Feedback: Civics

[Xyth]

--- LABOUR ---

Tribalism
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Fishing Boats, Harvest Boats
• +1 from Camps

Food from Camps is better, but I'd still remove Camps from Redistribution. Camps and Tribalism will be fairly situational but that's okay. I definitely don't agree with free experience at game start. It makes early rushes easier, and early experience is already available from Barracks.


Agrarianism
Requires Calendar
Medium Upkeep
• +1 from Farm
• +1 from Pasture
• +1 from Water Well

Minor change, attaching the health bonus to the Water Well. I think that's the most sensible and thematically appropriate option, but I'm also fine with leaving it unattached to a building.


Slavery
Requires Masonry
Medium Upkeep
• +1 in all cities
• +1 from Plantation, Quarry
• Can sacrifice population to finish production

No change. I think Slavery's unhealthiness should stay; the unhealthiness of Industrialism can be represented by unhealthiness from buildings, there are no such equivalents for Slavery. I also feel Low upkeep would be far too strong. In general I feel Agrarianism and Slavery are two of the best constrasted and balanced civics in HR, I prefer not to mess with them.


Caste System
Requires Philosophy
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Artists
• Workers build improvements 100% faster
• +1 from Workshop

As suggested.


Industrialism
Requires Assembly Line
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Engineers
• +1 from Corporations
• +50% from chopping

I intended it to be +1, the +2 was a typo.


Social Welfare
Requires Labour Unions
High Upkeep
• +1 from Village, Town
• Can spend to finish production
• No from Corporations

No change.​

--- ECONOMY ---

Reciprocity
Low Upkeep
• +8 from Palace
• +20% city defense

Commerce from Palace returns here, as suggested earlier. Defense bonus increased as suggested too.


Redistribution
Requires Record Keeping
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Orchard, Mine
• +1 from Granary

Retains Orchard instead of Camp. I think there'll still be a niche for both.


Professionalism
Requires Artisanry
Medium Upkeep
• +1 trade route in every city
• +1 from Workshop, Watermill, Lumbermill
• +1 from Market

No change.


Centralization
Requires Civil Service
High Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• 1 free specialists per city
• Foreign Corporations have no effect

Capital wealth bonus returns, competing with research at Environmentalism. I agree with Azoth's reasoning in both cases. I think a free specialist is perfect for this civic, fits the theme well and is a more interesting choice. Also, since the specialist wealth and research bonuses are no longer in the category, you're no longer locked out from taking one of those if you want the free specialist.

Points taken about 'Regulation' as a name, but I still feel 'Bureaucracy' suffers similar problems - it's just not 'economic enough'. Nightstar and Jarlaxe Baenre have suggested 'Centralization'; I initially wasn't keen on this as it felt it crossed over with Redistribution too much. However, after some more thought, I realize there are significant distinctions (national vs. local, regulation vs. control, private vs. public, etc) that we can highlight further in the pedia. So I now propose that as the new name.


Free Market
Requires Economics
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Merchants
• +25% from trade routes
• +2 from Corporations

I've opted to drop the trade route bonus a bit further, and lower upkeep as well.


Environmentalism
Requires Ecology
High Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• +2 commerce from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve
• No from Corporations

As suggested. I've reduced the all the capital bonuses to 50%, I'm concerned 100% could get too powerful when paired with National Wonders.​

 

[Xyth]

--- MILITARY ---

Militia
Low Upkeep
• +100% experience gained from combat within own borders
• +1 from Walls

No change.


Clan Warfare
Requires Riding
Medium Upkeep
• +1 in enemy cities when at war
• +100% from pillaging and capturing cities

Not a fan of Guerilla Warfare as a name or concept, sorry. This civic is meant to represent the endemic warfare of the Celts, the Vikings raiders, the early Mongol's very way of life, and so on. I think there are many more instances of Clan Warfare in history than Guerilla Warfare, and the latter feels more like a tactic than a civic.

I actually tried to implement increased war weariness for enemies prior to the last draft. The only way its possible is to have it affect all other civilizations, not just the ones you're at war with. That's what lead me to the alternative above. Personally I don't mind it being both offensive and defensive in nature, but I'll still look at finding a way to narrow the scope if I can.


Mercenaries
Requires Employment
No Upkeep
• No war weariness
• +1 support cost per military unit
• -50% to upgrade military units

No change.


Vassalage
Requires Land Tenure
Medium Upkeep
• Can draft units each turn
• +25% in all cities
• +2 from Forts

No change. However, this espionage bonus is now duplicated (Vassalage and Fundamentalism) as the equivalent culture one is (Tradition and Pluralism). Both are duplicated in 1.18 though so it's not a big deal.


Warrior Code
Requires Stirrups
Medium Upkeep
• +25% military unit production
• +2 from Barracks
• Short Golden Age with appearance of a Great General

This was indeed the perfect place for this new bonus.


Standing Army
Requires Logistics
High Upkeep
• +100% Great General emergence
• New units receive +4 experience

I feel that if this civic is too powerful then the free experience should be simply reduced to 2 or 3, rather than adding a penalty. I deliberately removed free experience from other civics because they don't weaken Standing Army, they make it even stronger when you take them all together. Standing Army + Fundamentalism + Tribalism + Barracks = units starting with at least 12xp! That's far too much. I think 4xp should be the maximum possible from civics.​

--- RELIGION ---

Paganism
Low Upkeep
• +1 in cities with State Religion
• +1 from Cemetery

No change.


Orthodoxy
Requires Divination
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Priests
• Cities with state religion construct buildings 25% faster
• +10% in all cities

Upkeep increased as suggested.


Fundamentalism
Requires Dogma
Medium Upkeep
• No spread of non-state religion
• +25% military unit production in cities with state religion
• +25% in all cities

I prefer to keep the military production bonus here (instead of the experience one) for reasons already covered (too much free xp, militaristic Theocracies). Espionage bonus increased.


Altruism
Requires Ethics
Low Upkeep
• +50% in cities with state religion
• +2 in all cities

Using the standard health mechanic to avoid custom coding, as suggested. Was the espionage penalty just for flavour or for balance too?


Rationalism
Requires Scientific Method
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Scientists
• +10% in all cities
• +2 from School

Another typo, should have been +2 all along.


Pluralism
Requires Humanism
Low Upkeep
• No state religion
• No from non-state religions
• +25% in all cities

Culture bonus increased as suggested, taken from Warrior Code.​

 

[Howard Mahler]

I have not been following the discussion, so all of my comments are fesh and in comparison to HR 1.18.
Lots of good stuff, but I will only be commenting on what I do not like.
As always everything is just my opinion.

On many maps Tribalism will be stronger than Agrarianism.
I like the idea of starting with something, but in this case it is way too much!
Maybe just one of these two bonuses, in which case I prefer camps.
Maybe instead of these bonuses something reducing the maintenance cost for the first non-capital city. (# of cities maintenance is as if have one fewer city?)

In any case, a hammer bonus for fishing boats and harvest boats is potentially very strong. It might fit with another later civic, but maybe it could instead go in the Tech Tree or be associated with a building such as Shipyard.

Slavery is already significantly stronger than Agrariansim in 1.18.
High upkeep for Slavery would help.
-2 health rather than -1 health would also help.

Industrialism:
The chopping bonus is OK, but not particularly useful as there is not much chopping this late in the game, and the hammers mean relatively less this late in the game.
I am not sure what +1 food from Corporations means, but I assume it means one food in the city for each corporation.
While +1 food is OK, I think hammers as in 1.18 makes more sense.
I like the 1.18 version of Industrialism better than this revised version.

--- LABOUR ---

Tribalism
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Fishing Boats, Harvest Boats
• +1 from Camps

Food from Camps is better, but I'd still remove Camps from Redistribution. Camps and Tribalism will be fairly situational but that's okay. I definitely don't agree with free experience at game start. It makes early rushes easier, and early experience is already available from Barracks.


Agrarianism
Requires Calendar
Medium Upkeep
• +1 from Farm
• +1 from Pasture
• +1 from Water Well

Minor change, attaching the health bonus to the Water Well. I think that's the most sensible and thematically appropriate option, but I'm also fine with leaving it unattached to a building.


Slavery
Requires Masonry
Medium Upkeep
• +1 in all cities
• +1 from Plantation, Quarry
• Can sacrifice population to finish production

No change. I think Slavery's unhealthiness should stay; the unhealthiness of Industrialism can be represented by unhealthiness from buildings, there are no such equivalents for Slavery. I also feel Low upkeep would be far too strong. In general I feel Agrarianism and Slavery are two of the best constrasted and balanced civics in HR, I prefer not to mess with them.


Caste System
Requires Philosophy
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Artists
• Workers build improvements 100% faster
• +1 from Workshop

As suggested.


Industrialism
Requires Assembly Line
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Engineers
• +1 from Corporations
• +50% from chopping

I intended it to be +1, the +2 was a typo.


Social Welfare
Requires Labour Unions
High Upkeep
• +1 from Village, Town
• Can spend to finish production
• No from Corporations

No change.​

 

[Howard Mahler]

Reciprocity:
+20% city defense should be changed to +25% defense in the capital.
As it is, it is too strong for a starting civic, once the civilization has expanded significantly.
In any case, this type of Bonus may fit in a little better with the Military Civics.

Centralism is too strong.
You could substitute a very weak bonus for the wealth bonus or just get rid of it here.
(For example +1 happiness for Palace.)
You could instead substitute a strong bonus for the +1 specialist per city, which does not fit that well with Centralism.
(For example, maybe some reduction maintenance for cities.)

Free Market:
I think the 1.18 version was fine and better than the new version.

Environmentalism is too weak as is.
For me, the science bonus in the capital is not clearly connected to the name.
Maybe a bonus for Fishing Boats and Harvest Boats could be moved here to make Environmentalism stronger.

--- ECONOMY ---

Reciprocity
Low Upkeep
• +8 from Palace
• +20% city defense

Commerce from Palace returns here, as suggested earlier. Defense bonus increased as suggested too.


Redistribution
Requires Record Keeping
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Orchard, Mine
• +1 from Granary

Retains Orchard instead of Camp. I think there'll still be a niche for both.


Professionalism
Requires Artisanry
Medium Upkeep
• +1 trade route in every city
• +1 from Workshop, Watermill, Lumbermill
• +1 from Market

No change.


Centralization
Requires Civil Service
High Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• 1 free specialists per city
• Foreign Corporations have no effect

Capital wealth bonus returns, competing with research at Environmentalism. I agree with Azoth's reasoning in both cases. I think a free specialist is perfect for this civic, fits the theme well and is a more interesting choice. Also, since the specialist wealth and research bonuses are no longer in the category, you're no longer locked out from taking one of those if you want the free specialist.

Points taken about 'Regulation' as a name, but I still feel 'Bureaucracy' suffers similar problems - it's just not 'economic enough'. Nightstar and Jarlaxe Baenre have suggested 'Centralization'; I initially wasn't keen on this as it felt it crossed over with Redistribution too much. However, after some more thought, I realize there are significant distinctions (national vs. local, regulation vs. control, private vs. public, etc) that we can highlight further in the pedia. So I now propose that as the new name.


Free Market
Requires Economics
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Merchants
• +25% from trade routes
• +2 from Corporations

I've opted to drop the trade route bonus a bit further, and lower upkeep as well.


Environmentalism
Requires Ecology
High Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• +2 commerce from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve
• No from Corporations

As suggested. I've reduced the all the capital bonuses to 50%, I'm concerned 100% could get too powerful when paired with National Wonders.​

 

[Howard Mahler]

Clan Warfare is way too weak!
Maybe juggling bonuses with other military civics would help.

Vassalage is too strong.
Get rid of one of the espionage or hammer bonus.
I would get rid of the espionage bonus here and change the fort bonus back to +2 (or +1) happiness for Castle.
(I liked the free maintenance bonus that used to be here.)

Warrior Code seems a little strong.
I would get rid of the happiness bonus for Barracks; at least reduce it to +1.
(Maybe it would work somewhere else.)

--- MILITARY ---

Militia
Low Upkeep
• +100% experience gained from combat within own borders
• +1 from Walls

No change.


Clan Warfare
Requires Riding
Medium Upkeep
• +1 in enemy cities when at war
• +100% from pillaging and capturing cities

Not a fan of Guerilla Warfare as a name or concept, sorry. This civic is meant to represent the endemic warfare of the Celts, the Vikings raiders, the early Mongol's very way of life, and so on. I think there are many more instances of Clan Warfare in history than Guerilla Warfare, and the latter feels more like a tactic than a civic.

I actually tried to implement increased war weariness for enemies prior to the last draft. The only way its possible is to have it affect all other civilizations, not just the ones you're at war with. That's what lead me to the alternative above. Personally I don't mind it being both offensive and defensive in nature, but I'll still look at finding a way to narrow the scope if I can.


Mercenaries
Requires Employment
No Upkeep
• No war weariness
• +1 support cost per military unit
• -50% to upgrade military units

No change.


Vassalage
Requires Land Tenure
Medium Upkeep
• Can draft units each turn
• +25% in all cities
• +2 from Forts

No change. However, this espionage bonus is now duplicated (Vassalage and Fundamentalism) as the equivalent culture one is (Tradition and Pluralism). Both are duplicated in 1.18 though so it's not a big deal.


Warrior Code
Requires Stirrups
Medium Upkeep
• +25% military unit production
• +2 from Barracks
• Short Golden Age with appearance of a Great General

This was indeed the perfect place for this new bonus.


Standing Army
Requires Logistics
High Upkeep
• +100% Great General emergence
• New units receive +4 experience

I feel that if this civic is too powerful then the free experience should be simply reduced to 2 or 3, rather than adding a penalty. I deliberately removed free experience from other civics because they don't weaken Standing Army, they make it even stronger when you take them all together. Standing Army + Fundamentalism + Tribalism + Barracks = units starting with at least 12xp! That's far too much. I think 4xp should be the maximum possible from civics.​

 

[Howard Mahler]

Orthodoxy is way too strong!
I think just the first two bonuses would still be too strong.

--- RELIGION ---

Paganism
Low Upkeep
• +1 in cities with State Religion
• +1 from Cemetery

No change.


Orthodoxy
Requires Divination
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Priests
• Cities with state religion construct buildings 25% faster
• +10% in all cities

Upkeep increased as suggested.


Fundamentalism
Requires Dogma
Medium Upkeep
• No spread of non-state religion
• +25% military unit production in cities with state religion
• +25% in all cities

I prefer to keep the military production bonus here (instead of the experience one) for reasons already covered (too much free xp, militaristic Theocracies). Espionage bonus increased.


Altruism
Requires Ethics
Low Upkeep
• +50% in cities with state religion
• +2 in all cities

Using the standard health mechanic to avoid custom coding, as suggested. Was the espionage penalty just for flavour or for balance too?


Rationalism
Requires Scientific Method
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Scientists
• +10% in all cities
• +2 from School

Another typo, should have been +2 all along.


Pluralism
Requires Humanism
Low Upkeep
• No state religion
• No from non-state religions
• +25% in all cities

Culture bonus increased as suggested, taken from Warrior Code.​

 

[Howard Mahler]

Despotism is way too strong for a starting civic.
Maybe limit the free support to 5 or 10 units, scaling with map size.
In any case, I think free support of units would go better with the military civics.
Something to do with city maintenance would seem to fit better here; something very limited.

Monarchy was already more than strong enough in 1.18.
Does not need the happiness bonus.

Aristocracy:
I do not know what a hammers bonus to trade routes means, as trade routes do not supply hammers.
Sounds too strong at 25%.

Confederation:
I do not know what a food bonus to trade routes means, as trade routes do not supply food.
Sounds too strong at 25%.

Democracy:
Was already strong enough in 1.18 without the +1 science per specialist.

As usual, these changes are getting better with every iteration. Keep the feedback coming all.


--- GOVERNMENT ---

Despotism
Low Upkeep
• No unit support costs

Loses the happiness from Palace to Monarchy, in the interest of not creating too many new sources of happiness. A small replacement bonus would be nice, but not vital.


Monarchy
Requires Property
Medium Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• +50% in capital
• +1 from Palace

As described above.


Theocracy
Requires Priesthood
Low Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• Can build Missionaries without Monasteries
• +2 per city with state religion

I never like the military unit bonus here because Theocracies aren't inherently militaristic - that should be determined by Military and Religious civic choice. This is now the only civic in the category that gives 2 happiness.


Aristocracy
Requires Nobility
Medium Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• +25% from trade routes
• +1 from Castle

Good idea bringing back the food/production from trade routes mechanic, I'd forgotten about it. It's a bit unintuitive but it works and the AI understands it. I'd be very hesitant to have it set higher than 25% though; it's deceptively powerful, especially on larger mapsizes with many landmasses.

Espionage in the capital works here as I don't mean Aristocracy to be decentralized in nature. It's meant to represent senates and oligarchies as well as feudal lords. There's still a capital and a lot of diplomacy, backstabbing, and subterfuge would be going on in it. Even if the capital bonuses get shifted away from this category (more on this later) I still want Aristocracy to have some form of espionage bonus.


Confederation
Requires Guilds
High Upkeep
• +25% from trade routes
• +1 from specialists
• +1 from Harbour

I think wealth from specialists works better here than at Aristocracy, matching the civic's mercantile/colonial theme.


Democracy
Requires Politics
High Upkeep
• +50%
• +1 per specialist
• +1 from Village, Town

Research from specialists shifted here as suggested, to compete with wealth at Confederation.​

 

[Howard Mahler]

Proclamation is way too weak as is.

Authoritarianism is way, way too strong.
Get rid of the unlimited spies and it is probably still the strongest.

Jurisdiction is too strong and would be better without the bonus for Corporations.

Equal Rights is a problem.
The bonus for Golden Ages is nice to have, but is not as useful this late in the game.
In any case, it is a pain in the neck to switch to Equal Rights just before you are going to start a Golden Age. (Assuming it checks your civic when the Golden Age starts.)
Then of course one can switch out of Equal Rights as soon as possible once you are in the Golden Age. (If you have to wait until the last turn of the Golden Age so be it.) This kind of rules crocking seems built in with this mechanic, which in my opinion does not work well with a Civic as opposed to a Trait or a Wonder. Giving a big advantage to players remembering to switch back and forth on Civics is not the type of game I prefer.

--- LEGAL ---

Tradition
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Monument
• +25% in all cities

No change.


Proclamation
Requires Oratory
Low Upkeep
• +3 in largest cities
• +1 per specialist

No change, for now. +50% in capital works well here, I just feel it's needed more at Aristocracy. If we come up with a suitable alternative for Aristocracy (and Theocracy) then I have no problem with switching that bonus to Proclamation (and the culture one to Codification). The domestic great general bonus I'm a bit hesitant to use at all, as it's not all that different from the one at Standing Army and they stack pretty strongly.


Authoritarianism
Requires Law
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Spies
• +1 per military unit stationed in a city

No change here. I don't mind flavour penalties but if we can avoid balance penalties I think we should. I've been doing some research on how the AI chooses civics and it seems that penalties unrelated to aren't taken into consideration at all.


Codification
Requires Constitution
Medium Upkeep
• +100% growth for Cottage, Hamlet, Village
• +2 from Courthouse

No change, for now. As mentioned above, I'm fine with moving the capital culture bonus here if we come up with good alternatives for Aristocracy and Theocracy.


Jurisdiction
Requires Civil Liberties
Medium Upkeep
• No maintenance costs from distance from Palace
• +2 from Civic Square
• +2 from Corporations

Even with the availability of Courthouses and the Seasonal Palace, distance maintenance reduction is still quite strong. It just feels too essential when it's available earlier. In BTS, it's available much later than Courthouses and it's still one of the most popular civic choices (though that's in part due to people's dislike of the corporation system). I think it's a perfect fit at Jurisdiction. I like the Civic Square bonus though and I think it can be justified at Medium Upkeep.


Equal Rights
Requires Civil Rights
Medium Upkeep
• penalty for civs without Equal Rights
• +1 per specialist
• +100% longer Golden Ages

Culture from specialists does work at Jurisdiction but I much prefer it here. Equal rights is all about diversity and giving opportunities to minorities that were denied them in the past. It's not as strong as a free specialist so I think this could remain at Medium upkeep, even at 100% Golden Age length.​

 

[Howard Mahler]

Some info from my latest game as Russia.
Huge Map, Archip.
10 BC

Moscow (Great Lighthouse): 7, 6, 6
St. Pete (Castle): 5, 5, 5, 4
Novosibirsk (most recently founded; I have 22 cities): 3,3,3.

 

[Xyth]

I have not been following the discussion, so all of my comments are fesh and in comparison to HR 1.18.

Always good to have feedback from that perspective.

On many maps Tribalism will be stronger than Agrarianism.
I like the idea of starting with something, but in this case it is way too much!
Maybe just one of these two bonuses, in which case I prefer camps.

The goal with this latest review is to make the starting civics viable choices for more than just the start of the game. They should at least be competitive with the first few civics in each column, at least situationally. Some (like Despotism) are intended to have particular value for a certain playstyle/strategy.

As for Tribalism, I want it to be a viable alternative to Agrarianism and Slavery, depending on your starting location. I may switch the camp bonus back to being commerce instead of food though. Freely buildable food on a low upkeep civic concerns me.

In any case, a hammer bonus for fishing boats and harvest boats is potentially very strong. It might fit with another later civic, but maybe it could instead go in the Tech Tree or be associated with a building such as Shipyard.

I don't think this will be too strong as both improvements require a much larger hammer investment to build (1 workboat each) and are not buildable on any coast or ocean tile, just those with resources on them. Tribalism will be a more attractive civic for coastal/tundra civs than Agrarianism is, but that's intended.

Slavery is already significantly stronger than Agrariansim in 1.18.
High upkeep for Slavery would help.
-2 health rather than -1 health would also help.

Hehe, I regularly get feedback that Slavery is stronger, but also that Agrarianism is the stronger one. This is a good sign that they're well balanced for different playstyles

Industrialism:
The chopping bonus is OK, but not particularly useful as there is not much chopping this late in the game, and the hammers mean relatively less this late in the game.

It's mostly a flavour bonus, the other bonuses are the core of the civic.

I am not sure what +1 food from Corporations means, but I assume it means one food in the city for each corporation.

Correct.

While +1 food is OK, I think hammers as in 1.18 makes more sense.
I like the 1.18 version of Industrialism better than this revised version.

The thinking is that Industrialization lead to massive urbanization and increase in city size in history, and that the civic already has a strong production focus from the engineers. I could see reverting it to production, Free Market to commerce, the food version elsewhere though.

Reciprocity:
+20% city defense should be changed to +25% defense in the capital.
As it is, it is too strong for a starting civic, once the civilization has expanded significantly.
In any case, this type of Bonus may fit in a little better with the Military Civics.

I think 20% was suggested because it's equivalent to one culture level of defense, which seems appropriate. Reciprocity encourages strong social ties and obligations. I deliberately want this bonus out of the Military category as it's intended to reduce the effectiveness of early rushes, alongside Militia.

Centralism is too strong.
You could substitute a very weak bonus for the wealth bonus or just get rid of it here.
(For example +1 happiness for Palace.)
You could instead substitute a strong bonus for the +1 specialist per city, which does not fit that well with Centralism.

No foreign corporations is actually somewhat of a penalty with HR's new corporation mechanics so I think it balances out, along with high upkeep. So I think it's fine when compared to the later civics in the category. Is it too powerful compared to Professionalism though?

(For example, maybe some reduction maintenance for cities.)

I'm deliberately avoiding maintenance reduction from civics unlocked earlier than Courthouses. It's just too essential a mechanic otherwise and allows significant expansion too early. However, I'm considering splitting part of the Courthouse's effect into an earlier building so that things ramp up more gradually.

Free Market:
I think the 1.18 version was fine and better than the new version.

I don't consider 50% too powerful but I do feel the civic should be medium upkeep.

Environmentalism is too weak as is.
For me, the science bonus in the capital is not clearly connected to the name.
Maybe a bonus for Fishing Boats and Harvest Boats could be moved here to make Environmentalism stronger.

I'm going to lower it's upkeep to medium. Science is appropriate as Environmentalism encourages efficiency and new approaches to industrial, economic, and social management.

Clan Warfare is way too weak!
Maybe juggling bonuses with other military civics would help.

I originally had it at 2 in enemy cities, but I'm still looking at how I can refine this new mechanic.

Vassalage is too strong.
Get rid of one of the espionage or hammer bonus.
I would get rid of the espionage bonus here and change the fort bonus back to +2 (or +1) happiness for Castle.

Forts aren't built very often so that's largely a flavour bonus. What makes this civic so strong? Drafting was at low upkeep in 1.18, here's it's at medium upkeep.

(I liked the free maintenance bonus that used to be here.)

It's moved to Despotism.

Warrior Code seems a little strong.
I would get rid of the happiness bonus for Barracks; at least reduce it to +1.
(Maybe it would work somewhere else.)

I don't have any issue lowering it to 1.

Orthodoxy is way too strong!
I think just the first two bonuses would still be too strong.

Orthodoxy was meant to be High Upkeep, I've corrected that in my earlier post.

Despotism is way too strong for a starting civic.
Maybe limit the free support to 5 or 10 units, scaling with map size.
In any case, I think free support of units would go better with the military civics.

I'm still working out how the unit upkeep reduction will work exactly. I might tie it to population, so that your city size determines how many units you can support for free (1:1 ratio). That would be easier to understand than the current mechanics, and wouldn't get too out of hand. I want Despotism to be a viable but situational choice throughout much of the game.

Monarchy was already more than strong enough in 1.18.
Does not need the happiness bonus.

That bonus replaces the bonus inherent to the Palace.

Aristocracy:
I do not know what a hammers bonus to trade routes means, as trade routes do not supply hammers.
Sounds too strong at 25%.

For every 4 a single trade route produces you'll also get 1.

Confederation:
I do not know what a food bonus to trade routes means, as trade routes do not supply food.
Sounds too strong at 25%.

Same as above, just with food. % not finalized yet, considering 20% (5:1).

Democracy:
Was already strong enough in 1.18 without the +1 science per specialist.

Has also increased to high upkeep.

Proclamation is way too weak as is.

It needs something else, yes.

Authoritarianism is way, way too strong.
Get rid of the unlimited spies and it is probably still the strongest.

Depends on your strategy. It's strong but I definitely wouldn't consider it stronger than Jurisdiction. I'm not against bringing back the GPP penalty though, it's the only penalty we've tried or proposed that I like.

Equal Rights is a problem.
The bonus for Golden Ages is nice to have, but is not as useful this late in the game.
In any case, it is a pain in the neck to switch to Equal Rights just before you are going to start a Golden Age. (Assuming it checks your civic when the Golden Age starts.)
Then of course one can switch out of Equal Rights as soon as possible once you are in the Golden Age. (If you have to wait until the last turn of the Golden Age so be it.) This kind of rules crocking seems built in with this mechanic, which in my opinion does not work well with a Civic as opposed to a Trait or a Wonder. Giving a big advantage to players remembering to switch back and forth on Civics is not the type of game I prefer.

Golden Ages are more powerful later in the game than earlier. Also, Don't forget that switching out of Equal Rights can potentially cause a fair bit of unhappiness in your cities if other civs have adopted it. I'm thinking of increasing this effect a bit too. But that's my thinking with this civic; you can switch in and out of it as it suits you but the cost of doing so gets higher and higher the more civs adopt it (which they often do thanks to the UN).

I'm considering "Short Golden Age when Great People are born" as a replacement. More Golden Ages rather than longer ones, makes switching in and out much less practical.

 

[Howard Mahler]

"The goal with this latest review is to make the starting civics viable choices for more than just the start of the game. They should at least be competitive with the first few civics in each column, at least situationally. Some (like Despotism) are intended to have particular value for a certain playstyle/strategy.
As for Tribalism, I want it to be a viable alternative to Agrarianism and Slavery, depending on your starting location. I may switch the camp bonus back to being commerce instead of food though. Freely buildable food on a low upkeep civic concerns me."

This represents a fundamental change to the early game, and I believe a mistake.
(Anyone can skip the early game using the advanced start option.)

On an arbitrary scale of 0 to 10, in BTS the starting civics are 0 and the first real civic is perhaps 6 or 7. I think one could have the starting civic be a 2 or 3, but not a 6 or 7.

There are (at least) two aspects to Civ: game playing and historical simulation.

From the game playing standpoint, currently a key aspect of the early game is the race to get real civics. This results in: goals, tradeoffs, decisions, anticipation, and rewards.

Under the proposed revision, while it may be slightly better to be able to switch to a different civic than you start with, it would not be a big improvement. Rather if you get a tech while pursuing your other goals, and it happens to allow a new civic, the player will spend a moment or two deciding whether the cost of anarchy is worth switching out of the starting civic. Switching may lead to a slight improvement, but will not be a big deal. In the early game, Civics will be largely removed from the list of very important considerations for the player.

Also the early game will be much easier for both the player and the AI.
I suspect this is not a good thing, but am not sure.

From an historical simulation standpoint, the proposed change is also a mistake.

In the early game you start with basically nothing. You need to found your first city.
You may have to research very basic things like hunting or fishing, which were known well prior to 4000 B.C. Your only military unit type is a warrior.
This early game currently represents the transition from a pre-civilized state up to a small empire with a few cities.

There were important organizational changes required to be able to manage a single city let alone an empire with more than one city. This is what is represented currently by getting your first non-starting civics. You will be eliminating this climb into civilization from an uncivilized state.

As always this is your mod. Do what you think is best. No reason to reply to this post.

 

[Xyth]

This represents a fundamental change to the early game, and I believe a mistake.
(Anyone can skip the early game using the advanced start option.)

On an arbitrary scale of 0 to 10, in BTS the starting civics are 0 and the first real civic is perhaps 6 or 7. I think one could have the starting civic be a 2 or 3, but not a 6 or 7.

There are (at least) two aspects to Civ: game playing and historical simulation.

From the game playing standpoint, currently a key aspect of the early game is the race to get real civics. This results in: goals, tradeoffs, decisions, anticipation, and rewards.

Under the proposed revision, while it may be slightly better to be able to switch to a different civic than you start with, it would not be a big improvement. Rather if you get a tech while pursuing your other goals, and it happens to allow a new civic, the player will spend a moment or two deciding whether the cost of anarchy is worth switching out of the starting civic. Switching may lead to a slight improvement, but will not be a big deal. In the early game, Civics will be largely removed from the list of very important considerations for the player.

Also the early game will be much easier for both the player and the AI.
I suspect this is not a good thing, but am not sure.

It's a valid concern but I think we can achieve interesting starting civics that are valuable beyond just the start of the game - without making the early game too easy or devaluing early decision making or reward. I don't claim that we're there yet, but we're getting closer with each draft.

One way of doing this is by giving the starting civics aspects of the game that you get for free anyway. The +8 commerce at Redistribution is an example of this. That's not a new bonus, because it replaces the same bonus from the palace. Another example (under consideration) is lowering the base happiness you get in every city from 4 to 2 - made up for by the extra happiness from Tradition, Militia and Paganism (minus the bonus from the Palace). This is actually beneficial to the game overall; with a little construction (of buildings you're likely to build early anyway) you get the same happiness that you would under the current system, but some of that happiness goes away when you switch away from the starting civics. You're expected to find alternate sources from other civics, resources, etc.

Another method is to give bonuses that are situational or help address early game imbalances. I've already mentioned the goal of reducing the effectiveness of early rushes, via Reciprocity and Militia. My goal for Tribalism is similar; make Tundra and island starts a bit more balanced. I will be dropping the food component of Camps btw, they'll give commerce instead.

Finally, the other way to do it is by giving bonuses that aren't all that strong at the start of the game. Despotism doesn't give much advantage in the early game when unit upkeep is very low (and early rushes are deterred by other factors). You'll still want to switch to Monarchy as soon as its available, it gives much greater economic advantages that early.

So, to categorise each of the starting civic bonuses as I currently have them:


Bonuses replacing other free bonuses

• Tradition: +1 from Monument
• Reciprocity: +8 from Palace
• Militia: +1 from Walls
• Paganism: +1 from Cemetery​

Bonuses intended to discourage early rushes

• Militia: +100% experience gained from combat within own borders
• Reciprocity: +20% city defence​

Situational/geographical bonuses

• Tribalism: +1 from Fishing Boats, Harvest Boats
• Tribalism: +1:commerce from Camps​

Bonuses more useful later in the game

• Despotism: Number of units with free upkeep is equal to population*​

Other bonuses

• Tradition: +25% culture
• Paganism: +1 from State Religion​

To restate, these still need some work to get right, but hopefully the above listing puts it in perspective a bit better.


*Anyone got any suggestions how to word this particular bonus better?

From an historical simulation standpoint, the proposed change is also a mistake.

In the early game you start with basically nothing. You need to found your first city.
You may have to research very basic things like hunting or fishing, which were known well prior to 4000 B.C. Your only military unit type is a warrior.
This early game currently represents the transition from a pre-civilized state up to a small empire with a few cities.

There were important organizational changes required to be able to manage a single city let alone an empire with more than one city. This is what is represented currently by getting your first non-starting civics. You will be eliminating this climb into civilization from an uncivilized state.

Humankind had complex social and economic structures prior to the emergence of the city. With the exception of Despotism, I think the names/themes of the starting civics represent this pretty accurately and I've tried to make the bonuses of each fit their theme as well. The non-starting civics should still be superior to the starting ones, just not in all situations.

I think there are many examples of this in history too. For example, the Arabs made use of tribal labour for much of their history, Native American and Pacific civilizations maintained complex gift economies until European contact, and quite a few civilizations can be described by Tradition, Militia, and Paganism, even in today's urbanized world. Yet these are all 'civics' that long predate the emergence of the city. They're not necessarily the most practical way to run a city or a civilization but I think its reasonable, in terms of both history and gameplay, to have them available and useful situationally. I don't this change eliminates the climb into civilization, if anything it represents it a bit more accurately.

 

[Eucalyptus]

• Despotism: Number of units with free upkeep is equal to population*​

*Anyone got any suggestions how to word this particular bonus better?

• Despotism: One unit with free upkeep per unit of population​

 

[Xyth]

--- GOVERNMENT ---

Despotism
Low Upkeep
• +100% units with free upkeep
• +1 from Barracks

Toned down the unit upkeep bonus from previous drafts, though it's still stronger than Vasalage in 1.18. I've adjusted the actual unit upkeep mechanics a little to make this doubling and clearer description possible.

Since there are now 4 starting civics with a happiness bonus, I'm reducing the free happiness that all cities get by 2 to keep early happiness at the same levels as before. You just have to construct a couple buildings first, and you don't get to keep it once you move on to other civics.


Monarchy
Requires Property
Medium Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• +50% in capital

Back to how it is in 1.18, decided not to use the +1 from Palace at all.


Theocracy
Requires Divination
Medium Upkeep
• Can build Missionaries without Monasteries
• +2 per city with state religion
• +50% in capital

Now unlocks at Divination instead of Priesthood, swapping with Orthodoxy. Made more sense with these rearranged bonuses.


Aristocracy
Requires Nobility
Medium Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• +25% from trade routes

Happiness bonus dropped to keep it a bit more in line with the other Medium upkeep options.


Confederation
Requires Guilds
High Upkeep
• +25% from trade routes
• +1 from specialists
• +1 from Harbour

No change since last draft.


Democracy
Requires Politics
High Upkeep
• +50%
• +1 per specialist
• +1 from Village, Town

No change since last draft.​

--- LEGAL ---

Tradition
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Monument
• +25% in all cities

No change.


Proclamation
Requires Oratory
Low Upkeep
• +3 in largest cities
• -25% maintenance from number of cities

Now provides some modest cost savings for the early game.


Authoritarianism
Requires Law
Low Upkeep
• Unlimited Spies
• +1 per military unit stationed in a city
• +1 upkeep cost per military unit

Big change here; happiness from units now comes with a price, literally. Creates strong synergy with Despotism. I've dropped the civic upkeep all the way to low, but I'm still thinking this through.


Codification
Requires Constitution
Medium Upkeep
• +100% growth for Cottage, Hamlet, Village
• +2 from Courthouse
• +2 from Civic Square

Picks up the health bonus formerly at Jurisdiction. The idea here is that Codification is a good civic for vertical growth, while Jurisdiction is a good civic for horizontal growth.


Jurisdiction
Requires Civil Liberties
Medium Upkeep
• No maintenance costs from distance from Palace
• +1 per Specialist

Specialist espionage bonus is a much better fit here than it was at Proclamation. Since the distance maintenance bonus is now available a lot later than it is in 1.18, I've decided to make the Seasonal Palace available earlier. It will require Castles (late Classical) instead of Courthouses (late Medieval) to build. Feels more historical and reduces clumping of maintenance reduction mechanics.


Equal Rights
Requires Civil Rights
Medium Upkeep
• penalty for civs without Equal Rights
• +1 per specialist
• Short Golden Age when Great People born

Changed the golden age bonus to something a bit more unique but it may change again as I'm not completely happy with it.​

 

[Xyth]

--- LABOUR ---

Tribalism
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Fishing Boats
• +1 from Camps, Harvest Boats

Same improvements but reassigned yields. Feels much more balanced in my testing.


Agrarianism
Requires Calendar
Medium Upkeep
• +1 from Farm
• +1 from Pasture
• +1 from Water Well

No change since last draft.


Slavery
Requires Masonry
Medium Upkeep
• +1 in all cities
• +1 from Plantation, Quarry
• Can sacrifice population to finish production

No change.


Caste System
Requires Philosophy
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Artists
• Workers build improvements 100% faster
• +1 from Workshop

No change since last draft.


Industrialism
Requires Assembly Line
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Engineers
• +2 from Corporations
• +50% from chopping

Corporation bonus reverts to production. Food made some sense but just didn't feel right.


Social Welfare
Requires Labour Unions
High Upkeep
• +1 from Village, Town
• Can spend to finish production
• No from Corporations

No change.​

--- ECONOMY ---

Reciprocity
Low Upkeep
• +8 from Palace
• +20% city defense

No change since last draft.


Redistribution
Requires Record Keeping
Low Upkeep
• +1 from Orchard, Mine
• +1 from Granary

No change since last draft.


Professionalism
Requires Artisanry
Medium Upkeep
• +1 trade route in every city
• +1 from Workshop, Watermill, Lumbermill
• +1 from Market

No change since last draft.


Centralization
Requires Civil Service
High Upkeep
• 1 free specialists per city
• Foreign Corporations have no effect
• +50% in capital

No change since last draft.


Free Market
Requires Economics
Medium Upkeep
• Unlimited Merchants
• +50% from trade routes
• +2 from Corporations

Trade route bonus reverts to 50%, but upkeep remains at medium. Corporation bonus reverts to commerce. Industrialism and Free Market are two civics I don't mind being being single-focused, indeed it felt almost wrong for them not to be.


Environmentalism
Requires Ecology
Medium Upkeep
• +50% in capital
• +2 commerce from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve
• No from Corporations

Upkeep lowered to medium.​

 

[Xyth]

--- MILITARY ---

Militia
Low Upkeep
• +100% experience gained from combat within own borders
• +1 from Walls

No change since last draft.


Clan Warfare
Requires Riding
Low Upkeep
• +2 in enemy cities when at war
• +100% from pillaging and capturing cities

Upkeep reduced, and enemy city penalty reverted back to 2. The AI won't adopt this civic unless it is defined as their favourite but I'm fine with that. Makes playing against certain leaders quite flavourful!


Mercenaries
Requires Employment
Medium Upkeep
• No war weariness
• -50% to upgrade military units

The AI was struggling to understand the previous incarnation, often adopting it permanently or not at all. This incarnation is a little less interesting but it did free up the increased upkeep mechanic for Authoritarianism.


Vassalage
Requires Land Tenure
Medium Upkeep
• Can draft units each turn
• +25% in all cities

Fort bonus moved to Standing Army where it makes much more sense. The espionage bonus is no longer replicated.


Warrior Code
Requires Stirrups
High Upkeep
• +25% military unit production
• +2 from Castle
• Short Golden Age with appearance of a Great General

Happiness now from Castles, as the Barracks bonus moved to Despotism. Upkeep raised to high.


Standing Army
Requires Logistics
High Upkeep
• +100% Great General emergence
• New units receive +2 experience
• +2 from Forts

Experience bonus lowered, production from Forts added.​

--- RELIGION ---

Paganism
Low Upkeep
• +1 in cities with State Religion
• +1 from Cemetery

No change since last draft.


Orthodoxy
Requires Priesthood
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Priests
• Cities with state religion construct buildings 25% faster
• +10% in all cities

Now unlocked at Priesthood, as described earlier.


Fundamentalism
Requires Dogma
Medium Upkeep
• No spread of non-state religion
• +2 experience in cities with state religion

The change to Standing Army freed allowed Fundamentalism to revert to an experience bonus. Espionage bonus no longer needed as a result.


Altruism
Requires Ethics
Low Upkeep
• +50% in cities with state religion
• +2 in all cities

No change since last draft.


Rationalism
Requires Scientific Method
High Upkeep
• Unlimited Scientists
• +10% in all cities
• +2 from School

No change since last draft.


Pluralism
Requires Humanism
Low Upkeep
• No state religion
• No from non-state religions
• +25% in all cities

No change since last draft.​

 

[Keinpferd]

Militia
Low Upkeep
• +100% experience gained from combat within own borders
• +1 from Walls

I generally like the idea, that the initial civics "do something" and aren't necessarily devaluated by the following more advanced civic. The above is a good example.

Mercenaries
Requires Employment
Medium Upkeep
• No war weariness
• -50% to upgrade military units

I'm missing some element here to express the skilledness of a mercenary army in comparison to a citizen army of amateurs, as has become apparent in the struggle of the Carthagenians and Romans.

To a degree, war weariness may be depending on whether the army consists of hired personell – or friends, sons and nephews. But the fear of losing a war, the risk of suffering financially through raised taxes, or the Civ IV sentiment "we don't approve that we're fighting our brothres in faith" stays in both cases the same.

Paganism
Low Upkeep
• +1 in cities with State Religion

That's also a simple thought, but I imagine it working very well.

Pluralism
Requires Humanism
Low Upkeep
• No state religion
• No from non-state religions
• +25% in all cities

Why was the positive effect of the presence of different religions removed? Was that too strong? Or am I remembering the + from other religions from a different mod?

 

[Nightstar]

Since there are now 4 starting civics with a happiness bonus, I'm reducing the free happiness that all cities get by 2 to keep early happiness at the same levels as before. You just have to construct a couple buildings first, and you don't get to keep it once you move on to other civics.

This is true for the Barracks, Monument, and Cemetery (all available either from the start or after researching a single cheap tech), but not so much for Walls, which don't come in until Construction, a third column Ancient tech with 9 prerequisites. It can actually take a while to get, especially if you're playing a peaceful start and concentrating on the lower part of the tech tree.

Fundamentalism
Requires Dogma
Medium Upkeep
• No spread of non-state religion
• +2 experience in cities with state religion

I still think there should be a synergy with Inquisitors for this one. Either "Can train Inquisitors without Holy Office" or perhaps "+100% production of Holy Office and/or Inquisitors". The additional bonus could be balanced with a penalty of doubled from non-state religions (which the Inquisitor bonus helps to more easily "correct").

Why was the positive effect of the presence of different religions removed? Was that too strong? Or am I remembering the + from other religions from a different mod?

Mechanics change: in 1.19 each non-state religion in a city will now cause +1, so the anger elimination has the same effect as +1. It's just another way of saying the same thing, but with less chance of being misunderstood.

 

[Xyth]

I generally like the idea, that the initial civics "do something" and aren't necessarily devaluated by the following more advanced civic. The above is a good example.

That's the goal, though some will hopefully be useful situationally as well.

I'm missing some element here to express the skilledness of a mercenary army in comparison to a citizen army of amateurs, as has become apparent in the struggle of the Carthagenians and Romans.

To a degree, war weariness may be depending on whether the army consists of hired personell – or friends, sons and nephews. But the fear of losing a war, the risk of suffering financially through raised taxes, or the Civ IV sentiment "we don't approve that we're fighting our brothres in faith" stays in both cases the same.

Yeah, it is missing something. Ideally I'd lower the war weariness reduction to 50% and add a third bonus in but I'm not sure what. I'm trying to avoid repeating bonuses as much as possible.

Why was the positive effect of the presence of different religions removed? Was that too strong? Or am I remembering the + from other religions from a different mod?

Mechanics change: in 1.19 each non-state religion in a city will now cause +1, so the anger elimination has the same effect as +1. It's just another way of saying the same thing, but with less chance of being misunderstood.

Nightstar summarises this change correctly.

This is true for the Barracks, Monument, and Cemetery (all available either from the start or after researching a single cheap tech), but not so much for Walls, which don't come in until Construction, a third column Ancient tech with 9 prerequisites. It can actually take a while to get, especially if you're playing a peaceful start and concentrating on the lower part of the tech tree.

True, but I don't think it'll be a problem.

I still think there should be a synergy with Inquisitors for this one. Either "Can train Inquisitors without Holy Office" or perhaps "+100% production of Holy Office and/or Inquisitors". The additional bonus could be balanced with a penalty of doubled from non-state religions (which the Inquisitor bonus helps to more easily "correct").

I need to review Inquisition mechanics before considering such an addition but I agree there should be some connection. In many ways I'd like to get rid of the Holy Office altogether and make the Inquisitor available only when you're running Fundamentalism. I'm not yet sure how feasible that is though, technically.

 

[Jarlaxe Baenre]

I need to review Inquisition mechanics before considering such an addition but I agree there should be some connection. In many ways I'd like to get rid of the Holy Office altogether and make the Inquisitor available only when you're running Fundamentalism. I'm not yet sure how feasible that is though, technically.

Can you make a building appear when you switch to fundamentalism, and disappear when it leaves? Is there an python check when you adopt new civics? That could enable you to create an invisible building like the trait ones which would give you inquisitors.