitution
    Requires Ethics
    Low Upkeep
    Medium Dissent
    • +2 health in all cities
    • +100% growth for Cottage, Hamlet, Village

    Retribution
    Requires Law
    Medium Upkeep
    Low Dissent
    • +25% espionage in all cities
    • +2 happiness from Jail

    Authoritarianism
    Requires Dogma
    High Upkeep
    Low Dissent
    • Unlimited Spies
    • +1 happiness per military unit stationed in a city

    Liberty
    Requires Civil Liberties
    Medium Upkeep
    Medium Dissent
    • Unlimited Scientists
    • +1 commerce from Village, Town

    Equality
    Requires Civil Rights
    High Upkeep
    Medium Dissent
    • +1 free specialist per city
    • Unhappiness in civilizations without Equality​


    --- LABOUR ---

    Spoiler :
    Subsistence
    Low Upkeep
    Low Dissent
    • +1 production from Camp, Harvest Boats
    • +1 commerce from Fishing Boats

    Agrarianism
    Requires Calendar
    Medium Upkeep
    Medium Dissent
    • +1 commerce from Farm
    • +1 production from Pasture
    • +1 health from Water Well

    Slavery
    Requires Masonry
    Medium Upkeep
    High Dissent
    • +25% trade route yield as production
    • Can sacrifice population to finish production

    Professionalism
    Requires Artisanry
    Medium Upkeep
    Medium Dissent
    • 100% faster building of Improvements
    • +1 production from Workshop
    • +1 commerce from Workshop

    Industrialism
    Requires Machine Tools
    High Upkeep
    Medium Dissent
    • Unlimited Engineers
    • +1 commerce from Watermill, Lumbermill
    • +2 production from Corporations

    Social Welfare
    Requires Labour Unions
    High Upkeep
    Low Dissent
    • Unlimited Doctors
    • Can spend wealth to finish production
    • No unhappiness from Corporations​


    --- ECONOMIC ---

    Spoiler :
    Reciprocity
    Low Upkeep
    Low Dissent
    • +25% trade route yield as food
    • +3 commerce from Palace

    Redistribution
    Requires Record Keeping
    Low Upkeep
    Medium Dissent
    • +1 commerce from Orchard, Quarry
    • +1 happiness from Granary

    Central Planning
    Requires Civil Service
    High Upkeep
    Medium Dissent
    • +100% research in capital
    • +1 commerce from Plantation, Mine
    • Corporations have no effect

    Regulated Trade
    Requires Economics
    Medium Upkeep
    Medium Dissent
    • +100% wealth in capital
    • +1 trade route in every city
    • Foreign Corporations have no effect

    Free Market
    Requires Economics
    Low Upkeep
    High Dissent
    • Unlimited Merchants
    • +50% trade route yield as commerce
    • +2 commerce from Corporations

    Environmentalism
    Requires Ecology
    High Upkeep
    Low Dissent
    • No unhealthiness from population
    • +1 commerce from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve
    • No unhealthiness from Corporations​


    --- MILITARY ---

    Spoiler :
    Militia
    Low Upkeep
    Low Dissent
    • +100% experience from combat in own borders
    • +1 happiness from Walls

    Clan Warfare
    Requires Riding
    Low Upkeep
    High Dissent
    • No war weariness
    • +100% wealth from pillaging and capturing cities

    Mercenaries
    Requires Employment
    No Upkeep
    Medium Dissent
    • +1 support cost per military unit
    • Wealth earned from combat in rival territory
    • -50% cost to upgrade military units

    Vassalage
    Requires Land Tenure
    Medium Upkeep
    Medium Dissent
    • Can draft units each turn
    • +2 production from Forts

    Warrior Code
    Requires Stirrups
    High Upkeep
    Low Dissent
    • +25% military unit production
    • +1 happiness from Barracks, Castle

    Standing Army
    Requires Logistics
    High Upkeep
    Medium Dissent
    • +100% Great General emergence
    • New units receive +2 experience​


    --- SOCIETY ---

    Spoiler :
    Tribalism
    Low Upkeep
    Low Dissent
    • +100% units with free upkeep
    • +20% city defense

    Caste System
    Requires Oratory
    Low Upkeep
    High Dissent
    • Unlimited Artists
    • +25% building construction with state religion

    Estate System
    Requires Politics
    Medium Upkeep
    Medium Dissent
    • +25% unit production with state religion
    • +2 commerce from Forts

    Citizenship
    Requires Nationhood
    Medium Upkeep
    Medium Dissent
    • -50% maintenance costs from number of cities
    • +3 happiness in largest cities

    Nationalism
    Requires Journalism
    High Upkeep
    Low Dissent
    • +1 espionage per specialist
    • +1 production from Village, Town
    • No import of foreign culture over trade routes

    Multiculturalism
    Requires Logistics
    Medium Upkeep
    High Dissent
    • +1 culture per specialist
    • +1 food from Village, Town
    • +100% export of culture over trade routes​
     
  17. dretnoth

    dretnoth Warlord

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    Actually better.
    Nice job. :goodjob:
    I Hope this will be write sufficiently correct. Sry for bad EN
    The basic Civics is finaly cheap and stable and someone can stai on it from the start to the end.
    But if i want something more specific for Empire, i must be ready for the charge.
    The only thing thats is in my mind if the AI dont blow my Chip-Set. :badcomp:

    Again, you proved to us it is good to wait for the next chapter. :thumbsup:
     
  18. Nightstar

    Nightstar Prince

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    Quite impressive. I'm looking forward to the next release.

    What's left on the to-do list for it?
     
  19. Opera

    Opera Deity

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    Looks great! A lot of interesting choices to make.
     
  20. Xyth

    Xyth History Rewritten

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    I've decided to leave organized crime out for now. Didn't come together how I thought it would, need to rethink it. The only other large task on the todo list is sorting the Mississippians' unit art. After that, there's a ton of smaller tasks left to do, as there always are. I want to get a beta version out as soon as possible, so I'm sorting these remaining tasks into those that need to be done prior to that, and those that can be done while the beta is underway.
     

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