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Feedback on the K-Mod global warming system

I do think it's important that there be noticeable unpleasant effects across the globe. But I'd like to avoid effects where one random roll of the dice has a major gameplay impact.

Sensible, but difficult to balance. GW is supposed to cause more and stronger natural disasters (e.g. floods and storms), so how about adding a steadily rising cost to offset them? Running Environmentalism as well as having forests and jungles in one's territory could help reduce that cost.

Stressing this one more time because I think it's important and you didn't reply to it. I think there's not enough incentive to keep forests around, especially on the higher levels. They're just too expendable compared to how powerful chopping is. It would be nice if keeping them became more of an option.
 
Gonna be a hater here with my input :satan:

I don't think the GW mechanic fits in kmod. I'm not going to deny that global warming exists ofc, but the year is 2014 and we've seen only very small effects of GW in the world so far. Again these are very serious effects for humanity, but if we model it in a civ world we have yet to see dramatic changes on the scale of "tile flips" in civ, except maybe 4-5 tiles of ice turn to ocean.
What's worse I saw it happen before I even industrialized -- in fact only one civ had industrialized at all. This is clearly off the timescale of a global warming effect by hundreds of years. So I don't think global warming fits in the realism sense of what it's trying to emulate. It actually did fit somewhat when it was caused by nuclear war, because that would naturally mess things up. Of course it shouldn't have been called global warming.... more like nuclear dust cloud over the world.

Also the ways to reduce global warming are extremely costly to your civ, and benefit every civ not just your own. There's no reason to hurt yourself to help everyone, so the dynamic isn't interesting. Unless you're roleplaying a utopian world, the right choice is to ignore GW totally.
 
Also the ways to reduce global warming are extremely costly to your civ, and benefit every civ not just your own. There's no reason to hurt yourself to help everyone, so the dynamic isn't interesting. Unless you're roleplaying a utopian world, the right choice is to ignore GW totally.
In terms of gameplay, a key aspect of global warming in K-Mod is the unhappiness that comes with it. The :mad: from GW is much higher for civs with a high "relative contribution". Reducing your civ's pollution will reduce "Save the planet!" :mad: in your cities, and it will increase it your opponents cities (because their relative contribution will go up if yours goes down).

I'm not sure what you have in mind that's "extremely costly". Generally the best ways to reduce GW in K-Mod are to use Environmentalism, and to use hydro or nuclear power instead of coal power. I wouldn't describe those things as extremely expensive - and often the extra healthiness makes them worthwhile even without GW.

But as others have said in this thread, GW rarely has a large effect on the game anyway. So often it's fine to just ignore entirely. That's part of the design as well. I don't want GW to be a big part every game - I just want it to be something that you can notice, and for it sometimes be a significant factor. (The issue is that there's a fine balance between having no effect, and have a huge effect.)

If GW is too strong too soon in your games, I'd be interested to know what settings you're using. As outlined in the first post, the key settings are difficulty level, game speed, map size, and map type.

I'm a bit surprised that you'd suggest that the previous global warming system made more sense. Nuclear winter has nothing to do with global warming, and in-game it would not be represented by turning plots to desert anyway. The other environmental effects of nukes are represented by fallout. From a gameplay point of view, you've complained that the K-Mod system is strategically uninteresting; but I'd like to point out that the previous system was worse in that it didn't have any individualised effects at all. In the previous system, the effects of global warming were more harsh, more random, and ... ... Well let me put it this way, if you think that old system was better, I can only conclude that you and I have incompatible views on what good gameplay looks like.

--

@Zholef I didn't say anything about the forests stuff because I just don't feel like I've got much to add to that discussion at the moment. I generally agree that chopping is generally strongest opinion with forests, and often there aren't many forest left in the late game. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. I've considered changing the prerequisite tech of lumber-mills to Guilds, and I haven't made up my mind on that. (Which means I probably won't change it in the near future.)
 
I didn't say anything about the forests stuff because I just don't feel like I've got much to add to that discussion at the moment. I generally agree that chopping is generally strongest opinion with forests, and often there aren't many forest left in the late game. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. I've considered changing the prerequisite tech of lumber-mills to Guilds, and I haven't made up my mind on that. (Which means I probably won't change it in the near future.)

Well, I hope you'll at least consider increasing the health bonus of forests. Anyway, is there perhaps a central XML value I could change to make GW more aggressive in my games? That might allow me to provide some "what if" feedback.
 
I'm not sure what you have in mind that's "extremely costly". Generally the best ways to reduce GW in K-Mod are to use Environmentalism, and to use hydro or nuclear power instead of coal power. I wouldn't describe those things as extremely expensive - and often the extra healthiness makes them worthwhile even without GW.

Nuclear power is not a very large step up from coal power, since it's still -2 health. Dependent on the map played, hydro plants may not be so readily available either.

Well, I hope you'll at least consider increasing the health bonus of forests. Anyway, is there perhaps a central XML value I could change to make GW more aggressive in my games? That might allow me to provide some "what if" feedback.

You can find it under xml/GlobalDefinesAlt.xml, here is the section that deals with GW:

Spoiler :
<Define>
<DefineName>GLOBAL_WARMING_PROB</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>20</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<!-- global warming threshold is # land plots * resistance. -->
<Define>
<DefineName>GLOBAL_WARMING_RESISTANCE</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>10</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<Define>
<DefineName>GLOBAL_WARMING_INDEX_PER_CHANCE</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>450</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<Define>
<DefineName>GLOBAL_WARMING_BASE_ANGER_PERCENT</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>30</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<!-- unused
<Define>
<DefineName>GLOBAL_WARMING_FOREST</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>25</iDefineIntVal>
</Define> -->
<Define>
<DefineName>GLOBAL_WARMING_BUILDING_WEIGHT</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>20</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<Define>
<DefineName>GLOBAL_WARMING_BONUS_WEIGHT</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>20</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<Define>
<DefineName>GLOBAL_WARMING_POWER_WEIGHT</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>20</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<Define>
<DefineName>GLOBAL_WARMING_POPULATION_WEIGHT</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>10</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>
<!--<Define>
<DefineName>GLOBAL_WARMING_NUKE_WEIGHT</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>50</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>


@Karadoc: there seem to be a few "<!-- unused" tags scattered about.... are these tags legacy, or do they denote variables that are actually unused?
 
Hmm, that's more complicated than I had hoped. What do I change to make GW 100% more severe? And if I do, will the AI be able to cope with that change? Or would I end up making the game easier for me?
 
Hmm, that's more complicated than I had hoped. What do I change to make GW 100% more severe? And if I do, will the AI be able to cope with that change? Or would I end up making the game easier for me?

Spoiler :
<DefineName>GLOBAL_WARMING_BASE_ANGER_PERCENT</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>60</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>


If you meant "100% more occurence" or "100% more likely/lower thresholds", then change the appropriate variables proportionately.


As for whether the game is easier for you or not, consider this:

Will you be the one contributing the most to GW (as in, will you be the one with the most factories/power for factories/population/nukes launched), or will that be a hyper-power AI that you let snowball out of control? :lol:
 
Regarding tweaking global warming with xml changes, I made a post about it earlier in this thread.

The short answer is that GLOBAL_WARMING_PROB is probably the best single number to change if you want to adjust overall severity. (In hindsight, I wish I'd called it something else, or written the rules differently so that it was more obvious which xml value did what. The main problem is that the xml values were named before the design of the GW system was finalised.)

XML with <-- (unused) --> surrounding it is not processed at all. Those dashes in the tag denote a comment; so everything inside there is completely ignored by the game. So GLOBAL_WARMING_FOREST and GLOBAL_WARMING_NUKE_WEIGHT are two examples of old xml values that are no longer in the game. (The effect of forests is now defined somewhere else; and nukes simply don't have that effect anymore.) I should probably just delete the unused XML stuff to avoid confusion. Those things are old values which are no longer needed. They aren't going to make a comeback.
 
So in this one recent game of mine (see attached screen shots), I finally got to see the GW system in full action. Everything worked beautifully. The anger hurting my opponents, events screwing up my irrigation chains, everything. But I believe none of that would have happened if not for several factors. The geography made the AI work loads of coast tiles, which leads to more population caused pollution; everyone got nuked, which slowed the tech pace in the modern era; and I could have ended the game sooner if I had not been so preoccupied with running a clean economy (ironically I did that at the same time as I turned my neighbors continent into a nuclear wasteland before he could win culture).

A few thoughts: I think the "removing access to resources" mechanic is silly and unrealistic. Public Transportation should remove pollution from oil, similar to how the building works in stock BtS. Same thing with coal. Why should I suffer pollution from coal if my energy is nuclear and I only use it as a source of aluminum? Lastly, I think the alternative power plants (nuclear and hydro) are too expensive. If I don't have coal, I'm getting tripple punished. First I have to tech deeper into the tree to get power and then I'll have to pay extra hammers to boot. On the other hand, if I have coal it becomes pointless to build the extra plants. They're too expensive for what little pollution reduction they provide.
 

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IRL the biggest, the most important source of GHGs (greenhouse gases) are fossil fuel power plants, especially coal plants. Nuclear and hydro don't produce significant GHG emissions. Coal power should be main source of GHGs and switch from coal to hydro & nuclear should be the main way to reduce GHG emissions significantly (if you want realism, of course). Not some abstract "pollution from population", not "coal is twice more dirty than nuclear and hydro".
Hydro and nuclear shouldn't create :yuck: too (unrealistic; makes difference between them and coal minimal, unless you disconnect coal; also not shown in civiliopedia) - 4 :yuck: for "dirty power" (coal) (or even 6 if you remove 2 :yuck: for coal+factory), 0 :yuck: for "power". I also dislike many other things about power plants (coal plants don't require electricity tech; no oil plants for nations without coal, but with oil; nuclear meltdowns are totally insane, unrealistic and too random, etc) and "environmentalism" civic in BtS.
Other sources of GHG emissions IRL are deforestation, nitrous oxide from fertilizer, methane emissions from livestock (cows, pigs) and rice (so going vegan and pillaging your cows and pigs should reduce emissions, if you want realism), some industrial processes and transportation (by the way, transport emissions vary very greatly between countries - not just by 15%, but many times).
 
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