Feedback thread

I remembered a component dealing with that problem by expanding the display room and came up with those two sources:

I'll have a look.

My game crash between the turns 2340 and 2341.

I have a patch ready, but 1) it will break save games, and 2) WePlayCiv seems to be down, so I can't release the patch.

it feels rather like the later mid/end game techs get researched too fast

Do you have concrete suggestions for changed tech costs? If not you'll have to wait until I play a game myself to the end, which may not be for soon... Also two considerations:

1) Would the endgame techs still be worth researching if they were more expensive? Especially after Nanites this is a consideration as energy can efficiently be converted into production.
2) I see nothing inherently wrong with a 350 turn game. Heck, SMAC could be won in less than 100 turns.

should limit the number of bunkers by making a free tile between them necessary

I'd first prefer to have a try at improving fort AI before making such a rule change which would affect humans as well. In the meanwhile a strategy suggestion I haven't tried myself: don't air units or Thermobaric Missile not work to soften up bunkers? Also while sometimes the AI tends to have a concentration of bunkers some places, this isn't everywhere. Have you considered simply switching targets to less defender or more recently founded bases? With some luck they'll offer vassalization to you if you conquer their recent colonies, even if their core bases are practically impenetrable.

AIs don't seem to priorize Genfactories very much

I had a look at the code and made a few tweaks (for the next patch/version after j) which hopefully could improve this behaviour: the AI was valuing unhappy production less if the base was unhealthy, plus I see the local specialist yield change wasn't taking into account settled specialists (maintenancy bay technician). I don't see a smoking gun for bad AI code of mine though.
 
Hey Maniac, while it's probably too late for the patch now, would it be possible to include The_J's invisible dummy techs-mod comp? It hides techs with coordinates outside the techtree in the civilopedia and Planetfall has a number of left-over techs... would be nice to get them out of the pedia, just looks neater in my opinion.

Cheers, LT.
 
EDIT: I just had a random idea, so I'm writing it down before I forget it (though not sure how good it is): SMAC had the possibility of equipping human units with Psi-weapons/armour. Perhaps the Centauri tech path could, at some point, get a human unit that uses Psi combat? The difference to a straight mindworm would be that it can pick, like infantry, spec abs, but not the native promos. Might be interesting to have that different set of options.

For graphics, how about something like the Acolyte unit, but with a fluctuating blue empath glow around it? The Transcend unit could be the same model with a golden glow. Do you know if something like this is complicated to do?
 
For graphics, how about something like the Acolyte unit, but with a fluctuating blue empath glow around it? The Transcend unit could be the same model with a golden glow. Do you know if something like this is complicated to do?
Adding some glow effects isn't too hard, but the Acolyte is not a combat unit, so it would still need something for combat animations - perhaps that would be a good opportunity to introduce some general Psi-combat animation (like a reddish energy wave/swirl)?

Anyway, I'll have a go when I have time (right now, everything is a bit busy, because Christmas etc.! ;) )

Cheers, LT.
 
so it would still need something for combat animations - perhaps that would be a good opportunity to introduce some general Psi-combat animation (like a reddish energy wave/swirl)?

Sure if you're interested. :) I'd prefer it not to look like casting a fireball or so though. If this is possible, something like the unit touching her temples with her hands, and then a wavefront animation would look less silly as a visual representation. Of course I guess to be really 'realistic', there should be no representation of psi energy at all.
 
So, had finally time to play a bit again - this time as Morgan with a Terraforming strategy... for a change. Some observations:
  • Oh, it's fun! Drilling boreholes, watching your farms grow, building condensers... I almost have the feeling that the Hybrid gameplay is a lot more passive development-wise (esp. as communes come so late), but then, that probably fits their theme.
  • The inability to build magtubes on rocky terrain is annoying - not because I want the mobility there, but because it screws up the "Route-To" command, makes magtube building very micromanagement-intensive, I really don't like that.
  • Morgan is a faction I really start to like now. In SMAC, I found them a bit "meh", but having the unique wonders (Morgan Entertainment, Trade Centre etc.) is a nice touch and unit hurrying is very powerful (...and perhaps the button hovertext could be changed from "hurry" to "hire"? Would make the mercenary theme clearer, I think... or will they get a "Mercenary" promo or something in the future?)

Cheers, LT.
 
Some more comments (still from my game under patch h), but I don't think it really matters here):

1. Anyone else having the impression that after acquiring Personality Transcription you get flooded with Great People? I got the tech 2386 in my game and until now (2449), I received in that period:

2391 Great Doctor
2397 Great Tycoon
2405 Great Tycoon
2398 Great Doctor
2407 Great Tycoon
2417 Great Engineer
2426 Hacker
2430 Great Doctor
2431 Great Tycoon
2436 Great Tycoon
2444 Great Tycoon
2445 Great Tycoon

According to the statistics screen, I got over the entire course of the game 19 non-military GP (4 Great doctors, 1 Great Engineer, 1 Great Psych Chaplain, 8 Great Tycoons, no Great Scientist, 5 Hackers and no Transcendend). Thats 63% of the GP in 18% of the games turns!

It is probably a matter of taste, but the assymetrie in the distribution isn't very fun for me. Yes, PT allows you to get Great People at all, where the would otherwise get more and more rare. But on the other hand, at the end of the tech tree, you start to run out of techs to bulb and settling GPs has less and less impact...for Tycoons that means you just fo for trade missions. You can argue that specially that quantity makes up for quality... Perhaps PT should be an optional tech, which just pools your GP points (no more per city-generation) - it would reduce the spam a bit and it would make the tech less of a must have - because it comes at the price of getting more GP, but with less control over what you get. Or maybe just having one treshold value, where all GP count against instead of a per city one and a global (I remember that Maniac explained it to me, but I can't found that post now...so it might work already that way)

2. The Psychic Terror promotion for native life feels very strong - I think it is because you circumvent a core rule of the Civ(4) engine with it. This rule is the that the attcker decides when to attack, but that defender choose who gets attacked. It is a kind of balancing moment and depending on the situation, one or the other side has the more important choice. Psychic Terror turns the defenders advantage into the complete opposite, which allows the attacker to break nearly any defense, given that he has enough units with that prom. Civ4 is about having mixed armies and here we have a tool which nullyfies that strategy. I made massive use of those units, when attacking a gaian city and killed Thermobaric missiles and Penetrators, which cannot even defend. Don't know if that is intended or balanced. Another problem is that this promotion works perfectly together with causing maximum CD - Spore Launchers will survive most attacks with this promotions and if you fight weakest unit directly, you hit the strong units in the base/stack with CD. And the next Spore Launcher will face a different "weakest" enemy and so on...

Now I don't want it to get abandoned (just too fun), but I have two ides, what could be done to make it more balanced (if a change is desired). Either just give Psychic Terror a life cycle requirement (II or even III might be a good spot) - the lifecycle promotions are underused in my games anyway, because native life has access to a lot other cool-effect-promotions right from the start. Or call the promation differntly (e.g. "Enraged"/"Beserker") and let it pick a random defender - that would be still a disadvantage for the defender in most cases, but not as devastating as the current situation.

3. I experienced the first time a council resolution regarding "Release Oxygen in the atmosphere"; however, the effect seems to be far too weak (no counter
change at all):
 

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1. Anyone else having the impression that after acquiring Personality Transcription you get flooded with Great People? I got the tech 2386 in my game and until now (2449), I received in that period:
Yep, just experienced the same with my Morgan game. It's a lot, but I wouldn't exactly say they're useless. They allowed me to win an Interstellar Gate victory very, very fast by bulbing techs to get closer to it. And setting, if you get a new GP every 3-4 turns, is pretty good.

Some observations on the Interstellar Gate: It's pretty easy to achieve by bulbing/hurrying/rush buying. Almost too easy - due to Planetfall's OR-only tech tree, it's a lot easier to get to Singularity Mechanics than to get to the "win"-techs in SMAC or Civ4 - I think that tech could be a bit harder to get, since the tech is only for winning, it doesn't need to the usual design paradigm, I think. Or make the subspace generator a bit harder to build... or something similar. I just feel it's an easier builder victory than the space race in Civ4, whereas the other victories are a lot harder to get (of course, I'm a builder, so it's probably just the combination of my playstyle + Morgan).

Furthermore, since University gets a good shot at the victory as well, it would be nice to have some indicator on the victory conditions screen - since only one generator is required, the victory screen shows nothing useful (like 3 of 7 etc.). The only way to get an idea of the enemy's state is counting dimensional gates on the world map... that's rather annoying.
Either just give Psychic Terror a life cycle requirement (II or even III might be a good spot) - the lifecycle promotions are underused in my games anyway, because native life has access to a lot other cool-effect-promotions right from the start. Or call the promation differntly (e.g. "Enraged"/"Beserker") and let it pick a random defender - that would be still a disadvantage for the defender in most cases, but not as devastating as the current situation.
Perhaps change Hypnotic Trance? So far, I felt that HT is a bit weak, since defence is already hard against PSIs (you're almost always attacking with units, so HT is pretty useless in my opinion - even if you get to defend, the +25% bonus isn't very big... and no unit has a innate defence against PSI which would synergise with HT) and the pod popping bonus isn't worth it. By making HT a "guard"-like promo that ignores Psychic Terror, it would become a lot better.

EDIT: I also noticed that the UN council was a bit in a deadlock - second time I've observed that. Yang (because of the sequestered starting position, he gets a lot of bases easily and can get quite a bit of pop) and Lal (because of the double votes and because he usually builds the council) have quite a big impact on the council, since it's so population-dependant. And they often try diplomatic victory votes (which nobody wins) - instead of the various other things you can do with the council. No idea how this can be changed, but having a more dynamic council would be interesting. Or I just have bad luck with the council! :D

Cheers, LT.
 
The inability to build magtubes on rocky terrain is annoying - not because I want the mobility there, but because it screws up the "Route-To" command, makes magtube building very micromanagement-intensive, I really don't like that.

Not sure, but I may be able to fix that. AI formers already avoid rocky and ridges when route building, but as I never automate, I didn't know it didn't work for humans.

perhaps the button hovertext could be changed from "hurry" to "hire"? Would make the mercenary theme clearer, I think... or will they get a "Mercenary" promo or something in the future?)

Done. No Mercenary promo planned.

1. Anyone else having the impression that after acquiring Personality Transcription you get flooded with Great People?

I get the impression your problem is rather with the trade mission than great people flood in general. Correct?
In any case, I disagree it's overpowered. First, it all depends on how much you focus on specialists of course. Secondly, consider, using Nanite conversion rates, what you could do with the hammer equivalent of the Personality Transcription tech cost. Build 20 Nanoreplicators or so? If anything, my worry is the tech might be underpowered if you're not playing the Peacekeepers.

2. The Psychic Terror promotion for native life feels very strong

The tactic you describe is intended by me.

First thought: is this tactic really more powerful than a Terraformer using a similar number of ranged strike units to weaken the enemy before attacking? Native life units can't do that.

Second consideration: in theory the downside of native life's powerful direct attack is that you need to get right next to the enemy for it to be useful. If an enemy base is defended by a Bunker, your stack may have been severely weakened by the time it gets next to the base. So my first priority would be to get the AI to build more ranged strike units. The next release will include some AI code which should make them more likely to pick the ranged promotions. Also perhaps this critique is an indication the AI should build more instead of less Bunkers. ;) If extra ranged strike units aren't sufficient, I'd consider not allowing Psychic Terror for spore launchers as a next step.

The thing with attacking air and naval units is a hole in code of mine which I have plugged now.

3. I experienced the first time a council resolution regarding "Release Oxygen in the atmosphere"; however, the effect seems to be far too weak (no counter
change at all):

Are you sure the FC didn't even change by one? I can't calculate what the effect should be without knowing how many native habitable plots your map has, but If my suspicion is correct, the problem may just be with my text message, and the real effect may be 100 times larger than what it says there.

Some observations on the Interstellar Gate: It's pretty easy

In the future I hope to let your enemes declare war on you when you have completed all the required Dimensional Gates. I can then modify the Subspace Generator cost to something high enough so that you're assured to have to hold off the enemy for some turns.

I wouldn't really know how to change the Victory screen. I think BUG has some code which allows you to see national wonders on the F9 screen. I might add that in the future. That should allow you to see where there are Dimensional Gates. That plus a message when anyone builds a Dimensional Gate should hopefully be enough.

And they often try diplomatic victory votes (which nobody wins) - instead of the various other things you can do with the council.

Actually prior to Atmospheric Enrichment, there's nothing useful you can do with the Council, besides getting an extra trade route as governor. It would need some repetitive council motion, like the Acolyte unit for the Concordat, to avoid constant diplo victory motions.
 
If this is possible, something like the unit touching her temples with her hands, and then a wavefront animation would look less silly as a visual representation. Of course I guess to be really 'realistic', there should be no representation of psi energy at all.

There are a few unused (afaik) effects in vanilla civ4. Look in assets/art/interface/effects. Perhaps the stasis.nif or stasisloop.nif are something for an empath effect?
 
I get the impression your problem is rather with the trade mission than great people flood in general. Correct?

I would rather say that I have another issue with the trade mission; I experssed recently my thought that I the late game has a lot of energy and the trade missions add even more on the top. Regarding the number of GP after the discovery of PT, it is nothing specially related to Great Tycoons or the trade mission (they were just dominating in that game for some reason and served as example for the showing the numbers you get and the restricted options you have). You have a point though, that not all kinds of GP suffer as much from restricted options (e.g. Psych Chaplains "culture bomb" function is nearly always useful) .


In any case, I disagree it's overpowered. First, it all depends on how much you focus on specialists of course. Secondly, consider, using Nanite conversion rates, what you could do with the hammer equivalent of the Personality Transcription tech cost. Build 20 Nanoreplicators or so? If anything, my worry is the tech might be underpowered if you're not playing the Peacekeepers.

My intention wasn't to say that it is generally overpowered (but I have to admit that my solutions indicated that, so scrap them please :sad: ) - it is rather the feeling that the concept of rare, very useful Great Persons get replaced by masses of them at a point where the value of each one decreases significantly.
Maybe a solution lies within what you have said - don't mess with the generation process as I suggested, but make the tech more interesting by giving GPs stronger late game benefits (e.g. I remember that a kind of "redemption" for one terraformer in the late game was discussed - maybe Transcends could serve that role under special circumctances by offering a kind of "green trade mission"?)


The tactic you describe is intended by me.

That's one of the reasons why I love your mod - I still discover frequently new strategies when playing, which I consider then as exploits, when they lead me to victory :crazyeye: :lol:


First thought: is this tactic really more powerful than a Terraformer using a similar number of ranged strike units to weaken the enemy before attacking? Native life units can't do that.

That's food for thought...perhaps, need to try in my next Terrraformer game. However, there is one difference - conventional units need to be specialized right from the start on in that direction (and sacrifice other special abilities in exchange), while NL units can be developed into that role even later.


Second consideration: in theory the downside of native life's powerful direct attack is that you need to get right next to the enemy for it to be useful. If an enemy base is defended by a Bunker, your stack may have been severely weakened by the time it gets next to the base. So my first priority would be to get the AI to build more ranged strike units. The next release will include some AI code which should make them more likely to pick the ranged promotions. Also perhaps this critique is an indication the AI should build more instead of less Bunkers. ;)

Yes, the need to get close by is a weak spot for mindworms and spore launchers (not for Locusts, though!) More range promoted units for the AIs sound good.
Regarding bunkers...you are again right, they are a strong defense and I never disputed that. The thing is just... a map full with bunkers looks rather ugly and fighting them is a tedious business. Thermobaric missiles help, but you often need 2 to seriously damage a bunker... I don't know, but fighting vs. bunkers is just not fun. But maybe I haven't just found an "exploit" to kill bunkers yet :lol:


If extra ranged strike units aren't sufficient, I'd consider not allowing Psychic Terror for spore launchers as a next step. The thing with attacking air and naval units is a hole in code of mine which I have plugged now.

That should help already a good bit...plus the fact that my game was still played under rules, which allowed me to capture high-promoted Gaian SL despite having only a slightly positive Planet Attitude. That might have added to the feeling that they ripped through everything (Deidre had a faible for promoting them with Miasma promotions...)


Are you sure the FC didn't even change by one? I can't calculate what the effect should be without knowing how many native habitable plots your map has, but If my suspicion is correct, the problem may just be with my text message, and the real effect may be 100 times larger than what it says there.

I'm pretty sure that there was no FC drop at all. It dropped by one on the interturn before the resolution was put up to vote, but not in interturn before the voting result showed up - of course expanding fungus could have counteracted. I could try to find and upload a save, but I'm not sure if it is still useful for you, because it would be from my old game (last compatible patch for it was h) )


Lord Tirian said:
Some observations on the Interstellar Gate: It's pretty easy to achieve by bulbing/hurrying/rush buying. Almost too easy - due to Planetfall's OR-only tech tree, it's a lot easier to get to Singularity Mechanics than to get to the "win"-techs in SMAC or Civ4 - I think that tech could be a bit harder to get, since the tech is only for winning, it doesn't need to the usual design paradigm, I think. Or make the subspace generator a bit harder to build... or something similar. I just feel it's an easier builder victory than the space race in Civ4, whereas the other victories are a lot harder to get (of course, I'm a builder, so it's probably just the combination of my playstyle + Morgan).

EDIT: I also noticed that the UN council was a bit in a deadlock - second time I've observed that. Yang (because of the sequestered starting position, he gets a lot of bases easily and can get quite a bit of pop) and Lal (because of the double votes and because he usually builds the council) have quite a big impact on the council, since it's so population-dependant. And they often try diplomatic victory votes (which nobody wins) - instead of the various other things you can do with the council. No idea how this can be changed, but having a more dynamic council would be interesting. Or I just have bad luck with the council!

Yes, that was my observation, too. I won an Interstellar Gate victory on Immortal in my last game (playing Yang), while I was far away from any other victory condition. I'm not sure how focussed the AI is one that victory - several AIs already had the necessary techs, but somehow didn't manage to build enough portals soon enough (in the game before though - same difficulty, as Santiago - the University scored a IG victory in a few turns less.
Planet council victory votes are common in my games as well and only very rarely one side gets close to getting a sufficient majority of votes. I'm currently unsure, but is the needed share of the votes the same as in SMAX?


Lord Tirian said:
Furthermore, since University gets a good shot at the victory as well, it would be nice to have some indicator on the victory conditions screen - since only one generator is required, the victory screen shows nothing useful (like 3 of 7 etc.). The only way to get an idea of the enemy's state is counting dimensional gates on the world map... that's rather annoying.

Indeed, that would be extremly useful!
 
Thermobaric missiles help, but you often need 2 to seriously damage a bunker... I don't know, but fighting vs. bunkers is just not fun. But maybe I haven't just found an "exploit" to kill bunkers yet :lol:

If the reason you don't find fighting bunkers fun, is because you lose units fighting them, that won't change. The attacker should have more losses when assaulting static defenses.

I was thinking I could edit the spy code a little bit so that bunker units get seriously damaged when spies destroy the bunker improvement beneath them. That offers an extra tactic to deal with them. But the cost for destroying the improvement should still be higher than the cost of building a bunker.

I could try to find and upload a save, but I'm not sure if it is still useful for you, because it would be from my old game (last compatible patch for it was h) )

IIRC you can see the native habitable plots when hovering over the Flowering Counter.
 
Second consideration: in theory the downside of native life's powerful direct attack is that you need to get right next to the enemy for it to be useful. If an enemy base is defended by a Bunker, your stack may have been severely weakened by the time it gets next to the base. So my first priority would be to get the AI to build more ranged strike units.
Problem is rather that native life can be fast, especially on sea (IoDs have 3 moves, sea lurks 4 - and fungus can make them way faster). That makes it very, very hard to soften them up - they can basically come out of nowhere, wreck your stack and sometimes even escape again - if they get back into fungus, you can't really touch them due to the defence bonus.

Cheers, LT.
 
Yessssssssssssss ! Thanks for the patch Maniac, it's working well. I can finish a game.
I just had one problem, not dramatic: with the Scientist I couldn't take Fundamentalist as Politics.
Now I'm playing with the Mogul, maybe the most powerful group.

* Oh, it's fun! Drilling boreholes, watching your farms grow, building condensers... I almost have the feeling that the Hybrid gameplay is a lot more passive development-wise (esp. as communes come so late), but then, that probably fits their theme.
* The inability to build magtubes on rocky terrain is annoying - not because I want the mobility there, but because it screws up the "Route-To" command, makes magtube building very micromanagement-intensive, I really don't like that.
* Morgan is a faction I really start to like now. In SMAC, I found them a bit "meh", but having the unique wonders (Morgan Entertainment, Trade Centre etc.) is a nice touch and unit hurrying is very powerful (...and perhaps the button hovertext could be changed from "hurry" to "hire"? Would make the mercenary theme clearer, I think... or will they get a "Mercenary" promo or something in the future?)

I completely agree with Lord Tirian.
 
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