Feedback thread

[Maniac]

Had a total of six bases, HQ produced 64 minerals/turn, total faction output 119 minerals/turn during the turn before Transcendence victory

Thanks!

Transcendence is a fun victory, I like it better and better... except for one thing: I was in the lead (i.e. highest no. of points in Team Transcendence consisting of Lal/Deirdre/Cha Dawn) - and at a fFC of 96-97... Yang suddenly joined and three turns later, Transcendence. Looks like a potentially abusive strategy: Keep semi-green, try to remain tucked away - and when Transcendence is almost achieved, join (though requiring Secrets of AC as tech might keep that in check a bit). Perhaps include a "deadline" for joining Team Transcendence?

It's not perfect as you noted, but I didn't include a deadline because that would allow a potential situation where Team Terraform is able to stagnate the Flowering Counter, preventing anyone from ever joining Team Transcend. This would go against the spirit of the cooperative Transcendence victory: "The more the merrier!"

Transcendence requires a FC of 85+ - mixed opinion on that right now: On the one hand, allowing the big team to form would be too good, on the other hand, it really enforces the hybrid-terraformer wars, I wished that would occur a bit earlier.

How many turns were there between the declaration of war and FC100?

Apart from Deirdre, the AI seems to be reluctant to build Dawn of the Planet - I'd like to see fungus boy more often!

Is Deirdre just the first to build Dawn of Planet, or does no one else build it if sje doesn't? Given her heavy tech focus on Centauri, she's no doubt almost always the first to get that tech.

Luttinen kept going for a negative Planet Attitude (though not by much) in the last three games. Theme-wise, I'm not sure whether that's fitting - the appear to be among the people seeking Transcendence most (though as a tool for humanity, with Planet as a partner at best, not as an object of veneration) - but they really don't have synergy with that (I'd almost say Roze's bonus of -25% planet damage from pop fits better with her). Plus, producing eco-damage/pollution sounds a lot like "inefficiency", not Consciouss-like!

Sure why not.

Is it intended that Hybrids don't get improvement growth (i.e. Farms) once the FC hits 50 - I assume that's because the FCx2 is the speed reduction in %, resulting in reduction by 100%?

Yep intended. You can't have it both ways.

I have a problem with the Morgan Corporations in my current game (started with patch l, continued under patch m; Consciousness City Set added). All corporations show up as pink squares in the base build menu and tring to build one immediately freezes the game.

Save is attached, just load and try to build one of the corporations in any base.

1. Does the problem stop if you revert to the original Civ4ArtDefines_Building.xml? Shuffling artdefines in the middle of a game causes problems IIRC. IIRC the game just stores at game start which number in the list of all artdefines a certainn building uses. Lord Tirian added new artdefines for Cybernexus/Core.
If that's not it:
2. Are there Morgan_xxx buttons present in Art/Interface/Buttons/Buildings?
3. Do the MORGAN_XXX defines in Civ4ArtDefines_Building.xml link to those buttons?

 

[Lord Tirian]

How many turns were there between the declaration of war and FC100?

Little timeline of transcendence stuff in that game (was normal gamespeed, standard map, of course; noble difficulty):

• Turn 350: Deirdre/Cha Dawn/Lal team forms; war against all other factions, except Morgan and Yang
• Turn 356: Morgan joins (bribed him to adopt Transcendence)
• Turn 361: Yang joins (on his own, displacing me as board leader)
• Turn 364: Transcendence victory (FC reaches 100)

Is Deirdre just the first to build Dawn of Planet, or does no one else build it if sje doesn't? Given her heavy tech focus on Centauri, she's no doubt almost always the first to get that tech.

Hmmm... IIRC, there was a game where nobody built it, but Deirdre was lagging behind tech-wise in that game (and I had no inclination to build it), so that might just be it.

Yep intended. You can't have it both ways.

Ah, cool, just wanted to know whether it was accidental or not. Farms are still useful, though, so it's alright.

Cheers, LT.

 

[malonkey1]

You know about cfkane's SMAC leaderheads? Do you think there's any way you could incorporate those into the mod? Or perhaps add some corporations for the other factions? Such as Probe Team Operations Directorate, for Sinder Roze, for example. I think it's unfair that the Morganites are the only ones that can get the economic benefits of corporations unaided.

 

[Lord Tirian]

You know about cfkane's SMAC leaderheads?

Yes, but AFAIK, Maniac prefers the static leaderheads implemented now; I also share that opinion for a couple of reasons (in no specific order):

• There are only LHs for the original seven faction, but not for the expansion factions - that inconsistency would be rather jarring
• Nostalgia value, it is a mod about the SMAC story after all.
• They are pretty cartoonish, especially the animations (as all Civ4 LHs, that's not a dig at cfkane, he did an excellent job) - that doesn't quite fit the rather somber and darker atmosphere SMAC evoked

I think it's unfair that the Morganites are the only ones that can get the economic benefits of corporations unaided.

Why? Do you feel that the other factions are unbalanced because of this? Besides if you mean the cooperation mechanism converting resources into certain commerces/yields... some buildings, like the Brood Pit, do the same.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Pfeffersack]

Why? Do you feel that the other factions are unbalanced because of this? Besides if you mean the cooperation mechanism converting resources into certain commerces/yields... some buildings, like the Brood Pit, do the same.

Thats exactly the point - I would say the other factions would get overpowered, if they get acess to corporations on top as well. PFs concept is to give each faction very strong, but also unique boni. Which means that each factions has niche where it is superior and others can beat it with their strengths.

 

[Monaldinio]

After 651 Rounds the Game Crash!!!!

I dont know why?!?!

The only advice i get was "a Problem was deceted...BtS 3.19...in Plantefall CvGameCoreDLL.dll..."!

I wonder...so i loaded a savegame 1 round before the Crash (651), opened the WB...delate all...realy ALL Bases, Units and Improvements of all Fraktions (inclouding my on - apart from 1...and in this one nothing was builed and no researched!
Saved the Game, loaded this savegame...end the Round...and Crash agin!

Then, a loadet a savegame from 6 rounds before the Crash...do the same in the WB....delete all...end the rounds till 651...and the Game crash again!

So it can not be a graphikproblem! Right!?! Somthing with the CvGameCoreDLL.dll...

 

[Maniac]

I can't solve problems existing in modmods, especially since IIRC you use a DLL a couple months old.

I would recommend you learn how to create and use a debug DLL. Teach a man to fish etcetera.

 

[Lord Tirian]

So... played with Morgan, Terraformer strategy - and aimed for the Gate victory to see it from the non-Green, non-University side (and since it's an economic victory, going with Morgan can't be wrong! ).

Game was played with pure Planetfall v13m, standard size, normal speed, standard game options, Noble difficulty. Had a relatively blessed start - wasn't in the middle of the starting positions, so I had room to expand and I only shared a border with Zakharov until the expansion factions spawned. I also noticed that, as so often, Miri was pretty low in score again, but if I remember correctly, the AI isn't too gifted with playing the Believers well. Researched Singularity Mech at turn 300. At this point, the PTS was built already, so I could start with investing everything into the Subspace Generator right away (i.e. spamming material supplies).

Won the game by the start of turn 306. The largest bas, Morgan Industries, had a material output of 85/turn (and was the location of the Gate). I controlled 12 bases in total, about half of them were fully developed and working on MS'; the total faction mineral out put was 498/turn.

In the same game, I also noticed that the Planetbuster is still bugged - it's impossible to build, even with fulfilling all prerequisites (had Supercollider, UN resolution had failed - i.e. nukes were allowed, just got access to Helium-3, had Monopole Magnets tech).

I attached a couple of saves - from the failed PB build (for bugfixing), the turn I initiated the Gate build and the turn before winning (in case you want to poke around - but I'm a lousy player, so don't be surprised if there are glaring mistakes ). Zipped for (in)convenience, because it's saving a little bit of space.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Maniac]

Maniac, could you take a look at this save?

I switched from the University to the CyCon in this game, started wars with Hive and Morganites and emptied my only city of defenders. Next turn (MY2148) a Morganite siege tank barges in and I'm of course defeated. The GUI froze at that point. I could only access the Datalinks and the game options screen.

This is under patch 13m, and I added LT's CyCon files over it.

First time I load the game I get the University. When I reload, I already get a message I'm defeated, despite the game only still being MY 2147.

Also, how come the University leader is called "Godwinson". Did you name yourself that way, or did the name change to that after you switched to the Consciousness?

 

[Maniac]

The Planet Buster should be fixed in the next patch.

Sounds like 10000 minerals would be a more appropriate total cost for the Interstellar Gate victory.

 

[Lord Tirian]

Sounds like 10000 minerals would be a more appropriate total cost for the Interstellar Gate victory.

For a more or less dedicated production economy? Absolutely (though it also means winning through gate is about as expensive as building 100 gravships - but that doesn't sound too off).

It also means that non-Terraformer factions will have it a lot harder to pull that off, now for Hybrids and expansionists like Yang, that actually doesn't sound too bad - I'm only concerned about the aliens. The IG is sort of there Subspace Beacon victory, after all - and neither of them is very likely to go all terraforming/borehole happy - Usurpers are probably Hybrid and Caretakers Biodomed.

I'd say making about a third of the project (in total, not at the same time) buildable by great scientists and/or transcends might help with that... but perhaps you have a way more clever idea (or think that it probably for the best if only hardcore builders can do it).

Cheers, LT.

 

[Monaldinio]

I can't solve problems existing in modmods, especially since IIRC you use a DLL a couple months old.

I would recommend you learn how to create and use a debug DLL. Teach a man to fish etcetera.

What do you mean with IIRC?!?!

And im not speaking about my modmod...im speaking about your mod...the error happens in Planetfall 13l!

 

[Lord Tirian]

What do you mean with IIRC?!?!

IIRC = If I Recall Correctly

And im not speaking about my modmod...i speak about your mod...the rrror happens in Planetfall 13l!

Plain unmodified Planetfall? Post a savegame, otherwise it's awfully hard for Maniac to investigate.

Though didn't you say that you had the error in the mod-modded version (see your post here)?

Cheers, LT.

 

[Monaldinio]

Was haben Graphiken (Einheiten und Gebäude) die korrekt eingebunden sind und korrekt angezeigt werden damit zu tun das die CvGameCoreDLL.dll fehlerhaft ist und abstürzt?!?!? NICHTS!!! REIN GAR NICHTS!!!! Es geht hier NICHT um eine falsch Verlinkte XML-Datei...oder einen Falschen TAG!!!!!!!!

Zumal, wenn im Spiel alles korrekt angezeigt wird wenn man Gebäude und Einheiten fertig gebaut hat und es zu keinen Crash kommt.

Außerdem habe ich, wie ich schon erklärt habe, ein Graphischen Problem ausgeschlossen...oder war meine Vorgehensweise unverständlich ausgedrückt?!?
Wenn mit Hilfe des WB alles auf der Karte gelöscht wurde, und der Fehler trotzdem auftaucht, kann es auch ein Graphisches Problem sein das diesen Fehler auslöst! Logisch oder?!?!?!!?

Wenn du selber mal sowas gemacht hättest, wüsstest du das!

Aber alles was man hier an feadback bekommt ist: "ich habe keine Ahnung", "ich weiß nichts", "mach dein Kram allein!" Mein Kram habe ich gemacht, aber wenn ich euch auf Fehler hinweise die IHR gemacht habt...dann könnte man das schon mal annehmen! Habe das Gefühl das ihr/Maniac Refier und Konkurrenzgehabe an den Tag legt. Voll daneben! Jedenfalls ist es lustig das der eine oder andere Thread den ich eröffnet habe, mit verfolgt wird...und sogar noch Leute die mich unterstützt haben, nun sogar "abgeworben" werden! Thema Übersetzung.

Im übrigen habt ihr 97 fehlende oder falsche Verlinkungen zu Grafiken...bei den Leaderheats...misc...ect bla bla... Das solltet hier auch mal in den Griff bekommen.
IM ORIGINAL PLANETFALL MOD v13l

So, nun hab ich mich mal ordentlich ausgekotzt...

 

[Lord Tirian]

Was haben Graphiken (Einheiten und Gebäude) die korrekt eingebunden sind und korrekt angezeigt werden damit zu tun das die CvGameCoreDLL.dll fehlerhaft ist und abstürzt?!?!? NICHTS!!! REIN GAR NICHTS!!!! Es geht hier NICHT um eine falsch Verlinkte XML-Datei...oder einen Falschen TAG!!!!!!!!

Und deswegen braucht Maniac ein Savegame - damit er den Fehler finden und beheben kann - eine DLL hat zigtausend Zeilen Quellcode - du kannst nicht einfach reingucken und sofort Fehler sehen (sonst würde man keine machen), man muss sie in Aktion sehen, denn das Bugfixing geht ungefähr so:

Du lädst ein Savegame mit einer Debug-DLL, aber beim Crash geht die nicht sang- und klanglos unter, sondern zeigt dir, wo im Quellcode gerade gearbeitet wurde. Falls du dich wunderst warum Debug-DLLs nicht beim Mod oder Spiel automatisch mitgeliefert werden: Sie funzen nur, wenn man sie mit dem Compiler (z.B. Visual Studio) und Quellcode verlinkt, sind also für das normale Spielen ungeeignet.

Aber alles was man hier an feadback bekommt ist: "ich habe keine Ahnung", "ich weiß nichts", "mach dein Kram allein!" Mein Kram habe ich gemacht, aber wenn ich euch auf Fehler hinweise die IHR gemacht habt...dann könnte man das schon mal annehmen! Habe das Gefühl das ihr/Maniac Refier und Konkurrenzgehabe an den Tag legt. Voll daneben!

Nein, wie gesagt: Ohne Savegame *können* wir dir rein technisch nicht helfen. Und das ist warum Maniac dir nicht mit deinen Modmod-Problemen helfen kann - deine Veränderungen machen das Savegame inkompatibel mit seiner Version, folglich kann er es nicht mehr in die Debug-DLL reinladen um den Fehler zu finden. Das hat nix mit Konkurrenz zu tun, sondern mit der technischen Problematik.

Jedenfalls ist es lustig das der eine oder andere Thread den ich eröffnet habe, mit verfolgt wird...und sogar noch Leute die mich unterstützt haben, nun sogar "abgeworben" werden! Thema Übersetzung.

Natürlich verfolge ich den Thread mit - ich finde dein Modmod interessant. Es ist nicht 100% mein Geschmack (aber Planetfall pur auch nicht, ich hab auch eine kleine selbstgemoddete Version - ich benutze nur nicht wenn ich, wie oben, spiele um Feedback zu liefern), aber ich hab' auch nix gegen, im Gegenteil - Aktivität und Diskussion sind gut! Und "abwerben"? Dein Modmod und Planetfall haben textmäßig große Überlappungen - wenn Texte aus dem Hauptmod übersetzt werden, hilft das nicht beiden Mods?

Im übrigen habt ihr 97 fehlende oder falsche Verlinkungen zu Grafiken...bei den Leaderheats...misc...ect bla bla... Das solltet hier auch mal in den Griff bekommen.
IM ORIGINAL PLANETFALL MOD v13l

Statt einfach nur zu sagen "irgendwo sind 97 Fehler," hilf uns - sei konstruktiv und sag und wo Fehler sind. Niemand mag es Fehler in seinem Mod zu haben, aber niemand hat unbegrenzt Zeit durch jede Datei zu gehen (vor allem wenn das Mod sonst stabil läuft und niemand anders sie berichtet hat, wie soll man sie sonst sehen? Vergiss nicht das Planetfall - besonders am Anfang - von einer viel größeren Truppe als jetzt gemacht wurde, viele Kleinigkeiten usw. sind "vererbt").

So, nun hab ich mich mal ordentlich ausgekotzt...

Aber leider nur... mir gegenüber, weil das Forum hier hauptsächlich englischsprachig ist - ich weiß nicht ob das so 100% freundlich ist gegenüber allen anderen Leuten hier (und folglich kriegste wahrscheinlich auch nur von mir eine Antwort... weil andere dich nicht verstehen.)

EDIT: Sorry about the wall of (German) text - not sure how to handle the answer otherwise (and I don't really wanted to ignore it, since I felt some of that stuff had to be addressed). If a mod swoops in an can make a ruling on it or something, that would be nice (I've reported my own post in order to bring it to their attention, so...)

Cheers, LT.

 

[GeoModder]

Also, how come the University leader is called "Godwinson". Did you name yourself that way, or did the name change to that after you switched to the Consciousness?

I'm often lazy changing my ingame name.

EDIT: Sorry about the wall of (German) text - not sure how to handle the answer otherwise (and I don't really wanted to ignore it, since I felt some of that stuff had to be addressed). If a mod swoops in an can make a ruling on it or something, that would be nice (I've reported my own post in order to bring it to their attention, so...)

You tell him, LT.

(Btw, may I ask to conscript you for translating a few English sentences in German? It's also for an old SciFi game...)

 

[Maniac]

Im übrigen habt ihr 97 fehlende oder falsche Verlinkungen zu Grafiken...bei den Leaderheats...misc...ect bla bla...

What are they? Perhaps that's why cfkane can't use his 3D leaderheads without crashing.

Und deswegen braucht Maniac ein Savegame - damit er den Fehler finden und beheben kann - eine DLL hat zigtausend Zeilen Quellcode - du kannst nicht einfach reingucken und sofort Fehler sehen (sonst würde man keine machen)

Yeah. Contrary to popular opinion I can't magically solve a problem because someone says there is one.

ich hab auch eine kleine selbstgemoddete Version

What did you change?

 

[Lord Tirian]

(Btw, may I ask to conscript you for translating a few English sentences in German? It's also for an old SciFi game...)

As long as it's not a novel or something... sure, why not?

What did you change?

Not a lot - some cosmetic changes - I've made the terrain a bit darker and less lush (in SMAC, rainy was looking like moist in Planetfall, I was trying to evoke that feeling again), but IIRC, you liked the terrain brighter when I overhauled it, so I kept it for myself.

I changed the graphics (and names and some promos) of the cruiser and submarine units - it feels more logical to me that cruisers grow out of the foil development, while subs are something entirely new. The use seems to fit a bit better too - subs get clogged in fungus and in an enclosed space it's dangerous if somebody goes crazy (i.e. PSI attacks), but they are good for hunting other ships (the current cruiser role).

Finally some tech tree fiddling, but that was the least well-tested/developed aspect: I don't think that AND-prerequisites are evil , so I roughly divided the tech tree: into two parts Hybrid (the Genetics, Centauri and Computer Techs) and Terraform (essentially the rest). All ORs within a tree became ANDs, while links between Hybrid and Terraform remained ORs. The idea was making the distinction between them clearer and preventing too much beelining (which seems to cripple the AI a bit, it doesn't deal well with the very open tech tree) without making cross-research totally impossible (like a tree consisting only of ANDs; besides, forcing Hybrids to research Terraformer techs would be weird). But that part needs some fiddling, since tech trees are tricky.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Maniac]

I'm only concerned about the aliens. The IG is sort of there Subspace Beacon victory, after all - and neither of them is very likely to go all terraforming/borehole happy - Usurpers are probably Hybrid and Caretakers Biodomed.

They could always get cheaper unique versions of those buildings.

but perhaps you have a way more clever idea (or think that it probably for the best if only hardcore builders can do it).

I'm not sure yet how I could do it. I've changed my mind a couple times already the last two weeks because some new idea didn't work for some reason.

Currently I'm thinking I could remove the Academy and replace it with a Singularity Inductor building which gives the same effects. It could be hurried by a Great Scientist or be built everywhere after researching an endgame tech. Six would be required for victory.

Besides that I could make the Dimensional Gate buildable in a base that has a Dimensional Distortion resource in its base radius, even if you don't yet have the usual prerequisite tech. Once again six would be required.

Then you could be required to build Six Subspace Generators. They'd need to be built in a base with a Singularity Inductor. These would always require an endgame tech (unlike the Singularity Inductor and Dimensional Gate) to prevent you from winning an Interstellar Gate victory in the middle of the tech tree if you focus on Great Scientist production; thus keeping the Interstellar Gate a technological victory.

The prereqs for Singularity Inductor, Dimensional Gate, Subspace Generator and Material Supplies could be made different endgame techs, so you'd have to do more research if you don't focus on one of the alternative ways to build Sing Inductors or Dim Gates.

This would require changing the endgame tech tree somewhat however, so this idea definitely requires more thought, and it won't be for the next patch.

I changed the graphics (and names and some promos) of the cruiser and submarine units - it feels more logical to me that cruisers grow out of the foil development, while subs are something entirely new. The use seems to fit a bit better too - subs get clogged in fungus and in an enclosed space it's dangerous if somebody goes crazy (i.e. PSI attacks), but they are good for hunting other ships (the current cruiser role).

Subs get clogged in fungus? How does that happen? Do you sea fungus as something that grows on the bottom of the ocean and reaches up all the way to the surface? Personally I feel that doesn't make much sense as that would mean sea fungus would have to be over a kilometer thick on Ocean tiles. I rather see sea fungus as a carpet covering the ocean surface, at most a couple meters thick. So submarines should actually be able to ignore the fungus movement penalty. I haven't given them that bonus however as it would reduce the specialty of native life units.

Are the cruiser and submarine graphics you use something that could be used by me for spec ab versions of those units?

 

[Lord Tirian]

Do you sea fungus as something that grows on the bottom of the ocean and reaches up all the way to the surface?

I imagine it very diffuse and anchored to the bottom (that's why it can't grow in trenches). Lots of long interconnected tendrils and strands forming a large net (a bit like these "neural nets" you see as CGI for brain synapses). All in all something you can pass through if you're careful, but going in with full speed would a) alert native life after some time and b) you'd keep accumulating more and more strands (a bit like moving through a room full of cobwebs).

Are the cruiser and submarine graphics you use something that could be used by me for spec ab versions of those units?

I'm using The_Coyote's Skjold class (albeit a bit retextured) as connection between foils and the destroyed->cruiser (since there are three submarine variants, but only two cruisers, so I needed an extra cruiser after the switch), but I don't think it's a very fitting promotion model.

One more thing: That's not directly related to anything, but I feel University is one of the less interesting factions, as it has very static/boring bonuses. When read the faction flavour texts again, I noticed that one aspect of the University is left out completely: Unethical experiments.

Could University drones (perhaps with an unique building akin to the Genejack Factory - or even as replacement for that - a Genejack Laboratory) produce beakers? Adding an unique spin to unhappiness works well for Yang (in terms of making things more interesting and varied) and is very flavourful as well.

Cheers, LT.