Feedback: Civics

[Simon_Jester]

The sheer diversity and ancient-ness of the leader lists works against me; I'm familiar with modern world history and ancient European and Mesopotamian history (mostly), but not so much with premodern history in other regions of the world.

Let's identify Civics that really need more leaders to favor them, just to keep things mixed up. With 140 leaders and 36 civics, a "balanced" number would be about four leaders per civic. 2-6 is reasonable, having a dozen people favor the same civic just means that games will artificially tend to converge on those civics and the civilizations that use them will be ahistorically popular.

The ones that need more:

-Despotism(?)
-Proclamation, Codification
-Tribalism(?), Social Welfare
-Reciprocity(?), Redistribution, Bureaucracy, Environmentalism
-Militia(?), Mercenaries
-Paganism(?), Fundamentalism

Let's try to have at least two leaders per civic if we can.

Meanwhile, the following civics are FAR too popular, and we should be actively looking for any pretext to move leaders away from them:
-Monarchy, Free Market, Vassalage.

These civics are so common that "will make you more popular with some foreign leaders" becomes almost a de facto extra bonus for the civic; in a large-map game there will nearly always be at least one Monarchy-loving leader in play, possibly more than one, for example.

Some ideas: For Fundamentalism, how about a Native American, Polynesian, or other such leader who rallied traditional culture against foreign intruders?

For Social Welfare, how about an ancient ruler famous for equitably distributing resources among rich and poor?

What about a leader who pioneered some kind of efficient use of land or resources for Environmentalism?
__________________

More specifically:

Willem van Oranje was the founder of the Dutch state, a small, rich, dense country that relied heavily on fortifications to defend itself and fought its greatest wars in the 17th century- Europe's great age of mercenaries. Perhaps Willem's favored civic should be changed to Mercenaries, to reflect Dutch military innovation and wealth during that period.

(I also note that Free Market economics as we now know them would be unwelcome to many ancient 'trading' leaders- the Dutch were very anticompetitive, even to the point of starting naval wars with England over their control of foreign trade).

Gilgamesh should definitely be moved to something a bit more imaginative, as noted before.

 

[Azoth]

An update on the favourite civics:

I've been looking at the leaders alphabetically, by civilization, starting with the Americans. As I write this, I've just polished off the French.
The sheer diversity of the leader list is an issue. I've been relying on Wikipedia quite heavily. (In the end, I'm not looking for historical nuance; all I need is a list of major achievements.)


Simon Jester:

Great suggestions for Solomon, El Cid, Marcus Aurelius, etc. I'll slot them in as I encounter them.
For Willem, I decided to go with Confederation, since he was one of the leaders of the Dutch revolt against the Spanish that resulted in the independence of the Netherlands as a union of provinces and free cities. (Besides, Willem raised an army of mercenaries to fight for him - but led them poorly. Ramesses used mercenaries to far better effect, so he can have the civic instead.)
In general, I'd rather focus on leader strengths than national goals when making a choice.

On the whole, I don't think we'll have too much trouble finding at least two leaders per civic, except perhaps Environmentalism.
We can probably manage to save modern civics for modern leaders, too. Social Welfare, for example, should refer to a modern social safety net. We have leaders for that: Haile Selassie and Roosevelt, at least.
(Ancient rulers famous for their justice and charity are probably a better fit for Altruism.)

And I'm happy to interpret Free Market more broadly, to include all capitalist societies interested in expanding foreign trade, even those that engage in anti-competitive practices.
(That's fine, since we no longer have a Mercantilism civic.)
But I don't think we should have leaders of pre-capitalist feudal and artisinal societies pining for Free Markets.

Environmentalism is another story: I'm not sure that any of the leaders in HR were significantly motivated by it.
Pioneers of efficient land and resource use are generally Bureaucrats. And Sitting Bull was a military and religious leader, not an environmentalist.

 

[Simon_Jester]

Ramesses- a clever choice. Willem, likewise.

Sitting Bull is a symbolic choice- he was one of the last Native American leaders to rally opposition against the expansion of American pioneers across the plains. Since said pioneers were the ones engaged in gratuitous slaughter of the buffalo herds the natives depended on, the ones clear-cutting forests and fencing off the plains, it seems reasonable to me that Sitting Bull become sort of a champion of environmental protection. Certainly the environmentalist movement feels that way about the Native Americans, and I think it's worth reflecting that.

It shouldn't be too hard to find at least one other leader who can be associated with the idea of harmony with nature, comfort in natural surroundings, and long-term preservation of ecological resources. I might suggest a Maya or Iroquois leader, although I'm loath to make environmentalism a Native American 'hat.'

 

[Azoth]

A second draft for the Government and Law civics:

--- GOVERNMENT ---

Despotism
Low Upkeep
• +X free units
• +X free military units

Monarchy
Requires Property
Medium Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• +50% in capital
• +1 from Palace

Theocracy
Requires Priesthood
Low Upkeep
• +2 per city with state
• +25% military unit production in cities with state
• Can train Missionaries without a Monastery

Aristocracy
Requires Genealogy
Medium Upkeep
• +10% in all cities
• +2 from Castle
• No maintenance costs from number of cities

Confederation
Requires Guilds
Medium Upkeep
• +10% in all cities
• +1 from Fishing Boats, Harvest Boats
• No maintenance costs from distance to palace

Democracy
Requires Politics
High Upkeep
• +10% in all cities
• +50% birth rate
• +1 from Village, Town​

--- LAW ---

Tradition
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Monument
• +25% in all cities

Proclamation
Requires Oratory
Low Upkeep
• +3 in X largest cities
• +50% in capital
• +100% Great General emergence within own borders

Authoritarianism
Requires Law
High Upkeep
• +1 per military unit stationed in a city
• +1 per specialist
• No non-state spread

Codification
Requires Constitution
Medium Upkeep
• +2 from Courthouse
• +50% in capital
• +100% growth for Cottage, Hamlet, Village

Jurisprudence
Requires Civil Liberties
High Upkeep
• +2 from Civic Square
• +1 per specialist
• +2 from corporations

Equal Rights
Requires Civil Rights
Medium Upkeep
• +1 free specialist per city
• +10% in all cities
• penalty for civs without Equal Rights​

Notes

• I've decided the Palace bonuses at Monarchy and Reciprocity are a good idea. When these bonuses are permanent, the capital dominates all other cities, and gets the best of the World and National Wonders. If these bonuses are transient and tied to civics, other cities can rise to prominence, and the power centre of a civilization can shift over time.
• Aristocracy and Confederation drop their penalties. Instead, they pick up +10% production and wealth, to square off against +10% research at Democracy. Theocracy returns to Low Upkeep, as compensation.
• We must devise a better name than Nobility. I'm still plumping for Genealogy to replace Nobility and Heraldry to replace Stirrups.
• The Courthouse and Civic Square bonuses bump up one level to Codification and Jurisprudence. Equal Rights picks up +10% commerce because it was being overshadowed by the other Law civics.
• I am convinced Codification, Jurisprudence, and Equal Rights are competitive with Authoritarianism. Remember, "+1 per military unit stationed in the city" is available at the start of the Classical Era in BtS, with Hereditary Rule, a Low Upkeep civic. And players still go out of their way to build the Pyramids and unlock the other civics in the category. So I don't see the need for a GP penalty.

I'm fairly happy with the other civic categories so I won't be posting a second draft; or, at least, not until Xyth posts first.
But I'm still working on favourite civics in my spare time.

 

[Xyth]

This took quite a bit longer to put together than I expected, partly because I've been quite busy, but also because I decided to experiment a little with some more non-standard bonuses. A few of these civics will require a little custom scripting for the AI; I can't make the AI understand the actual value of the bonuses, but I think I can get it to switch to or from such civics under appropriate circumstances.

Only one bonus is used twice (+25% culture) and I haven't given any further consideration to name or tech changes yet.



--- GOVERNMENT ---

Despotism
Low Upkeep
• No unit support costs
• +1 from Palace

As suggested, the Palace happiness replaces the one from the building itself. I haven't assigned any other aspects of the Palace to civics, for now at least. 'No unit support costs' may vary in description once I work out the best way to implement it, but that's the general idea of the bonus.


Monarchy
Requires Property
Medium Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• +50% in capital

No change.


Theocracy
Requires Priesthood
Medium Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• Can build Missionaries without Monasteries
• +2 per city with state religion

Unit production bonus has gone to Fundamentalism. Several capital-only bonuses have been added to the Government category (given the capital is the seat of government and all); Theocracy gets the culture one.


Aristocracy
Requires Nobility
Medium Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• +2 from Castle
• Short Golden Age when a Great General appears

Golden Age would be half the length of a regular one. This is probably the bonus I'm most unsure of, seem more appropriate to a wonder. Happy to replace it with a better suggestion. Number of city maintenance reduction has been removed entirely, more on that later.


Confederation
Requires Guilds
Medium Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• +1 from Harbour
• +1 from water tiles

+1 from water tiles is an alternative, probably more practical in gameplay terms but feels a bit unrealistic and is possibly imbalanced on archipelago maps. On the other hand, there's no equivalent of BTS' Moai Statue national wonder in HR (other than the Dutch UB). Feedback desired.

Overall, I want to redesign Aristocracy and Confederation so that they're not just slightly different versions of maintenance reduction. Feel free to offer alternative suggestions for the two new bonuses. Both will require some AI scripting/hacking to work, so we're still limited in what's possible, but not as limited as with the xml options alone.


Democracy
Requires Politics
High Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• +50%
• +1 from Village, Town

Research bonus is added and upkeep is raised to high.​

--- LEGAL ---

Tradition
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Monument
• +25% in all cities

Barbarism is gone, Tradition is the new Legal starting civic. Cemetery happiness goes to Paganism.


Proclamation
Requires Oratory
Low Upkeep
• +3 in largest cities
• +1 per specialist

New civic. Specialist espionage competes with specialist culture at Equal Rights.


Authoritarianism
Requires Law
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Spies
• +1 per military unit stationed in a city

GPP penalty removed. Espionage from specialists replaced by the weaker Unlimited Spies, which just didn't feel right in the Economic category. Means Unlimited Spies and Merchants are no longer paired but I felt of all the specialist-related civic bonuses, these are the most balanced apart.


Codification
Requires Constitution
Medium Upkeep
• +100% growth for Cottage, Hamlet, Village
• +2 from Courthouse

Same bonuses as 1.18 Jurisdiction. Makes more sense having them brought earlier I reckon, especially since both Codification and the Courthouse are unlocked by Constitution.


Jurisdiction
Requires Civil Liberties
Medium Upkeep
• No maintenance costs from distance from Palace
• +2 from Corporations

This is where maintenance reduction has moved to. I think this makes a lot of sense, thematically and in terms of game mechanics. Courthouses reduce maintenance, so it should be a legal civic that has a similar effect. Corporation bonuses are shuffled as Azoth suggested.

As mentioned earlier, there are no longer two different options for maintenance reduction. For balance they needed to be in the same tree, and that was boring. I chose the distance version over the number of cities version as the former scales in a more balanced manner.


Equal Rights
Requires Civil Rights
Medium Upkeep
• penalty for civs without Equal Rights
• +1 per specialist
• +100% longer Golden Ages

This is the last civic to be unlocked so by the time it's available, longer Golden Ages would be reasonably powerful and desirable. Not sure if it should be 50% or 100% longer.​

 

[Xyth]

--- LABOUR ---

Tribalism
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Fishing Boats, Harvest Boats
• +1 from Camps

The most 'tribal' improvements are affected by this civic. Coastal, forest, and tundra based civilizations might be tempted to retain this civic longer than others do, which fits I think.


Agrarianism
Requires Calendar
Medium Upkeep
• +1 in all cities
• +1 from Farm
• +1 from Pasture

No change.


Slavery
Requires Masonry
Medium Upkeep
• +1 in all cities
• +1 from Plantation, Quarry
• Can sacrifice population to finish production

No change.


Caste System
Requires Philosophy
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Artists
• Workers build improvements 50% faster
• +1 from Workshop

No change.


Industrialism
Requires Assembly Line
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Engineers
• +2 from Corporations
• +50% from chopping

Corporation bonus switched to food, as per Azoth's suggestion. I decided to remove the unhealthiness penalty because it felt cumbersome to gain and lose food from the same civic. I could perhaps add some extra to some industrial buildings to compensate. I also thought this would be the perfect place to reintroduce the chopping bonus from BTS.


Social Welfare
Requires Labour Unions
High Upkeep
• +1 from Village, Town
• Can spend to finish production
• No from Corporations

No change.​

--- ECONOMIC ---

Reciprocity
Low Upkeep
• +1 per specialist
• +10% city defense

Specialist wealth works well on a low upkeep civic, less trading gold for gold. Also competes with specialist research at Environmentalism. Gift economies promote strong
social ties and mutual interest/obligation in protecting the community - thus a modest city defense bonus. Early rushes become a bit less effective.


Redistribution
Requires Record Keeping
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Orchard, Mine
• +1 from Granary

Orchards sub in for Camps, which moved to Tribalism.


Professionalism
Requires Artisanry
Medium Upkeep
• +1 trade route in every city
• +1 from Workshop, Watermill, Lumbermill
• +1 from Market

Loses Orchards to Redistribution, but gains Watermills and Lumbermills from Bureaucracy.


Regulation
Requires Civil Service
High Upkeep
• 2 free specialists per city
• Foreign Corporations have no effect

Complete redesign, with a potential name change. 'Bureaucracy' felt too wide in scope. 'Regulation' possibly loses some of the Medieval feel but I think it captures the meaning of the civic well through all relevant eras, and contrasts better with the other civics in the category.


Free Market
Requires Economics
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Merchants
• +50% from trade routes
• +2 from Corporations

Corporation bonus changes to production as suggested.


Environmentalism
Requires Ecology
High Upkeep
• +1 per specialist
• +2 commerce from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve
• No from Corporations

Specialist bonuses are still limited to just 2 at once: or from the Legal category, or from the Economic category.​

 

[Xyth]

--- MILITARY ---

Militia
Low Upkeep
• +100% experience gained from combat within own borders
• +1 from Walls

As discussed previously.


Clan Warfare
Requires Riding
Medium Upkeep
• +2 in enemy cities when at war
• +100% from pillaging and capturing cities

The ultimate marauder civic - your enemies get nervous when they hear you coming. This is the other civic that will require AI scripting/hacking, as both of these bonuses are custom coded.


Mercenaries
Requires Employment
No Upkeep
• No war weariness
• +1 support cost per military unit
• -50% to upgrade military units

This is a tough one to test, we'll just have to see how it plays out in 1.19.


Vassalage
Requires Land Tenure
Medium Upkeep
• Can draft units each turn
• +25% in all cities
• +2 from Forts

Mostly the same as previously discussed, I just felt production was more useful and appropriate from Forts than commerce.


Warrior Code
Requires Stirrups
Medium Upkeep
• +25% military unit production
• +25% in all cities
• +1 from Barracks

No change.


Standing Army
Requires Logistics
High Upkeep
• +100% Great General emergence
• New units receive +4 experience

Now the only civic that provides experience to new units.​

--- RELIGIOUS ---

Paganism
Low Upkeep
• +1 in cities with State Religion
• +1 from Cemetery

As per Azoth's suggestion.


Orthodoxy
Requires Divination
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Priests
• Cities with state religion construct buildings 25% faster
• +10% in all cities

Unlimited Priests shifts here, still competing with unlimited Scientists at Rationalism. Tithes represented by a small wealth boost; several other religious civics have equivalents for other commerces.


Fundamentalism
Requires Dogma
Medium Upkeep
• No spread of non-state religion
• +25% military unit production in cities with state religion
• +10% in all cities

There's now a choice between boosting building production with Orthodoxy or unit production with Fundamentalism. You can no longer have both. No spread of non-state religion actually becomes a decent bonus once they start causing unhappiness.


Altruism
Requires Ethics
Low Upkeep
• +50% in cities with state religion
• +2 in cities with state religion

As suggested.


Rationalism
Requires Scientific Method
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Scientists
• +10% in all cities
• +1 from School

Pretty self-explanatory.


Pluralism
Requires Humanism
Low Upkeep
• No state religion
• No from non-state religions
• +10% in all cities

The category wide penalty for non-state religions exists, I'll just (hopefully) be implementing it in a way that it's only indicated on the civics screen by Pluralism.​

It's 2am here as I post this, hopefully I haven't written anything wrong. Let me know what you think. Government category is still a bit messy but otherwise I'm quite happy with this direction. AI hacking will be a challenge but I think I can achieve something rudimentary for the civics in question. Feedback on upkeep costs would be great, I'm bound to have mistyped or misjudged some of them.

Also, lets shift the discussion of favourite civics to the Feedback: Civilizations thread, in case one part of this review gets lost in the other.

 

[Little Faith]

You should make a seperate feedback thread for leader-specific feedback. We could discuss more subtle stuff like AI flavours there as well.

By the way Paganism should be renamed to Folk Religion.

 

[Nightstar]

As mentioned earlier, there are no longer two different options for maintenance reduction. For balance they needed to be in the same tree, and that was boring. I chose the distance version over the number of cities version as the former scales in a more balanced manner.

Something to note is that the no distance cost option is often the stronger one for conquerors, especially on map types with large separate landmasses, like Continents or Terra. Number of cities maintenance already has a cap, and "no distance maintenance" also eliminates colony costs for having multiple cities on other landmasses.

 

[Boggy]

• +2 in enemy cities when at war

Hm. I don't like that. If you adopt Clan Warfare, you won't only scare the civs you attack - it also weakens the civs which attack you. I wouldn't attack you if I will get 2 (+war weariness) in every city for that. A great civic for defenders, but I don't think that's intended. I like the idea, unhappiness for your enemy, but I don't think this would work very well.
Replacing it with +x% war weariness for your enemies would be an idea, but the problem is, defenders don't get war weariness - the most fights will be in their territory, where they have 100% culture and therefore get 0% war weariness.
As this civic is intended for attacking civs (isn't it?), this doesn't seem appropriate (to me). If you don't change this, I think 1 would be enough.

Pluralism
Requires Humanism
Low Upkeep
• No state religion
• No from non-state religions
• +10% in all cities

I think that's too weak, a higher cultural bonus could be nice (this should be the best civic for cultural victories, shouldn't it?). Maybe +x% per religion in all cities?

Equal Rights: I like this idea, longer Golden Ages. But 50% should be enough, I think.

And one more thing... At the moment, you can have no war weariness in every city if you build a Distillery, a Broadcast Tower, a Jail and the National Monument. In BtS, you need to adopt Police State to get that. I liked that. You could reduce these buildings to -20% war weariness and give Authoritarianism (or maybe Despotism) also -20%, for example. Or something like that. In BtS, you still have 50% war weariness with Rushmore and a Jail, and I don't see why you should have none in a state with civil rights etc.

 

[Xyth]

Something to note is that the no distance cost option is often the stronger one for conquerors, especially on map types with large separate landmasses, like Continents or Terra. Number of cities maintenance already has a cap, and "no distance maintenance" also eliminates colony costs for having multiple cities on other landmasses.

Yeah, I'm going to do some more research before I confirm which of the two options will be used here. More feedback welcomed.

Hm. I don't like that. If you adopt Clan Warfare, you won't only scare the civs you attack - it also weakens the civs which attack you. I wouldn't attack you if I will get 2 (+war weariness) in every city for that. A great civic for defenders, but I don't think that's intended. I like the idea, unhappiness for your enemy, but I don't think this would work very well.
Replacing it with +x% war weariness for your enemies would be an idea, but the problem is, defenders don't get war weariness - the most fights will be in their territory, where they have 100% culture and therefore get 0% war weariness.
As this civic is intended for attacking civs (isn't it?), this doesn't seem appropriate (to me). If you don't change this, I think 1 would be enough.

I'll see if I can work out a way to implement it so that it only affects civilizations you are attacking. If not, 1 will do. It's not entirely inappropriate; declaring war on a civilization where warfare is an integral way of life would make your population a bit uneasy.

I think that's too weak, a higher cultural bonus could be nice (this should be the best civic for cultural victories, shouldn't it?). Maybe +x% per religion in all cities?

It's more powerful than it looks I think. With the other Religious civics you need to build Temples to mitigate the that non-state religions will cause (in 1.19), but with Pluralism those same Temples will instead cause positive in your cities. Depending on the number of religions in play, it can amount to quite a lot of cheap happiness. With the additional culture bonus this edition of Pluralism is stronger than 1.18's version.

Equal Rights: I like this idea, longer Golden Ages. But 50% should be enough, I think.

Noted.

And one more thing... At the moment, you can have no war weariness in every city if you build a Distillery, a Broadcast Tower, a Jail and the National Monument. In BtS, you need to adopt Police State to get that. I liked that. You could reduce these buildings to -20% war weariness and give Authoritarianism (or maybe Despotism) also -20%, for example. Or something like that. In BtS, you still have 50% war weariness with Rushmore and a Jail, and I don't see why you should have none in a state with civil rights etc.

Yeah, I need to review war weariness reduction. Will do for 1.19, thanks for the reminder.

 

[Boggy]

It's more powerful than it looks I think. With the other Religious civics you need to build Temples to mitigate the that non-state religions will cause (in 1.19), but with Pluralism those same Temples will instead cause positive in your cities. Depending on the number of religions in play, it can amount to quite a lot of cheap happiness. With the additional culture bonus this edition of Pluralism is stronger than 1.18's version.

Yeah, it's stronger than in 1.18. But Pluralism is very weak in 1.18, I think. I get a bit happiness, ok, but it's never better than Rationalism. I would only use it for diplomatic reasons. Additional culture is only good for Cultural Victories, and the happiness... I don't think that's a big problem in this era. Maybe it will be with non-state religions causing , but I would still prefer Rationalism I guess. We'll see.

 

[Azoth]

Now it's my turn to say:
As usual, some things I really like and a few things I'm not so keen on.

Things I Really Like

• adding new, nonstandard bonuses, such as longer Golden Ages and increased city defense
• removing reduced city maintenance from the Government column
• pairing the culture/espionage and wealth/research specialist bonuses
• tying Camps to Tribalism
• removing the health penalty at Industrialism
• removing Unlimited Spies from Bureaucracy
• adding a production bonus on Forts at Vassalage
• moving Unlimited Priests to Orthodoxy
• adding small commerce bonuses to most civics in the Religion column
• moving the category wide penalty from the Religion civics into the background

Things I'm Not So Keen On (and Why)

• adding capital-only bonuses to most civics in the Government column. Apart from Despotism and Monarchy, the government types are fairly decentralized. Thus the bonuses make more sense elsewhere: the wealth bonus at Bureaucracy than at Confederation; the culture bonus at Codification than at Theocracy.
• bonus commerce from water tiles at Confederation. This will be imbalanced on Archipelago maps, particularly since Judicial leaders can adopt it on Turn 0. Any civic that provides cities with 0 to 20 per turn depending on geography is suspect.
• renaming Bureaucracy, Regulation. Regulation is another name for law; regulations are a part of all economic systems. Free Markets have regulations prohibiting monopolies and general strikes. Environmentalism demands regulations restricting pollution and land development. Regulation does not contrast well with these civics; Bureaucracy, with all its connotations, is the better name.
• limiting bonus experience on units to Standing Army. It makes the civic too powerful, especially since Tactical leaders can adopt it on Turn 0. I would keep smaller bonuses at Tribalism and Fundamentalism.

I'll have a fourth draft up shortly.

 

[Azoth]

--- GOVERNMENT ---

Despotism
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Palace
• No unit support costs

No change.


Monarchy
Requires Property
Medium Upkeep
• +2 from Palace
• +50% in capital
• +50% in capital

If Despotism provides happiness in the capital, then Monarchy should provide even more. This happiness bonus shifts to the state religion for Theocracy, and Castles for Aristocracy, before sliding back down for the later civics, Confederation and Democracy.


Theocracy
Requires Priesthood
Low Upkeep
• +2 per city with state
• +25% military unit production in cities with state
• Can train Missionaries without a Monastery

I like the fact that you can have both bonus production on buildings and units in cities with the state religion. It creates synergy between the Theocracy and Orthodoxy civics. Besides, bonus experience is the more valuable bonus and it should stay at Fundamentalism. That creates a different synergy between Theocracy and Fundamentalism. I also suggest Low civic upkeep, to better compete with the new Aristocracy and Confederation civics.


Aristocracy
Requires Heraldry
Medium Upkeep
• +2 from Castle
• +1 per specialist
• +34% from

Looking for different economic bonuses for Aristocracy and Confederation? Look no further than specialist and trade route bonuses. +34% seems to be the right number, since it provides 1 bonus production per 3 commerce trade route and, in the late game, 2 bonus commerce for any 6 commerce trade routes. These bonuses take a while to kick in so they are balanced for Judicial leaders.


Confederation
Requires Guilds
High Upkeep
• +1 from Harbour
• +1 from Fishing Boats, Harvest Boats
• +34% from

Production bonus from Fishing Boats and Harvest Boats, for better balance on Archipelago maps. Plus bonus food from trade routes, thus the High Upkeep.


Democracy
Requires Politics
High Upkeep
• +1 per specialist
• +50% Great Person birth rate
• +1 from Village, Town

Bonus research from specialists, to compete with bonus wealth at Aristocracy.​

--- LAW ---

Tradition
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Monument
• +25% in all cities

No change.


Proclamation
Requires Oratory
Low Upkeep
• +3 in X largest cities
• +50% in capital
• +100% Great General emergence within own borders

I must say I prefer my original suggestion. Proclamations come straight from the capital, thus the espionage bonus. Plus, rulers accustomed to leading by command make for better generals.


Authoritarianism
Requires Law
High Upkeep
• +1 per military unit stationed in a city
• +1 per specialist
• -25% in all cities

Bonus espionage per specialist is too perfect a fit for Authoritarianism to abandon. I propose a culture penalty for balance: unlike a culture bonus, it will be significant for all playstyles. Cities will take longer to expand to their second ring and territory along borders will be more likely to "defect" to the culture of neighboring empires.


Codification
Requires Constitution
Medium Upkeep
• +2 from Courthouse
• +50% in capital
• +100% growth for Cottage, Hamlet, Village

Bonus culture in the capital, because that's where the new code of laws is drafted.


Jurisprudence
Requires Civil Liberties
Medium Upkeep
• +2 from Civic Square
• +1 per specialist
• +2 from corporations

Bonus culture from specialists moves here, to compete with bonus espionage at Authoritarianism. It's also a great fit for Civil Liberties: "Give me the liberty to know, to utter, and to argue freely according to conscience, above all liberties." Not to mention, all these culture bonuses in the Law column offer a genuine choice for players pursuing Culture Victories.


Equal Rights
Requires Civil Rights
High Upkeep
• +1 free specialist per city
• +100% longer Golden Ages
• penalty for civs without Equal Rights

I don't think +100% longer Golden Ages is too strong for the end of the game, when it might take three or more Great People to launch a Golden Age. But it does deserve High Upkeep.​

 

[Azoth]

--- LABOUR ---

Tribalism
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Camp
• New units receive +2 experience

Moving bonus commerce from Camps to the Labour column is problematic because it makes Camps near worthless once players switch away from Tribalism, at least until they discover Gunpowder. The base yield of Camps (1 commerce) can be replicated by Mines, Orchards, and Workshops simply by adopting the relevant Economy civic, and all of these improvements offer other yields besides. I suggest bonus food from Camps instead. That way, civilizations with few rivers and fresh water lakes will be tempted to retain this civic, which fits. (The rest will prefer Farms and Orchards.) I also suggest bonus unit experience, for several reasons: to better contrast with the more "sedentary" Labour civics, to add spice to the early game, to keep up with bonus city defense from Reciprocity, and to limit the power of Standing Army.


Agrarianism
Requires Calendar
Medium Upkeep
• +1 from Pasture
• +1 from Farm
• +2 from Market

Two health from Markets is a more interesting alternative to a flat health bonus. Markets are already a questionable build item since most players will not have access to more than one or two of their multiplier resources. This bonus creates synergy between Agrarianism and Professionalism, and strengthens Financial leaders slightly. Bonus health from Wells, Smokehouses, or Grocers are possible alternatives.


Slavery
Requires Masonry
Low Upkeep
• -20% defense in all cities
• +1 from Plantation, Quarry
• Can sacrifice population to finish production

If Industrialism loses its health penalty, so should Slavery. I suggest a city defense penalty instead. Slave revolts were a major military liability and I much prefer this implementation to random slave revolt events. Also: Low Upkeep, since slaves were cheap, and slavery highly profitable.


Caste System
Requires Philosophy
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Artists
• +1 from Workshop
• Workers build improvements 100% faster

Worker bonus raised to 100%, to avoid losses to rounding and better compete with the other Labour civics.


Industrialism
Requires Assembly Line
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Engineers
• +1 from corporations
• +50% from chopping

Two food per corporation, up to eight food per city in total, is too powerful. It can easily quadruple city growth rates and will support four free specialists per city! I suggest you stick with one food per corporation.


Social Welfare
Requires Labour Unions
High Upkeep
• No from Corporations
• +1 from Village, Town
• Can spend to finish production

No change.​

--- ECONOMY ---

Reciprocity
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Oasis, Reef
• +20% defense in all cities

Bonus city defense is a great idea. I suggest +20%, equal to one culture level, and fully effective against Gunpowder units. Instead of bonus wealth from specialists (which seems inappropriate for a society without currency), I suggest bonus happiness from natural features that support local commerce: Oases and Reefs.


Redistribution
Requires Record Keeping
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Camp, Mine
• +1 from Granary
• -25% in all cities

An added culture penalty, since Camps have been strengthened at Tribalism, and because Redistribution is the closest HR civic to the brutal communism favoured by Mao and Ho Chi Minh.


Barter
Requires Artisanry
Medium Upkeep
• +1 per city
• +2 from Market
• +1 from Orchard, Workshop

Retains original bonuses.


Bureaucracy
Requires Civil Service
Medium Upkeep
• +100% in capital
• Foreign corporations have no effect
• +2 from Lumbermill, Watermill

Retains many of its original bonuses. "Unlimited Spies" is replaced with "No Foreign Corporations." Commerce bonuses are bumped up to compensate, and match those at Environmentalism.


Free Market
Requires Economics
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Merchants
• +34% from
• +2 from Corporations

Trade route bonus reduced to a more balanced 34%.


Environmentalism
Requires Ecology
High Upkeep
• +100% in capital
• No from corporations
• +2 from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve

Swaps bonuses with Democracy. It's a better fit for both, I think. Democracies value transparency and academic integrity, hence bonus specialist research. Environmentalism demands coordinated change to greener technologies, hence bonus research in the capital. Competes with bonus wealth at Bureaucracy.​

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

Bureaucracy
Requires Civil Service
Medium Upkeep
• +100% in capital
• Foreign corporations have no effect
• +2 from Lumbermill, Watermill

Retains many of its original bonuses. "Unlimited Spies" is replaced with "No Foreign Corporations." Commerce bonuses are bumped up to compensate, and match those at Environmentalism.

I like your civic suggestions over Xyth's, for the most part, but this one irks me. (As well as the +2 experience from tribalism - overpowered for a starting civic)
A few things:
• +1 and +1 from lumbermills and watermills is better, in my opinion. Other civics only give +1 or , or both. Not +2.
• The name should really be centralization. It gives bonuses to the capital, makes foreign corporations ineffective and increases the productivity of things which (at least I think) are more associated with the government than private companies.
• It should have a high upkeep. It's a bit overpowered with medium upkeep.

 

[Azoth]

--- MILITARY ---

Militia
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Walls
• +100% experience gained from combat within own borders

No change.


Guerrilla Warfare
Requires Riding
Medium Upkeep
• Can draft X units each turn
• +50% enemy war
• +100% from pillaging and capturing cities

A name change, to broaden the scope of this civic: Guerrilla Warfare is applicable to all civilizations across all eras. Guerrillas often press civilians into service, so unit drafting moves here. And, like Boggy, I prefer increased enemy war wariness to reduced happiness in enemy cities. The one requires that actual battles be fought; the other can be used to inflict damage remotely. And it can be nasty when stacked, with allies and vassals piling in. Increased enemy war wariness is a defensive bonus, true; but increased pillage gold is an offensive bonus, so the civic works both ways.


Mercenaries
Requires Employment
No Upkeep
• No war
• +1 support cost per military unit
• -50% to upgrade military units

No change.


Vassalage
Requires Land Tenure
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Spies
• +2 from Fort
• No maintenance costs from distance to palace

Unlimited Spies and reduced city maintenance move here. They're a perfect fit: reduced maintenance costs, because local governors are put in charge of distant cities; and unlimited spies, to keep an eye on all those vassals and puppets. Reduced maintenance costs was a poor fit for Jurisdiction because the civic is unlocked well after Courthouses are available. Vassalage is now a useful stopgap for large empires before they can control maintenance costs via Courthouses.


Warrior Code
Requires Stirrups
Medium Upkeep
• +2 from Barracks
• +25% military unit production
• Great Generals launch Golden Ages

Warrior Code is the best civic for the Great General bonus.


Standing Army
Requires Logistics
High Upkeep
• +25% war
• New units receive +4 experience
• +100% Great General emergence

Standing Army picks up a slight war wariness penalty to keep its power in check and partly solve the problem of -100% war wariness from buildings in the late game.​

--- RELIGION---

Paganism
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Cemetery
• +1 in cities with state

No change.


Orthodoxy
Requires Divination
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Priests
• +10% in all cities
• Cities with state construct buildings 25% faster

Raised to High Upkeep. All those bonuses add up to a pretty powerful package, especially Unlimited Priests, which will help players found more religions.


Fundamentalism
Requires Dogma
Medium Upkeep
• No non-state spread
• +25% in all cities
• New units receive +2 experience in cities with state

Espionage and culture are less useful than wealth and research, so the stronger espionage bonus from Vassalage moves here. Increased unit experience returns to this civic, as its most important bonus and an alternative to Standing Army.


Altruism
Requires Ethics
Low Upkeep
• +2 in all cities
• -25% in all cities
• +50% in cities with state

A flat health bonus, to reduce the amount of extra coding for civics and the AI; plus, an espionage penalty, in keeping with flavour.


Rationalism
Requires Scientific Method
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Scientists
• +10% in all cities
• +2 from School

A slight increase in the happiness bonus for Schools. Rationalism is High Upkeep, after all.


Pluralism
Requires Humanism
Low Upkeep
• No state
• No from non-state
• +25% in all cities

A stronger culture bonus, taken from Warrior Code. The value of Pluralism lies in its Low Upkeep costs, unique among late game civics. Note that the other Low Upkeep Religion civics come with happiness penalties and, in the case of Altruism, an espionage penalty.​

 

[Xyth]

Some good points and ideas raised. Mulling it over and will construct a 5th draft soon.

 

[Boggy]

Equal Rights

I don't think +100% longer Golden Ages is too strong for the end of the game, when it might take three or more Great People to launch a Golden Age.

Of course, Equal Rights is the latest civic and deserves a strong bonus. But eight extra Golden Age rounds are stronger than one (or maybe two) round of Anarchy you need to switch into Equal Rights. You can just adopt it before you start your Golden Age and, after five rounds, return to your old civic without anarchy because you're in a Golden Age. I guess that would be worth even with only +50% Golden Age lenght (if the revolution lasts only one round), but that's hard to say [ok, you can say: If every tile provides 2:hamers: and 2 (in average), you get +50% and in a GA, so: 2 extra GA-rounds=1 round anarchy. But Golden Age don't affect trade routes, so this isn't precisely]. But many games are already won or lost in this era, so it won't make a big difference.

One more thing I want to say:

Two food per corporation, up to eight food per city in total, is too powerful.

Even up to ten food per city, in fact. There are two ways to found five corporations (only if the AI lets you found them, naturally): Taiyo, Nestle, Bombay Dyeing, De Beers, [Aramco, Toyota or Vinci] and Rio Tinto, BASF, Hudson Bay, East India Company, [Barilla, General Mills or McDonalds]. Praised be Excel charts

 

[Xyth]

As usual, these changes are getting better with every iteration. Keep the feedback coming all.


--- GOVERNMENT ---

Despotism
Low Upkeep
• No unit support costs

Loses the happiness from Palace to Monarchy, in the interest of not creating too many new sources of happiness. A small replacement bonus would be nice, but not vital.


Monarchy
Requires Property
Medium Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• +50% in capital
• +1 from Palace

As described above.


Theocracy
Requires Priesthood
Low Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• Can build Missionaries without Monasteries
• +2 per city with state religion

I never like the military unit bonus here because Theocracies aren't inherently militaristic - that should be determined by Military and Religious civic choice. This is now the only civic in the category that gives 2 happiness.


Aristocracy
Requires Nobility
Medium Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• +25% from trade routes
• +1 from Castle

Good idea bringing back the food/production from trade routes mechanic, I'd forgotten about it. It's a bit unintuitive but it works and the AI understands it. I'd be very hesitant to have it set higher than 25% though; it's deceptively powerful, especially on larger mapsizes with many landmasses.

Espionage in the capital works here as I don't mean Aristocracy to be decentralized in nature. It's meant to represent senates and oligarchies as well as feudal lords. There's still a capital and a lot of diplomacy, backstabbing, and subterfuge would be going on in it. Even if the capital bonuses get shifted away from this category (more on this later) I still want Aristocracy to have some form of espionage bonus.


Confederation
Requires Guilds
High Upkeep
• +25% from trade routes
• +1 from specialists
• +1 from Harbour

I think wealth from specialists works better here than at Aristocracy, matching the civic's mercantile/colonial theme.


Democracy
Requires Politics
High Upkeep
• +50%
• +1 per specialist
• +1 from Village, Town

Research from specialists shifted here as suggested, to compete with wealth at Confederation.​

--- LEGAL ---

Tradition
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Monument
• +25% in all cities

No change.


Proclamation
Requires Oratory
Low Upkeep
• +3 in largest cities
• +1 per specialist

No change, for now. +50% in capital works well here, I just feel it's needed more at Aristocracy. If we come up with a suitable alternative for Aristocracy (and Theocracy) then I have no problem with switching that bonus to Proclamation (and the culture one to Codification). The domestic great general bonus I'm a bit hesitant to use at all, as it's not all that different from the one at Standing Army and they stack pretty strongly.


Authoritarianism
Requires Law
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Spies
• +1 per military unit stationed in a city

No change here. I don't mind flavour penalties but if we can avoid balance penalties I think we should. I've been doing some research on how the AI chooses civics and it seems that penalties unrelated to aren't taken into consideration at all.


Codification
Requires Constitution
Medium Upkeep
• +100% growth for Cottage, Hamlet, Village
• +2 from Courthouse

No change, for now. As mentioned above, I'm fine with moving the capital culture bonus here if we come up with good alternatives for Aristocracy and Theocracy.


Jurisdiction
Requires Civil Liberties
Medium Upkeep
• No maintenance costs from distance from Palace
• +2 from Civic Square
• +2 from Corporations

Even with the availability of Courthouses and the Seasonal Palace, distance maintenance reduction is still quite strong. It just feels too essential when it's available earlier. In BTS, it's available much later than Courthouses and it's still one of the most popular civic choices (though that's in part due to people's dislike of the corporation system). I think it's a perfect fit at Jurisdiction. I like the Civic Square bonus though and I think it can be justified at Medium Upkeep.


Equal Rights
Requires Civil Rights
Medium Upkeep
• penalty for civs without Equal Rights
• +1 per specialist
• +100% longer Golden Ages

Culture from specialists does work at Jurisdiction but I much prefer it here. Equal rights is all about diversity and giving opportunities to minorities that were denied them in the past. It's not as strong as a free specialist so I think this could remain at Medium upkeep, even at 100% Golden Age length.​