Feedback: Civics

The changes look good. I especially like +1:) from Harbour for Confederation. I do have some concerns: Free Market and Environmentalism, both of which picked up a third bonus, are now far stronger than Bureaucracy, which lost the hammer bonus for Watermills and Lumbermills. Environmentalism is also too health focused, I agree.

Let me know if your ideas on Bureaucracy and Environmentalism. If they're not too complex I can still tweak them. They're the two civics I'm least happy with atm.

'Unlimited Scientists' moves from Democracy to Rationalism while the science bonus for specialists is split between the two civics. This avoids the possibility of Unlimited Scientists in 4000 BC for Judicial leaders. It's also a better fit for the civics: Rationalist societies invest heavily in scientific research (unlimited scientists, specialist bonus). Democratic traditions promote free inquiry (specialist bonus only). Lastly, it leads to better balance with Pluralism: unlimited scientists become less important as more buildings with specialists slots are constructed.

I'm trying to restrict all the '+1 commerce per specialist' bonuses in just two categories (currently Legal and Religion), so that specialists don't get too powerful. This you have to choose wealth or espionage (Legal), and research or culture (Religion). With similar bonuses from traits and wonders specialists could get quite a bit stronger than in BTS. This is why I removed Industrialism's +1:gold per specialist.
 
In my opinion, environmentalism is already too strong.
Fortunately, the lack of ill health from Corporations will not have any effect, since if you are in environmentalism, you should not be anywhere your health cap.

I propose instead:
Environmentalism
Requires Ecology
High Upkeep
• +5 health in all cities.
• No ill-health from Corporations
• +2:commerce: from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve

I have not been following all of the changes to camps, etc.
However, Redistribution is available early, and makes camps very strong.
Currently, camps with Redistribution are very strong, helping Savannahs, Flat Forests and Flat Jungles, while unirrigated grasslands and plains are weak until much later when one can build something on them.
I am not sure that having no penalty at all for Redistribution is a good idea.

There's been a few tweaks and changes to civics in 1.18. most due to the changes in corporations and improvements. Thought I'd better list them before release in case any last minute changes are needed.


--- GOVERNMENT ---

Confederation
Requires Guilds
Medium Upkeep
• No maintenance costs from distance to Palace
• +1:) from Harbour

This civic suffered from being entirely :gold: focused and it was almost always the better choice over Aristocracy. The trade route is removed and some happiness for coastal cities is added instead. Upkeep lowered to medium.​


--- LABOUR ---

Agrarianism
Requires Calendar
Medium Upkeep
• +1:commerce: from Farm
• +1:hammers: from Pasture
• +1:health: from Granary

Upkeep increased and improvements adjusted to suit changes to that system. Should help rebalance early game production vs commerce.


Industrialism
Requires Assembly Line
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Engineers
• +2:yuck: in all cities
• +2:hammers: from Corporations

Social Welfare
Requires Labour Unions
High Upkeep
• +1 production from Village, Town
• Can spend wealth to finish production
• No :unhappy: from Corporations

These two civics now give you a choice between extra production from corporations (even the food or commerce ones) or mitigating the unhappiness they cause.​


--- ECONOMY ---

Redistribution
Requires Record Keeping
Low Upkeep
• +1:commerce: from Camp, Mine
• +1:) from Granary

Since Camps have been redesigned the trade route penalty is no longer needed here.


Professionalism
Requires Artisanry
Medium Upkeep
• +1 trade route per city
• +1:commerce: from Orchard, Workshop
• +1:) from Market

Professionalism takes the trade route from Confederation and the unlimited merchants moves to Free Market. Happiness from Market lowered and commerce bonus split between Workshops and the new Orchard improvement. May get renamed.


Bureaucracy
Requires Civil Service
Medium Upkeep
• +1 Foreign Corporations have no effect
• +100%:gold: in Capital
• +1:commerce: from Watermill, Lumbermill

Upkeep lowered to medium, no other changes. May get renamed.


Free Market
Requires Economics
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Merchants
• +50% trade route yield
• +50% faster production of Corporate Executives

Had to be redesigned due to corporate maintenance being removed. May get redesigned again if/when the public/private corporation mechanic is implemented post 1.18.


Environmentalism
Requires Ecology
High Upkeep
• No :yuck: from City Population
• No :yuck: from Corporations
• +2:commerce: from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve

Also mitigates corporate unhealthiness. I'm a bit concerned that this civic is too health focused, I may review it in the future but this'll do for now.​


--- MILITARY ---

Clan Warfare
Requires Riding
Medium Upkeep
• No war weariness
• Increased :gold: from Pillaging and Capturing Cities

At low upkeep this civic made it too easy to wage endless warfare with little drawback. Upkeep raised to medium so it gets harder to maintain too big a conquered empire. I may raise upkeep to high if it the issue still exists later.​


--- RELIGION ---

Orthodoxy
Requires Priesthood
High Upkeep
• Can build Missionaries without Monasteries
• Cities with state religion construct buildings +25% faster

Organized Religion renamed, no other changes.


Pluralism
Requires Humanism
Low Upkeep
• No state religion
• +1 happiness per non-state religion in a city

Formerly Free Religion. Only change is it goes from Medium to Low upkeep to make it a bit more competitive alongside Rationalism.​
 
In my opinion, environmentalism is already too strong.
Fortunately, the lack of ill health from Corporations will not have any effect, since if you are in environmentalism, you should not be anywhere your health cap.

I propose instead:
Environmentalism
Requires Ecology
High Upkeep
• +5 health in all cities.
• No ill-health from Corporations
• +2:commerce: from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve

Yeah that's something I've been considering, 'no :yuck: from population' is pretty powerful as it scales with city size. I still feel like the civic needs something extra that isn't health related though.

I have not been following all of the changes to camps, etc.
However, Redistribution is available early, and makes camps very strong.
Currently, camps with Redistribution are very strong, helping Savannahs, Flat Forests and Flat Jungles, while unirrigated grasslands and plains are weak until much later when one can build something on them.
I am not sure that having no penalty at all for Redistribution is a good idea.

In 1.18 Camps are only buildable on Forest and Tundra and they provide commerce instead of food. This tones them down considerably.
 
No :yuck: from population is quite powerful; I agree that it might have to go.
I'm still working out my ideas. A few questions:
  1. How large are the health and happiness penalties for corporations? Roughly 2:yuck: and 2:mad: per corporation?
  2. I understand why you would want to restrict specialist bonuses to certain categories. However, would you object to reducing the Religion bonuses to +1:culture: and +1:science: per specialist, leaving other +1:culture: and +1:science: to a third category? The total possible bonus, +3 of some combination of commerce types, would remain the same.
  3. Can you code any other bonus yields for corporations? Say +2:gold: from corporations or +1:food: from corporations? I suppose the AI wouldn't understand these bonuses so we couldn't use them widely, but it would be useful to have the option.
 
How large are the health and happiness penalties for corporations? Roughly 2:yuck: and 2:mad: per corporation?

Currently just 1 of each for each corporation.

I understand why you would want to restrict specialist bonuses to certain categories. However, would you object to reducing the Religion bonuses to +1:culture: and +1:science: per specialist, leaving other +1:culture: and +1:science: to a third category? The total possible bonus, +3 of some combination of commerce types, would remain the same.

That would be alright I guess. It would probably be alright to ad another +1:gold: and +1:espionage: too, so long as all such bonuses are confined to just 3 civic categories.

Can you code any other bonus yields for corporations? Say +2:gold: from corporations or +1:food: from corporations? I suppose the AI wouldn't understand these bonuses so we couldn't use them widely, but it would be useful to have the option.

The code I've written will work for food and commerce too. Wealth/research/culture/espionage should all be possible with a few additional tweaks.
 
Perhaps Environmentalism could add happiness for certain buildings, for example:
Public Transportation, Recycling Center, Solar Power.

Yeah that's something I've been considering, 'no :yuck: from population' is pretty powerful as it scales with city size. I still feel like the civic needs something extra that isn't health related though.
 
Here's my draft. It presupposes all the changes outlined in Xyth's last draft. Its purpose is to (a) achieve better balance in the Economy column; (b) restrict specialist bonuses to three columns; (c) restrict unlimited specialists to three columns not accessible at the start of the game; and (d) create synergy between particular civic pairings. The changes affect more civics than I intended, but I'm very happy with the results.

--- GOVERNMENT ---

Theocracy
Requires Priesthood
Low Upkeep
• +2:) per city with State Religion
• +25% military unit production in cities with State Religion

Theocracy is the only Government civic without an economic bonus. Its upkeep is reduced to Low to keep it competitive with other civics in the category.

Aristocracy
Requires Nobility
Medium Upkeep
• +1:commerce: from Farm
• +1:culture: per specialist
• No maintenance costs from distance from palace


Aristocracy is redesigned with flavour in mind. Aristocrats collect dues from peasants working their land (commerce from Farms), are great patrons of the arts (culture from specialists), and assume all functions of the state on their fiefs (ignore distance from Palace maintenance). Unlimited Spies move to Bureaucracy, away from Judicial leaders.

Confederation
Requires Guilds
Medium Upkeep
• +1:commerce: from Watermill
• +1:) from Harbour
• No maintenance costs from number of cities

Confederation offers a strong contrast to Aristocracy. Confederacies prioritize public works (commerce from Watermills), promote regional trade (happiness from Harbours) and treat all members as equals (ignore number of cities maintenance).

Democracy
Requires Politics
High Upkeep
• +1:science: per specialist
• +50%:gp:
• +1:commerce: from Village, Town

Democracy swaps Unlimited Scientists, too powerful in the hands of Judicial leaders, for extra science on specialists. The latter bonus is stronger, so upkeep is bumped to High.​


--- LABOUR ---

Agrarianism
Requires Calendar
Low Upkeep
• +1:hammers: from Pasture
• +1:commerce: from Orchard
• +1:health: in all cities


Agrarianism loses Farm commerce to Aristocracy but picks up Orchard commerce from Professionalism. Orchards definitely count as 'agrarian.' The health bonus moves away from Granaries, which already offer up to 4 health and 1 happiness at full strength. The contrast with Slavery and Industrialism is thus made clearer.

Industrialism
Requires Assembly Line
High Upkeep
• +2:yuck: in all cities
• Unlimited Engineers
• +2:hammers: from Corporations

Industrialism is plenty strong that it still deserves a High upkeep.​


--- ECONOMIC ---

Professionalism
Requires Artisanry
Medium Upkeep
• +1 trade route per city
• +1:commerce: from Workshop
• +2:) from Market

Professionalism keeps the trade route bonus, loses Orchard commerce to Agrarianism, and gains extra happiness from Markets to compensate. After many days of searching, I still think Apprenticeship is the best name for this civic. When societies grow so large that citizens cannot support themselves by working the land or the court (Redistribution) they must become apprentices in various crafts, professions, and cottage enterprises.

Bureaucracy
Requires Civil Service
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Spies
• +100%:gold: in Capital
• +1:hammers: from Lumbermill
• +1:commerce: from Lumbermill

Bureaucracy takes unlimited Spies from Aristocracy, to better compete with unlimited Merchants at Free Market. The Lumbermill bonus is restored, solving that problem. Lumbermills now produce 1 base hammer, 1 extra commerce at Paper, and 1 commerce along rivers. (That last is optional.) They are no stronger than any other primary improvement until you adopt Bureaucracy, at which point they can compete with secondary improvements. Also: "foreign corporations have no effect" is gone. With the new corporations and the elimination of corporate maintenance, it was too harsh a penalty.

Free Market
Requires Economics
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Merchants
• +50%:commerce: from trade routes
• +2:commerce: from Corporations

Why not replace that weak +50% faster production of Executives with bonus commerce from Corporations? (You can pare it back to 1 commerce if you feel it's too strong.)

Environmentalism
Requires Ecology
High Upkeep
• No :yuck: from Corporations
• +1:food: from Corporations
• +2:commerce: from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve

Food from corporations? Yes. Effective conservation prevents environmental degradation and promotes healthier, more sustainable farming, grazing, and fishing. The bonus is useful, different, and reasonably strong.​


--- MILITARY ---

Warrior Code
Requires Stirrups
Medium Upkeep
• +2:) from Barracks
• +25% military unit production
• +25%:culture: in all cities

Standing Army
Requires Logistics
High Upkeep
• New units receive +2 Experience Points
• +100% Great General emergence
• -50% upgrade cost for military units

This change is unrelated to the others but just makes sense. Barracks produce happiness for civilizations that value a martial lifestyle. Great Generals are more likely to emerge from civilizations that have mastered logistics and established professional armies.​


--- RELIGIOUS ---

Altruism
Requires Ethics
Medium Upkeep
• +50%:gp: in cities with State Religion
• +1:culture: per specialist
• +1:health: from Tavern

Altruism loses half its culture bonus to Aristocracy. In return, it picks up a Tavern health bonus: altruistic societies are very hospitable to travellers.

Rationalism
Requires Scientific Method
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Scientists
• +1:science: per specialist
• +2:) from School

Rationalism rightfully gains unlimited Scientists, to compete with unlimited Priests at Fundamentalism. In exchange, it gives up half its specialist bonus to Democracy.​
 
Yeah that's something I've been considering, 'no :yuck: from population' is pretty powerful as it scales with city size.

Something else to note is that Environmentalism currently makes the National Park *much* less useful.
 
Something else to note is that Environmentalism currently makes the National Park *much* less useful.

Does it? The health bonus is useless, of course, but do you build the National Park to get a health bonus? The free specialists are much more useful.
 
Here's my draft. It presupposes all the changes outlined in Xyth's last draft. Its purpose is to (a) achieve better balance in the Economy column; (b) restrict specialist bonuses to three columns; (c) restrict unlimited specialists to three columns not accessible at the start of the game; and (d) create synergy between particular civic pairings. The changes affect more civics than I intended, but I'm very happy with the results.

I quite liked some of the changes, but there were a few I was less keen on. In particular I didn't want to break up the yield bonuses for improvements so much; I don't want civic choices quite so dependant on geography. Here's a compromise draft, presupposing my previous changes.


--- GOVERNMENT ---

Theocracy
Requires Priesthood
Low Upkeep
• +2:) per city with State Religion
• +25% military unit production in cities with State Religion

I agree with the lowered upkeep here.


Aristocracy
Requires Nobility
Medium Upkeep
• +1:espionage: per specialist
• No maintenance costs from number of cities

Aristocracy keeps the espionage theme, taking this bonus from Authoritarianism. In the government category there is now a choice between espionage or research from specialists.


Democracy
Requires Politics
High Upkeep
• +1:science: per specialist
• +50%:gp:
• +1:commerce: from Village, Town

As per Azoth's suggestion.​


--- LEGAL ---

Tradition
Requires Oratory
Low Upkeep
• +1:) from Monument, Cemetery
• +1:culture: per specialist

Tradition swaps its culture bonus with Altruism's. The legal category now has a choice between culture and wealth (Codification) from specialists.


Authoritarianism
Requires Law
High Upkeep
• -25%:gp:
• +1:) per military unit stationed in a city

Authoritarianism loses its espionage per specialist to Aristocracy, GPP penalty lowered to compensate. Perhaps remove?​


--- LABOUR ---

Agrarianism
Requires Calendar
Medium Upkeep
• +1:health: in all cities
• +1:hammers: from Pasture
• +1:commerce: from Farm

Health no longer attached to Granary as suggested, otherwise no change.


Industrialism
Requires Assembly Line
High Upkeep
• +2:yuck: in all cities
• Unlimited Engineers
• +2:hammers: from Corporations

I'm fine with leaving upkeep at High here.​


--- ECONOMIC ---

Bureaucracy
Requires Civil Service
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Spies
• +100%:gold: in Capital
• +1:commerce: from Watermill, Lumbermill

Unlimited Spies works well here, competing with Free Market's merchants. I actually discovered a problem with 'no foreign corporations' last night, it wasn't working with my new corporation code as I expected it too. So it needed to be replaced, at least for 1.18. I agree that its much more of a penalty under the new system than it is in BTS.


Free Market
Requires Economics
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Merchants
• +50%:commerce: from trade routes
• +2:commerce: from Corporations

Extra commerce from corporations was actually my original plan for this civic, put aside when I decided to leave the public/private mechanic out of 1.18.


Environmentalism
Requires Ecology
Medium Upkeep
• +5:health: in all cities
• +2:commerce: from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve
• No :yuck: from Corporations

The food from corporations doesn't work for two reasons. Firstly, it ties this civic too tightly to corporations which isn't really realistic. Secondly, it would mean that two abilities of the civic were custom coded - making it very difficult to get the AI to interpret its value.

I'll go with a straight forward +5:health: for now, with upkeep lowered one notch. I'd like to revisit this civic again though.​


--- MILITARY ---

Warrior Code
Requires Stirrups
Medium Upkeep
• +25% military unit production
• +2:) from Barracks
• +25%:culture: in all cities

As per Azoth's suggestion.


Standing Army
Requires Logistics
High Upkeep
• +100% Great General emergence
• New units receive +2 Experience Points

I like the swap but I feel it made this civic too strong relative to the other choices, even with High upkeep. Lowered upgrade costs has moved elsewhere.​


--- RELIGIOUS ---

Altruism
Requires Ethics
Medium Upkeep
• +50%:gp: in cities with State Religion
• +25%:culture: in all cities

Culture bonus has swapped with Tradition.


Rationalism
Requires Scientific Method
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Scientists
• +2:) from School
• -50% upgrade cost for military units

Unlimited scientists moves here as Azoth suggested (and as it used to be in earlier revisions). Lower unit upgrades is the compensation, creating an alternative militaristic alternative to Fundamentalism. The civic gets a bit stronger relative to the other choices so upkeep is raised to High.​


One thing I particularly like about this overall setup is that all the specialist bonuses are better assigned. You can only have up to 3 types of unlimited specialists (formerly you could have 4) and up to 2 bonuses per specialist (formerly you could have 4).

If you spot any issues with this scheme let me know quick as 1.18 will go live this weekend, barring any last minute problems.
 
Bureaucracy doesn't seem to fit. One part of it (100% Gold in Capital) implies that it is supposed to be like a planned economy. The watermill/lumbermill part can work with that, too. But then you have spies. They are not at all related to the other two. If anything, a planned economy as implied with the first two effects would be more susceptible to spying, as the information would all have to be stored in one or two locations rather than several dozen. The now-removed No Foreign Corporations also implied a planned economy. But the spies still don't fit. What about a planned economy implies more spies in foreign countries? As mentioned above, it's just more vulnerable.
I think that Bureaucracy should give an overall production boost (10%?) because, in a planned economy, the government would be deciding what to do, not foreign entities, and would therefore be able to set quotas on what to build in a manner optimized for efficiency and working with the larger plans of the government.

And with rationalism, it just seems rather underpowered now. High cost for two happiness from schools, cheaper upgrade costs and unlimited scientists? I rarely get cities so large that I would build so many scientists, and since it comes later in the game, cities will already have some buildings offering free scientists. I think it should have an overall research boost. I also find the militaristic connotations weird.
 
The one major issue I see with your draft is +1:culture: per specialist for Tradition civic. Tradition is available very early, at Oration, and players should not be able to solve the problem of early city culture so easily. There are a number of options for early culture: Monuments, Theatres, Libraries, Stonehenge, an early religion, free Artist slots for Creative leaders, free specialist culture for Philosophical leaders. Each city must pick the option best suited to it. But +1:culture: per specialist circumvents them all. Players need only adopt Tradition (there are no other Legal civics available so early anyway) and build Cemeteries. Monuments and Stonehenge become redundant; and Creative and Philosophical leaders lose their early game edge.
If nothing else, I would leave the Legal civics alone. Return +25%:culture: to Tradition and +1:espionage: to Authoritarianism.

Here, then, is a counter-draft. It assumes the Legal civics are unchanged, and presupposes the following previous changes:
  • Upkeep for Theocracy is reduced to Low.
  • Agrarianism has a freestanding Health bonus and keeps the Farm commerce bonus.
  • Upkeep for Industrialism is raised to High.
  • Social Welfare removes the happiness penalty from Corporations.
  • The trade route penalty for Redistribution is removed.
  • Upkeep for Clan Warfare is raised to Medium.
  • Warrior Code swaps the Great General bonus for increased happy from Barracks.
  • Organized Religion and Free Religion are renamed Orthodoxy and Pluralism.

--- GOVERNMENT ---

Aristocracy
Requires Nobility
Medium Upkeep
• +1:commerce: from Orchard
• +1:culture: per specialist
(Optional)
• No maintenance costs from distance from palace

Confederation
Requires Guilds
Medium Upkeep
• +1:commerce: from Watermill
• +1:) from Harbour
• No maintenance costs from number of cities

Democracy
Requires Politics
High Upkeep
• +1:commerce: from Village, Town
• +1:science: per specialist (Optional)
• +50%:gp:

I understand that you don't want to spread improvement bonuses too widely; but since Democracy strengthens Villages and Towns, I see no reason why Aristocracy and Confederation can't have flavour bonuses for some of the rarer improvements. Farm commerce was perhaps too much for Aristocracy but the Orchard works just as well, especially as it produces Wine. Players won't build enough Orchards or Watermills to affect their civic choices; those will depend on whether they prefer zero distance maintenance or zero number of cities maintenance. I still think those bonuses ought to be swapped, by the way. Empires with many overseas holdings (like the British Empire) should prefer Aristocracy and zero distance maintenance, as they leave colonial management to expatriate governors and admirals drawn from the upper classes. Empires that sprawl across single continents (like the Soviet Union) should prefer Confederacy and zero number of cities maintenance, as they organize into a federation, bound by treaties and overlapping political units: cities, regions, provinces, and territories. Well, it's your call.

A final point: if you want to limit specialist bonuses to two civic categories, they should probably be Legal and Religious. Altruism is a much better choice for +1:culture: per specialist than Tradition, as I've explained above. So you can cut specialist bonuses from Government altogether (and lower the upkeep for Democracy to Medium) or you can retain those I've suggested.


--- ECONOMIC ---

Professionalism
Requires Artisanry
Medium Upkeep
• +1 trade route per city
• +1:commerce: from Workshop
• +2:) from Market

Bureaucracy
Requires Civil Service
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Spies
• +100%:gold: in Capital
• +1:commerce: from Lumbermill

Free Market
Requires Economics
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Merchants
• +50%:commerce: from trade routes
• +2:commerce: from Corporations

Environmentalism
Requires Ecology
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Scientists
• No :yuck: from Corporations
• +2:commerce: from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve​

Extra health for Environmentalism is uninspired. Not only does it make the civic too health-focused, it has the unintended consequence of encouraging more pollution: the 5:health: neatly balances 5:yuck: from Factories and Industrial Parks. (There's no use in letting the extra health go to waste, after all.) If you don't like bonus food from Corporations, I suggest unlimited Scientists: environmentalism spurs greater research into ways of living within the limits of the natural world. I would also bump Free Market to High Upkeep. It's clearly the strongest civic in the column. It can be the "high cost, high reward" option: reap the rewards of corporate greed but expect significant corruption and the occasional depression.

--- MILITARY ---

Standing Army
Requires Logistics
High Upkeep
• New units receive +2 Experience Points
• +100% Great General emergence
• -50% upgrade cost for military units​

I don't think this civic is too strong. If anything, I feel "+100% Great General emergence" is weaker than "+2:) from Barracks." Extra happiness across the empire helps mitigate war-wariness and directly increases citizen productivity. By contrast, the first few Great Generals are useful but they steadily lose their value, especially as they cannot contribute to Golden Ages. (I think.) Ideally, I would replace the starting Militia civic with no war-wariness Clan Warfare, and use the extra slot for a new civic, "Mercenary," which would provide -50% upgrade costs and +100% gold from pillaging and capturing cities. But that must wait until 1.19.


--- RELIGIOUS ---

Altruism
Requires Ethics
Medium Upkeep
• +50%:gp: in cities with State Religion
• +1:culture: per specialist

Rationalism
Requires Scientific Method
Medium Upkeep
• +1:science: per specialist
• +2:) from School​

Altruism and Rationalism are more or less unchanged from 1.17. The specialist bonuses can be bumped back up to +2 if you decide not to keep their counterparts at Aristocracy and Democracy. With only two bonuses, Rationalism should probably remain at Medium Upkeep.
 
Good point regarding Tradition. I'll revert it, along with Authoritarianism, Standing Army, and Altruism (but to just 1 culture per specialist). Other changes:


--- GOVERNMENT ---

Aristocracy
Requires Nobility
Medium Upkeep
• No maintenance costs from number of cities
• +25% espionage in all cities

Democracy
Requires Politics
Medium Upkeep
• +50%:gp:
• +1 from Village, Town

I imagine Aristocracy to be oligarchic or feudal, and Confederation to be colonial or an alliance of city-states. Thus the bonuses I've chosen for them. Confederation isn't meant to represent federations like the USSR.​


--- ECONOMY ---

Environmentalism
Requires Ecology
High Upkeep
• 1 free specialist per city
• +2:commerce: from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve
• No :yuck: from Corporations

Unlimited scientists does work here but not as well as at Rationalism. However, I think a free specialist fits even better. Certainly creates a more interesting and appropriate choice than health (and pollution induction). Only downside is that it's the same bonus as Equal Rights. They're both later game civics so I don't think its a balance issue, just a bit unpleasing aesthetically.​


--- RELIGION ---

Rationalism
Requires Scientific Method
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Scientists
• +1:science: per specialist
• +2:) from School

I'm not entirely happy about the religion category, and Rationalism in particular, being quite so specialist focused but it does seem the most balanced option for now. And I do really like the unlimited priests vs. unlimited scientists pairing.​



I think that'll do for now. We can discuss the other ideas post-1.18 (which should be uploaded tomorrow*, fingers crossed). I'm starting to warm to renaming Bureaucracy 'Centralization'. Still not convinced by any Professionalism alternatives yet, I suspect it needs a two word title to properly convey the meaning.


*It's 9pm Saturday in NZ at the time of writing this post.
 
Environmentalism
...
• +2:commerce: from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve


(This may be an inappropriate time to comment at this late stage, from somebody who has been away for some time ...)

I presume that the reasoning here is that Environmentalism causes a government to be able to generate extra income from its Nature and Marine Reserves via tourism. Or, is the government suddenly able to tax whales? ;)

But why does being environmentally-minded allow it to extract more tax from each Windmill? Does it help the wind blow harder?​
 
Looks good. There are some repeats: not only "+1 free specialist per city" at Environmentalism and Equal Rights but also "+25%:espionage:" at Aristocracy and Vassalage. Maybe you could replace the Vassalage espionage bonus with "zero unit upkeep"? (Instead of the current "reduced unit upkeep"?) And then replace the specialist bonus at Equal Rights with "+1:food: from Corporations"? But that would make the civic too corporation focused. Eh, we'll sort it out in 1.19.
 
(This may be an inappropriate time to comment at this late stage, from somebody who has been away for some time ...)

I presume that the reasoning here is that Environmentalism causes a government to be able to generate extra income from its Nature and Marine Reserves via tourism. Or, is the government suddenly able to tax whales? ;)

But why does being environmentally-minded allow it to extract more tax from each Windmill? Does it help the wind blow harder?

The income from Nature and Marine Reserves is indeed about tourism, but also sustainable management of nature and and the products made from it. Most environmentalists still eat game and seafood after all; these reserves ensure stocks replenish and the products the civ trades are higher quality and eco-friendly. Or something like that.

As for windmills, in the later eras they become wind turbines. So we can presume the extra income is from using the renewable electricity they generate.

Looks good. There are some repeats: not only "+1 free specialist per city" at Environmentalism and Equal Rights but also "+25%:espionage:" at Aristocracy and Vassalage. Maybe you could replace the Vassalage espionage bonus with "zero unit upkeep"? (Instead of the current "reduced unit upkeep"?) And then replace the specialist bonus at Equal Rights with "+1:food: from Corporations"? But that would make the civic too corporation focused. Eh, we'll sort it out in 1.19.

+25%:culture: also repeats, at Tradition and Warrior Code. But yeah, we can address these in 1.19 when we also look at your ideas for the starting civics.
 
Environmentalism currently grants +2:commerce: from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve. I don't think that this is good.

As for windmills, in the later eras they become wind turbines. So we can presume the extra income is from using the renewable electricity they generate.

Let me try this again. I'm in the Modern Era, and all my Windmills have long since been Wind Turbines generating electricity. I built them because they were profitable or productive, even back in the days when they were grinding flour. It was a nice bonus that they weren't polluting.

Then one day my government has a change of direction, and we realise that our world is becoming impoverished by species extinction, and that the health of the environment critically determines our own health. We adopt Environmentalism, meaning that we fight pollution and promote health in ourselves, our cities and our regions, and try to stop our population and industries from causing further devastation and extinctions of species. Suddenly, our already nonpolluting Wind Turbines generate more income! How? It isn't that we are suddenly able to charge our citizens more for that same electricity, because we want the citizens to love the Wind Turbines.

One election later and the neoconservatives are back in power. They scrap Environmentalism and, poof!, suddenly the Wind Turbines go back to generating less income from the same, nonpolluting source of electricity.

So, I'd really like the +2:commerce:from Windmills to go.



The income from Nature and Marine Reserves is indeed about tourism, but also sustainable management of nature and and the products made from it. Most environmentalists still eat game and seafood after all; these reserves ensure stocks replenish and the products the civ trades are higher quality and eco-friendly. Or something like that.

(Hey! What honest environmentalist would today eat game?)

I think that tourism is actually the whole answer here. The point of reserves (read real National Parks) is that extractive industries such as hunting and fishing are not supposed to be permitted within them. Incidental culls of game animals to control levels are not the same as game hunting in former times, even when the meat is sold for profit. Moreover, whilst marine reserves may well foster nurseries that help replenish stocks in surrounding fisheries, land reserves only nurture creatures that become roadkill or (are regarded as) agricultural (and other) pests.

However, tourism in places that would be protected within reserves by environmentalist governments is actually much more profitable under drastically non-environmentalist governments.

So, I'd also like the +2:commerce: from the Reserves to go.



Alternatives

In the real world, Environmentalism has direct health and happiness benefits, but really doesn't have immediate financial benefits. It does have short-term science benefits --- research and development of pollution-reducing technologies has long-term spinoffs. If run for long enough, sustainable management of resources should lead to productivity increases --- in particular in forestry and harvesting seafood (not from reserves!).

Can this be modelled in a playable way? Adding health and happiness is necessary but in the Modern Era, it isn't enough to make the civic an attractive game choice. I suggest instead:

  • +5 happy faces
  • no :yuck: from industrial buildings and mines
  • +25%:science:

It would also be nice if long-term use of the civic were rewarded with increased yields in (non-Reserve) forests and sea resources, with, say, after 20 turns (at normal speed), +1:hammers: from lumbermills, +1:food: from sea food bonus tiles?

Of course, Environmentalism is framed in a negative way --- stop doing things that have unmeasured negative costs. It would be nice if this negative framing could be reflected in the game --- civs not adopting Environmentalism could have higher health penalties from their industries and could suffer from diplomatic penalties from those that do adopt Environmentalism (as "what you do in our global environment affects us all").
 
Right, then. I'm ready to begin working on 1.19.
One of my goals is to revamp the starting civics. They do nothing at the moment, and that's such a waste.
(My other goal is to revamp all 50 UBs. Many of them are quite boring, offering only +25%:culture: on a random building. They should be unique.)

Let's start with the Military civics:

--- MILITARY ---

Warfare
No Technology Requirement
Low Upkeep
• No War :mad:

The new starting civic, under which conquest is seen as a way of life, and no distinction is made between soldiers and civilians. I'm not happy with the name but I can't think of any better: Clan Warfare sounds too ancient, Total Warfare sounds too modern, and Endemic Warfare sounds too technical. Any suggestions? The civic is set to Low Upkeep because every civilization should have the option to abandon the benefits of a more organized military in exchange for No War :mad: when fighting (and probably losing) a bitter, drawn-out war.


Mercenary
Requires Riding
No Upkeep
• +100%:gold: from Pillaging and Capturing Cities
• -50%:gold: to Upgrade Military Units
• +1:gold: Support Cost per Military Unit

A new civic to replace Clan Warfare; I'm particularly pleased with this one. No national military but mercenaries, hence no civic upkeep but support costs per unit. Players must hope that more plunder and more efficient upgrades (from private military contractors) can pay for the mercenaries. A good option for aggressive ancient empires (the Nubian Medjay for Egypt) and powerful midgame empires (Swiss mercenaries for France). Also: an excellent "favourite civic" option for many leaders.


Militia
Requires Employment
Low Upkeep
• Can Draft X Units per turn
• +100% Experience gained from Combat within own Borders
• +1:) from Walls

The old Conscription civic, renamed Militia, because many different forms of military organization rely on conscripts. Picks up bonus happiness from Walls since it is no longer the only civic that enables the draft.


Vassalage
Requires Land Tenure
Medium Upkeep
• Can Draft 2X Units per turn
• +25%:espionage: in all Cities
• +2:) from Castle

Vassals can draft twice as many conscripts as militias; I hope this is possible to code. The ability to draft units is so powerful that I feel it should be available on more than one civic. Besides, I've never liked "Reduced Unit Upkeep Costs:" the formula that determines the number of free units is terribly obscure and convoluted. I hope to recast the bonus as "No Unit Upkeep Costs" for Despotism civic.


Warrior Code
Requires Stirrups
Medium Upkeep
• +2:) from Barracks
• +25% Military Unit Production
• +25%:culture: in all Cities

No change.


Standing Army
Requires Logistics
High Upkeep
• New units receive +2 Experience Points
• +100% Great General emergence
• +1:) from Bunker

The upgrade discount is replaced with a weaker flavour bonus on Bunkers. Of the four most advanced military civics, two allow conscripts, two do not, but all provide happiness with the building most closely associated with them.​


NOTES:
  • I think you should be more clear when describing the Aggressive trait and the proposed Mercenary civic: not merely "increased :gold: from Pillaging and Capturing Cities" but "+100%:gold:" or whatever the case may be.
  • Minor, pedantic note: the names of the civic categories should be either nouns or adjectives, not both. Either Government/Law/Economy etc. or Political/Legal/Economic etc. I prefer nouns.
  • I'm still sorting out the bonuses for the other civic categories. I'm wondering what might be possible in terms of bonuses for specialists and state religions. How about: +5:science: from State Religion? +1:food: from State Religion? +2:health: from State Religion? +1:food: per specialist? +1:health: per specialist? +1:) per specialist? I realize that the AI might not recognize these bonuses but they would still be useful for flavour and diversity.
 
Warfare
No Technology Requirement
Low Upkeep
• No War :mad:

The new starting civic, under which conquest is seen as a way of life, and no distinction is made between soldiers and civilians. I'm not happy with the name but I can't think of any better: Clan Warfare sounds too ancient, Total Warfare sounds too modern, and Endemic Warfare sounds too technical. Any suggestions? The civic is set to Low Upkeep because every civilization should have the option to abandon the benefits of a more organized military in exchange for No War :mad: when fighting (and probably losing) a bitter, drawn-out war.


Mercenary
Requires Riding
No Upkeep
• +100%:gold: from Pillaging and Capturing Cities
• -50%:gold: to Upgrade Military Units
• +1:gold: Support Cost per Military Unit

A new civic to replace Clan Warfare; I'm particularly pleased with this one. No national military but mercenaries, hence no civic upkeep but support costs per unit. Players must hope that more plunder and more efficient upgrades (from private military contractors) can pay for the mercenaries. A good option for aggressive ancient empires (the Nubian Medjay for Egypt) and powerful midgame empires (Swiss mercenaries for France). Also: an excellent "favourite civic" option for many leaders.


Warrior Code
Requires Stirrups
Medium Upkeep
• +2:) from Barracks
• +25% Military Unit Production
• +25%:culture: in all Cities

No change.

Thank you! I have a couple of quick comments.


The default "Warfare" category should describe a poorly-organised, unprofessional conscript military whose size varies with campaigns, threats and seasons. I don't think that a no-war-weariness bonus is appropriate. Its only benefit is that it costs little, and this could better be reflected by an increased number of free units. That gives it a greater value as a fall-back position, and still leaves a contrast with civics that provide X conscripts per turn.

The name: Anything involving the word "Warfare" isn't appropriate because the civic also applies when no war is being waged. Some ideas: "Summary Army", "Warrior Army", "Heroics", "Civil Defence" (I prefer the latter).



The name "Mercenary" is grammatically inappropriate but "Mercenarism" is clumsy! What about "Mercenary Army"?



Why not use the chic word "Bushido" to replace "Warrior Code"? It's already been absorbed into English, if I am not wrong.
 
Environmentalism currently grants +2:commerce: from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve. I don't think that this is good.

Let me try this again. I'm in the Modern Era, and all my Windmills have long since been Wind Turbines generating electricity. I built them because they were profitable or productive, even back in the days when they were grinding flour. It was a nice bonus that they weren't polluting.

Then one day my government has a change of direction, and we realise that our world is becoming impoverished by species extinction, and that the health of the environment critically determines our own health. We adopt Environmentalism, meaning that we fight pollution and promote health in ourselves, our cities and our regions, and try to stop our population and industries from causing further devastation and extinctions of species. Suddenly, our already nonpolluting Wind Turbines generate more income! How? It isn't that we are suddenly able to charge our citizens more for that same electricity, because we want the citizens to love the Wind Turbines.

One election later and the neoconservatives are back in power. They scrap Environmentalism and, poof!, suddenly the Wind Turbines go back to generating less income from the same, nonpolluting source of electricity.

So, I'd really like the +2:commerce:from Windmills to go.

There's other ways we can look at it too. Under an Environmentalist government perhaps wind generation is more generously subsidised and with regulations allowing wind farms to be bigger and nearer population centres. The NIMBYs (Not In My Back Yard) are told to shut up. Wind power becomes reliable and cheaper and the economy is thus stimulated. Then the neocons get back into power, decide Wind farms are eyesores and cut their numbers, bow to the bribes of the coal and oil companies and remove subsidies and incentives, for clean wind power. Economic benefit is lost because wind farms revert to niche generation and economic gain is lost to environmental and health degradation, not to mention providing fat bonuses to coal and power company execs.

Ultimately though I'm not too worried about the strict realism of it; the same analysis can be done from different angles with similar conflicts and flaws for any improvement altering civic. There are no right answers.

What matters is gameplay balance and theme; you expect Agrarianism to be related to Farms, Environmentalism to be associated to Wind Turbines. Slavery being related to Quarries and Plantations makes sense. Other connections are less strong but they're for gameplay reasons. If we focus too much on the 'how', a lot of civics and other game mechanics stop making sense.

For example, shouldn't Banks be lowering instead of increasing wealth? :P

I think that tourism is actually the whole answer here. The point of reserves (read real National Parks) is that extractive industries such as hunting and fishing are not supposed to be permitted within them. Incidental culls of game animals to control levels are not the same as game hunting in former times, even when the meat is sold for profit. Moreover, whilst marine reserves may well foster nurseries that help replenish stocks in surrounding fisheries, land reserves only nurture creatures that become roadkill or (are regarded as) agricultural (and other) pests.

However, tourism in places that would be protected within reserves by environmentalist governments is actually much more profitable under drastically non-environmentalist governments.

So, I'd also like the +2:commerce: from the Reserves to go.

I don't disagree regarding land-based nature reserves, they don't provide the same surrounding area benefit that marine reserves do. But as I say above, it doesn't really matter. It makes enough sense in terms of gameplay and theme.

Finally, with civics we're quite restricted by the available mechanics. While I can add some custom coding, it's tricky because the AI doesn't really understand the value of it. So we have use what's available to construct 36 interesting and balanced civics. The more options we eliminate for not being perfectly realistic, the poorer the entire range of civics becomes. I'm not saying the 1.18 implementation of Environmentalism can't or shouldn't be improved, just that the priorities for doing so are different.
 
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