Feedback: Civics

[Nightstar]

Looks excellent at first glance!

 

[Xyth]

Reciprocity
Low Upkeep
Low Dissent
• +1 commerce from Orchard, Fishing Boats
• +1 health from Granary

Similar to what Redistribution was in 1.23, works much better as the initial civic.



Redistribution
Medium Upkeep
Medium Dissent
• +50% trade route yield as food
• No foreign trade routes

As mentioned earlier in this thread, I'm trying something quite different with this civic. This much free food is very powerful, so it needs to come with a reasonably hefty limitation/penalty. I think this pairing of effects suits the theme of the civic really well. I decided to drop the capital wealth bonus I proposed earlier, as it synergized too well too early. Rather than replacing it with something else, I thought it best to keep it simple and avoid raising upkeep or dissent any higher.



Merchant Trade
Medium Upkeep
Medium Dissent
• +50% wealth in capital
• +1 trade route in all cities

Regulated Trade rethought and available earlier (late classical or thereabouts, tech still being determined). Represents the rise of the merchant middle class and long distance trade, but also of the tax and tariffs imposed on them. No longer affects foreign corporations because in 1.24 corporations can be owned by multiple civilizations.



Central Planning
High Upkeep
Medium Dissent
• +50% research in capital
• +1 free specialist in all cities
• Corporations and Syndicates have no effect

Dropped the improvement bonuses and brought back the free specialist from earlier versions. Does mean duplicating a bonus (Equality has free specialist too), but I think this works better overall.



Free Market
Low Upkeep
High Dissent
• Unlimited Merchants
• +50% trade route yield as commerce
• +50% chance to attract Commerce Corporations

Corporation bonus has changed to suit the new corporation spread system in 1.24. Like Industrialism with production-focused corporations, with Free Market commerce-focuses corporations are much more likely to move to and remain in your cities. This change makes both these civics more powerful and useful, their old corporations bonus were fairly minor.



Sustainability
High Upkeep
Low Dissent
• No unhealthiness from city population
• +1 commerce from Windmill, Nature Reserve, Marine Reserve
• No unhealthiness from Corporations

Unchanged for now. Will probably re-examine after I've reviewed/expanded the climate mechanic (not in 1.24). It's been suggested a number of times, but I want to reiterate that I have no intention of removing this civic in favour of something else.

 

[Xyth]

Way back in the early days of History Rewritten, there was a civic effect that made training military units use food, like Settlers and Workers. Some other mods have it, notably the Chinese Unification scenario from Warlords. I completely forgot about it and am now wondering if I should bring it back.

It would go in either the Military or Society category, and I'm actually quite tempted to add it to one of the starting civics there. Has a number of balance implications wherever I put it, so I'd like to hear if anyone has any thoughts on it.

Also, still working on the details, but I'm (probably) reworking the Military category in 1.24 to look like this:

• Militia
• Mercenaries
• Warrior Class
• Vassalage
• Conscription
• Standing Army​

 

[Nightstar]

I think it could be made to work with either Vassalage (feudal levies) or Conscription (replacing the current drafting mechanic). On balance, I'd favor the latter, as I'm not fond of the draft mechanic in its present form. But that could just be me.

 

[Leoreth]

I think it could be made to work with either Vassalage (feudal levies) or Conscription (replacing the current drafting mechanic). On balance, I'd favor the latter, as I'm not fond of the draft mechanic in its present form. But that could just be me.

I'm doing it in a similar way. Medieval civics already encourage farms, so I think food to units is most appropriate here, as opposed to the draft mechanic.

 

[Xyth]

Chiefdom
Low Upkeep
Medium Dissent
• +100% units with free upkeep
• +1 happiness from Palace

Reverting to an older version. The food bonus that was here was an attempt to make Chiefdom competitive with Monarchy, but it just didn't feel right. Solved the issue another way...



Monarchy
Medium Upkeep
Medium Dissent
• +50% production in capital
• +1 happiness from Barracks, Castle

... by splitting Monarchy's capital bonuses into different civics. Bit of a shame, but it was proving hard to balance the Government category without doing so.



Theocracy
Medium Upkeep
Low Dissent
• +50% culture in capital
• +2 happiness per city with state religion
• Can train Missionaries without Monasteries

The same, just with a bit less culture. I've lowered all the +100% commerce modifiers to 50%.



Aristocracy
Medium Upkeep
Medium Dissent
• +50% commerce in capital
• +2 wealth per specialist

Aristocracy has been the weakest civic in the category for quite some time. This should make it a much more viable option.



Confederation
Low Upkeep
High Dissent
• +50% espionage in capital
• No maintenance from distance to capital

Decided that 50% maintenance reduction wasn't enough to warrant the high dissent. Scrapped the Harbour bonus, already plenty of happiness options about. Second bonus for this civic has only ever really been for flavour, so I think the weakest of all the espionage bonuses fits here much better than it did in Aristocracy.



Democracy
High Upkeep
Low Dissent
• +100% Great Person emergence
• +2 research per specialist

The same, but better.

 

[Xyth]

Militia
Low Upkeep
Low Dissent
• +100% experience from combat in own borders
• +1 happiness from Walls

No problems, no changes.



Mercenaries
Low Upkeep
Medium Dissent
• No war weariness
• +1 support cost per military unit

A simplified version of this civic that the AI will understand better. The previous version had two custom effects, both of which I'm scrapping entirely. The discounted upgrade bonus is already available as a trait anyway, and works much better as such.



Warrior Class
Medium Upkeep
Medium Dissent
• +25% military unit production
• +25% culture in all cities

Clan Warfare is gone. I decided it's role was partially covered by Tribalism (that's where the pillage/capture bonus has moved to) and what wasn't could be merged into a renamed Warrior Code. I may shift it earlier in the tech tree, undecided.



Vassalage
Low Upkeep
High Dissent
• Military Units are produced with food
• -50% maintenance from number of cities

A complete redesign.



Conscription
Medium Upkeep
Medium Dissent
• Can draft units each turn
• +25% espionage in all cities

I agree that it fit weird to have to adopt Vassalage in order to conscript, so I've brought back a dedicated Conscription civic. Haven't decided what tech will unlock it yet, but it won't be until the Medieval or Renaissance era. Earlier conscription is almost always a levy, and I think this is covered well enough by Militia or Vassalage.



Standing Army
High Upkeep
Medium Dissent
• +100% Great General emergence
• +2 experience for new military units

I didn't feel any changes were needed here.

 

[Nightstar]

Any changes to the Society civics? We've seen new versions of the rest, but those almost seem conspicuous by their absence.

 

[Xyth]

Any changes to the Society civics? We've seen new versions of the rest, but those almost seem conspicuous by their absence.

Lots of changes, but I've not posted them as I haven't finalized what I'm doing with Estate System yet. Similar situation with Restitution, but there are minimal other changes in the Law category. Working on other tasks for a while.

 

[lindsay40k]

Hmm. What's the rationale behind the Warrior Class Culture boost?

 

[Xyth]

Hmm. What's the rationale behind the Warrior Class Culture boost?

It's thematic and it's good to have a non-military bonus to complement one of the stronger military bonuses in the category.

 

[Xyth]

Tradition
Low Upkeep
Low Dissent
• +25% culture in all cities
• +1 happiness from Monument

Tradition preserved without change, appropriately.



Retribution
Low Upkeep
Medium Dissent
• +25% espionage in all cities
• +2 happiness from Jail
• -50% chance to attract Syndicates

Upkeep and Dissent ratings swapped. Note that the espionage bonus is much more useful in 1.24 since espionage also reduces dissent. Also lowers the chance of Syndicates setting up in your cities, keeping it relevant in the later eras.



Restitution
High Upkeep
Low Dissent
• +50% Great Person emergence
• +2 health in all cities

Upkeep increased, dissent lowered. I'm not entirely happy about having a second Great Person bonus here (Democracy is the other one), but it's thematic and I've used everything else. I'm avoiding custom civic effects in 1.24 so I can use AI weighting to help the AI evaluate dissent ratings instead.



Authoritarianism
Medium Upkeep
High Dissent
• Unlimited Spies
• +1 happiness per military unit stationed in city

Upkeep lowered, dissent raised. Will still be a useful civic for lowering dissent, but now requires more units and spies to be effective, especially if you've over expanded.



Liberty
Medium Upkeep
Medium Dissent
• Unlimited Scientists
• +1 commerce from Village, Town

No changes.


Equality
High Upkeep
Medium Dissent
• +1 free specialist per city
• Unhappiness in civilizations without Equality

No changes.

 

[Xyth]

Tribalism
Low Upkeep
Medium Dissent
• +100% wealth from pillaging and capturing cities
• +20% city defense

Picks up the pillaging/raiding role from the now-removed Clan Warfare.



Caste System
Medium Upkeep
High Dissent
• +25% food in capital
• +100% faster building of Improvements

A complete redesign as we don't need religious bonuses for Civics as well as Tenets (except for Theocracy).



Citizenship
Medium Upkeep
Medium Dissent
• +3 happiness in largest cities
• +100% growth of Cottage, Hamlet, Village

No longer reduces maintenance, speeds growth of Cottages instead.



Estate System
Low Upkeep
High Dissent
• +1 food from Farm, Fort
• +2 espionage per specialist

Another complete redesign, religious bonus gone. I liked the concept of forts as feudal estates, but requiring multiple civics to achieve it was annoying - too weak with just one, too strong with both. With this change it's more of a thematic bonus alongside more powerful farms, rather than an economy option in its own right.



Nationalism
Medium Upkeep
Low Dissent
• +1 production from Village, Town
• +2 culture per specialist
• No culture spread via trade routes

Lowered upkeep, specialists grant +2 culture instead of +1 espionage.



Multiculturalism
High Upkeep
Med Dissent
• +1 food from Village, Town
• +50% trade route yield as production
• No dissent from foreign culture in cities

Strengthened since it comes so late in the game. Trade route production repurposed to represent immigration (instead of the slave trade). No dissent from foreign culture will be more useful in 1.24 because a player's culture is now converted to barbarian culture when they are defeated, instead of being removed.

 

[saddam_who_sane]

Hello, Xyth! I love new civics system, at first it seemed strange, but as I tried many settings I realized that now game process makes a lot more sense than earlier. Let me share my humble thoughts about some civics that seem to me a little weak.

1.Redistribution
Recent changes in tech and civics made food less valuable than before. And I'm in favor of these changes, because it makes player focus more on commerce and production management, it becomes more complex and interesting. But it seems to me that in most cases Redistribution civic is less valuable than any other civic. May be it would be cool to add some new option to this civic? For example:
- Player can relocate Great People from cities

2.Authoritarianism
I like that number of units now is limited by population. It eliminates one of the main flaws of vanilla Civ4, though AI seems to use this limit irrationally. But this thing makes Authoritarianism civics a little weaker. May be it would be a great idea to add a new option to the civic too:
- Player can orchestrate Political Purges ( - 1 population, temporarily +3 unhappiness, - 300 dissent)

What do you think? Do my ideas make sense for the gameplay?

 

[Xyth]

Hello, Xyth! I love new civics system, at first it seemed strange, but as I tried many settings I realized that now game process makes a lot more sense than earlier. Let me share my humble thoughts about some civics that seem to me a little weak.

1.Redistribution
Recent changes in tech and civics made food less valuable than before. And I'm in favor of these changes, because it makes player focus more on commerce and production management, it becomes more complex and interesting. But it seems to me that in most cases Redistribution civic is less valuable than any other civic. May be it would be cool to add some new option to this civic? For example:
- Player can relocate Great People from cities

2.Authoritarianism
I like that number of units now is limited by population. It eliminates one of the main flaws of vanilla Civ4, though AI seems to use this limit irrationally. But this thing makes Authoritarianism civics a little weaker. May be it would be a great idea to add a new option to the civic too:
- Player can orchestrate Political Purges ( - 1 population, temporarily +3 unhappiness, - 300 dissent)

What do you think? Do my ideas make sense for the gameplay?

They're interesting ideas but unfortunately not feasible from a technical point of view. Adding custom effects to civics is tricky because the AI does not understand their value, especially 'active' effects like these. You raise valid points about these two civics though. I hadn't considered the population limit on Authoritarianism (which won't apply on Mac). For now I'll have to address them by adjusting upkeep and dissent ratings.

 

[Ekwallace]

Overall I love the civics options in this game, although I agree with making Authoritarianism a bit weaker than it was in 1.24.0 (what I'm currently playing; when I have a big empire I rarely consider any other legal civic).

Would you ever consider creating additional civic categories in a future major update? I'm not a modder myself, but if anyone wanted to do so I think the following categories could be fun:

EDUCATION

Mentorship: Starting civic, low upkeep, medium dissent, +2 research from Theater, +1 culture from specialists

Monasticism: Requires Theology, medium upkeep, low dissent, science buildings provide +1 faith, 1 less temple required to construct monastary

Apprenticeship: Requires Education, low upkeep, medium dissent, +1 research from production buildings

Tutelage: Requires Printing, high upkeep, low dissent, +1 wealth from specialists, +1 free specialist with School

Meritocracy: Requires Academia, medium upkeep, medium dissent, +100% GPP in Capitol, +25% GPP in all other cities

Compulsory Education: Requires Sociology, high upkeep, medium dissent, +10% research in all cities, 25% faster production of Science buildings

HEALTHCARE

Natural Remedies: Starting civic, low upkeep, low dissent, +1 health from forest and jungle tiles

Specialization: Requires Writing, medium upkeep, low dissent, 1 free doctor in 6 largest cities, +3 health in Capitol

Traditional Medicine: Requires Medicine, low upkeep, medium dissent, +2 health from State religion buildings, +1 culture from doctors

Medical Professionalism: Requires Scientific Method, medium upkeep, low dissent, +100% Great Doctor emergence, + 25% Great Scientist emergence

Managed Care: Requires Healthcare, medium upkeep, high dissent, +50% chance to attract corporations, Clinics, Hospitals, and Doctors each provide +1 wealth

Single Payer: Requires Pharmaceuticals, high upkeep, medium dissent, -50% unhealthiness from population, +1 happiness from Clinics and Hospitals

EXPANSION

Exploration: Starting civic, medium upkeep, low dissent, 50% faster production of recon units, 25% faster production of naval units, recon units start with Sentry.

Conquest: Requires Bronze Working, high upkeep, medium dissent, units gain double XP from combat outside of cultural borders, -50% war weariness, +25% production of melee, gun, and siege units, -1 relations with rivals that share borders

Isolationism: Requires Fortification, low upkeep, medium dissent, -50% spread of foreign culture within boundaries, foreign missionaries cannot spread religions, foreign executives cannot spread corporations or syndicates, +25% chance to thwart espionage missions, no foreign trade routes

Colonialism: Requires Charter, high upkeep, high dissent, -50% maintenance from distance to Capitol, +25% production of Settler and Colonist, Workers build improvements 50% faster

Cultural Imperialism: Requires Mass Media, high upkeep, low dissent, +100% spread of culture to foreign cities, unlimited artists, can train state religion missionaries without monastary

Post-Nationalism: Requires Telecommunications, medium upkeep, medium dissent, +2 relations with all other players, +1 foreign trade route per city, +25% spaceship part production, +100% war weariness

Anyway, if this is too much work for Xynth or another modder to try, I get it, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to throw the ideas out there.

(Edited; I realized there were 6 options per civic instead of 5)

 

[Xyth]

Sorry for the late reply, I haven't had time for anything Civ-related the past week or so.

Overall I love the civics options in this game, although I agree with making Authoritarianism a bit weaker than it was in 1.24.0 (what I'm currently playing; when I have a big empire I rarely consider any other legal civic).

I'm debating whether to raise Authoritarianism's dissent to Medium or even High. It's a tricky one.

Would you ever consider creating additional civic categories in a future major update? I'm not a modder myself, but if anyone wanted to do so I think the following categories could be fun:

I have no plans to add any new civic categories at this time. Unfortunately, the range of civic effects I can implement without breaking Mac compatibility is fairly limited. it's been a real challenge to make the exisiting 72 civics/tenets interesting and balanced, there's just not enough unused to add more.

 

[SpartanU]

I'm debating whether to raise Authoritarianism's dissent to Medium or even High. It's a tricky one.

Perhaps bump it to high and then adding "each unit adds -X dissent"? In a way each unit decreases dissent by adding excess happiness but adding more than 1 happiness per unit seems excessive.

 

[Leoreth]

If I remember correctly, back when you had a Proclamation civic in the Legal category, it had its own unique button that is currently not used anywhere. Do you happen to still have it around?

Where do you look for civics buttons in general? Do you make them yourself? I've looked into most major mods and can cover most of my civics, but there's still room for improvement in some cases.

Edit: can't believe I forgot to look into C2C, you can spend a day in its civilopedia. Found something that might be the button I was looking for, but if you still have it around it'd be nice to compare.

 

[Xyth]

If I remember correctly, back when you had a Proclamation civic in the Legal category, it had its own unique button that is currently not used anywhere. Do you happen to still have it around?

Attached. I'm not certain, but I think it was from Pie's Ancient Europe.

Where do you look for civics buttons in general? Do you make them yourself? I've looked into most major mods and can cover most of my civics, but there's still room for improvement in some cases.

Every time I download a mod I go through its buttons and copy any interesting/quality ones I find into a folder. Realism Invictus is usually the first place I look (for anything).