Feel Like Helping Me Destroy the World?

[Senethro]

Wow, that would be a gloomy northern bronze city.

Why not go for the south-western one? It would be a very slow start, so probably a monument with 1 citizen working a plains/forest/hill as first build would be best. It would then expand to get Wine/Cows/Copper and several flatlands, so it wouldn't be a complete loss.

But it would leave a gap between your cities, so if City 4 is an economy city that follows the river/grasslands to your north, then City 5 can go 3S/1W of your capital and be a production city. It'll pick up the reagents, incense, but will overlap with your capital. Theres no point moving it further south to avoid overlap as it'll only bring 3 peaks into the fat cross, so you might as well take the overlap and lowered Maintenance from Distance costs as well.

 

[Emptiness]

Compared to a city by the southwest copper, a city by the northern copper will add less maintenance costs, be easier to defend, and require fewer worker-turns to connect to the trade network. The road to the southwest site would also need to be defended from pillage by barbarians, which would tie up more units than defending the much shorter route to the northern site. Furthermore, a city in the northern site will begin developing sooner because the settler will take less time to get there, and will develop faster because a high-production copper mine will be in its initial one-tile work zone. (The southwest site could be moved adjacent to the copper to equalize that factor, but that would take another turn to reach and add another road tile that needs to be built and protected.)

 

[Senethro]

But all those limitations won't matter if we have a settler soon and Bronze Working takes a long time to research. What are the numbers there? Barbarian defense shouldn't ever be a problem as you should always overbuild on warriors anyway. If Settler movement is really such a problem then the road could even be pre-built as the settler is built, getting a headstart on traderoute and cutting down time on movement turns.

 

[AsmodeusUltima]

Ended up being too busy to play a round today, might do it tonight if I can not sleep, or maybe tomorrow. Anyhow I had a couple questions: everybody is saying I should build tons of warriors to fogbust and defend from barbs. Once I get BW should I start building Pyre Zombies instead or keep up with warriors for a while? And I have heard a couple calls for Pacifism once an elder council is built in order to rush out my first great sage. Will that ruin my economy if I have a metric ton of warriors everywhere? Should I make the switch just until the first great sage pops, then switch back? Oh, also, I have never been good at city specialization. I realize it is a bit early yet for most of that, but what should my workers be building? Should I put a farm everywhere there is fresh water and cottage anywhere there is not? Or is there some other strategy to the farm/cottage ratio? Oh, and I will have to get Knowledge of the Ether sometime soon, and that means the Catacomb Libralis. Should I build that in the capitol or wait and put it in whatever ends up being the AV holy city since that is where I want to focus my sages and research?

 

[Jet]

It's nice and you can get it at this level, but it's a lot of hammers (what, 2 settlers worth?), and with the Arcane bonus you can build mage guilds very quickly after a city has grown while building its basic non-military buildings. And I think you should use a single city with Prophecy+HE to build nothing but adepts. Not that you can't build more adepts in other cities, but with finite hammers you might want your other cities focused more on Pyre Zombies and buildings. But anyway, just put it in the capital if you want it. I don't think it's worth delaying the build to optimize where its modest wonder benefits go.

 

[cabbagemeister]

Ended up being too busy to play a round today, might do it tonight if I can not sleep, or maybe tomorrow. Anyhow I had a couple questions: everybody is saying I should build tons of warriors to fogbust and defend from barbs. Once I get BW should I start building Pyre Zombies instead or keep up with warriors for a while?

You should start building PZs immediately. Warriors are more hammer-efficient for dealing with barbs, but eventually you're gonna want to take out your neighbors, and having more PZs sooner lets you make that decision earlier.

 

[Emptiness]

Yes, it's more important to get the CL built than it is to worry about synergy with the AV holy city. The main benefit is the saved in developing cities by not having to build a Mage Guild (having to build a Planar Gate is expensive enough).

Switching to Pacificism and then out of it just to power out one Great Sage seems like a waste to me, especially if you're going to go to war with the Calabim. Pyre Zombies are more expensive than Warriors and your cities are still developing; adding a -20% military unit production penalty on top of that will hurt, especially since Apprenticeship comes with its own production penalty. At least Apprenticeship pays for its penalty by making your units better. The extra turns you will lose to Anarchy makes it an even worse idea. Just start working on the Great Sage and let it come when it comes.

Once you get Pyre Zombies you should stop building Warriors. Pyre Zombies are most effective in large numbers.

As for city specialization, that doesn't need to happen too much yet. Once AV is founded that will become your research city. After that you can look at your other cities and select the best financial city. Other cities then focus on production, supplemented with commerce and specialists as circumstances permit.

 

[Onionsoilder]

There is a very large chance of the second city you build becomming your holycity. That is why I suggested you settle by the incense first, because you will want all your science(or gold, depending on what religion you are) buildings in that city, i.e., academies, libraries, and wonders like the Crown of Arkhiem and the Great Library. Since it has so many hammers there, you may try and build the Catacomb Libralus in that city as well, though I normally build it in my bets production city because it is so expensive.

 

[Cupric Leane]

My strategy is a little different. I would put my third city to the SE on the hill 2N of the gold. This will do (at least) two things for you. It will remove a very strong growth spot from your Calabim neighbor, making him ultimately easier for you to conquer when the time comes gives you control of a powerhouse research city (either aristograrian farms OR edu-towns), also with the gold booster to happiness and commerce. Your new border with Decius will also allow you to focus your early defenses to the perimeter areas.

As for the extra defense forces needed, don't worry about it. This is Noble level so you will have plenty of chances and time to make up for any losses/mistakes you make. Plus, you really want barbarian invaders at this point anyway to buff up your primary warriors. Just eat them up for xp.

Your fourth and fifth cities should go to the other two spots everyone else is talking about. If you delay the SE city, you may lose it to Decius. You may also be able to neutralize him as an enemy by building up a strong BFF with him. This will let you focus your energies elsewhere for growth and destruction.

 

[cabbagemeister]

My strategy is a little different. I would put my third city to the SE on the hill 2N of the gold. This will do (at least) two things for you. It will remove a very strong growth spot from your Calabim neighbor, making him ultimately easier for you to conquer when the time comes gives you control of a powerhouse research city (either aristograrian farms OR edu-towns), also with the gold booster to happiness and commerce. Your new border with Decius will also allow you to focus your early defenses to the perimeter areas.

This is a good idea if you're planning on going to war later rather than sooner. The SE city is absolutely one you want (what amazing commerce potential you'd have there!), but settling there now would a) delay getting bronze weapons, and b) give you a commerce-focused, rather than balanced or production-focused, third city. The best strategy overall is probably to rush Decius with ~6-8 bronze-equipped PZs ASAP, but if you're hesitant about your ability to pull this off, settling that SE city will give you the economic boost you'll want to out-tech Decius and conquer him more easily later on.

 

[Demus]

There is a very large chance of the second city you build becomming your holycity.

your holy city will be your highest population non-capital city (unless other religions have spread to you first). This doesn't have to be your second city, as i've found out the hard way often enough

 

[Emptiness]

It can be any city, including a smaller city or even (very rarely) your capitol. It is heavily weighted against the capitol, and weighted in favor of more population, but sometimes unusual things will happen.

 

[AsmodeusUltima]

Okay, finally got around to the next round. It went fairly well, I think, but my economy is seriously in need of a boost. Perhaps it is time to go to war...

My teching went Bronze Working, Education, Philosophy, Way of the Wicked, and I am now working on Knowledge of the Ether. If it looks like I am rushing for AV then, well, that is what I am doing. The reason is I met a new neighbor on turn 111:



I don't want her stealing it away from me! I also should start work on the Prophesy of Ragnarok. Any ideas where it should be?

I founded three new cities this round: Tongurstad by the copper and mushrooms, Graelingvig in the southeast by the gold, incense and marble, and Steinvik by the reagents and incense.

Other events that happened this round: Turn 115 more mushrooms popped up in Tongurstad's BFC! Yummy! Turn 121 RoK was founded by whoever the last civ is. Dwarves maybe? Turn 143 Tongurstad officially becomes the world's leading cultivator of mushrooms as it gets a third source! Maybe this city will be able to grow well after all! Turn 144 OO is founded. I think okay, that makes sense, don't have to worry about Keelyn snagging AV anymore, right? Wrong. It was founded by Decius. Okay. A little while later, did not notice when exactly, Arendel converted to OO as well. No more good civs around that I know of... Turn 151 the AC hits 10%. And finally turn 153 where I stopped this round two events: I pop my first Great Sage in the capitol and a random event gives me a pair of Mobility 1 assassins! I could have also chose a modest boost to my KoE research, or one other thing I do not remember, but I thought the assassins would help out the most since it will be a good long while before I get Poisons. Oh, I got that event because I am running Undercouncil. In fact my civics are currently God King, Nationhood, Slavery, Agrarianism, Undercouncil.

Here are pics as of turn 153:

North


East


South


West


And the Domestic Advisor


A few questions now. First off what to do with the Great Sage? Academy? Settle? Finish KoE and bulb AV so I can be sure to get the holy city? Wait til AV is founded to get the shrine? Give him a sword and send him to slay Acheron?

Just as important is what to do about the economy. I finally ran out of money, in large part from having more troops than I could support, and my science slider has dropped down to a lowly 40%. Ouch! My initial inclination is to go for CoL soon to build courthouses and switch to Aristocracy. I could also replace some farms with cottages, or declare war on Decius and try to pillage and capture cities for more gold. What do you all think?

Finally what should I do in the way of expansion? Should I even expand further at this point, with my economy as it is? If I should expand, should it be via settling or conquest? There is still a great deal of free land available, especially in the west. I think that may be where the Lanun were and now there be dragons, because I have seen no sign of anything but barbs coming from the west the entire game. And if I should settle, where? I see the Sepulcher to the south and I will definitely want to grab that (we loves our Death mana!) but that is for a little bit later.

Okay, please feel free to tell me all the mistakes I have been making and how to fix them!

 

[Senethro]

Steinvik was founded 1 tile too far south. Yes, you've avoided overlap with the capital, but all youv'e gained in return are 3 peak tiles at the south of its BFC. Building it closer would have gotten it 1 more Grasslands for a farm (even before overlap. I counted), would have given it turn advantage by letting it use Improvements in Galveholms BFC so it didn't have to wait for its own, and possibly been lower maintenance costs.

There are other, but city placement is a pet issue of mine. You settled the three new cities in the correct order of importance imo.

I'm going to bring up the next big problem facing the Sheaim - a tech income of 24 in Turn 153. How many Workers do you have? (1.5/city is a good number) How many cottages do you have? Are all your Incenses and Golds improved?

The problem is that you've been listening to too many people. Most players eventually come round to the importance of getting some kind of economy going soon, but that you can usually afford one little deviation while on the way to getting that economy. For some this deviation is Festivals, for others its Mysticism for God-King. Unfortunately, you've listened to everyone and done everyones favorite deviation and delayed getting your economy for so long that you've hurt yourself!

Not that this matters, its a Noble game and is more about communication of ideas than min-maxing optimisation. But it is an illustrative example of the dangers of Committee!

 

[Feyd Rautha]

Pyre Zombie rush Decius, take his cities, claim the religion that is your birthright, send the sage down there to found Stigmata of the Unborn.

As for your economy, a brief stint in City States and a cottage/farm (in prep for aristograrian) economy is highly recommended. With all those plantation resources though I'd think you'd be better off than you are.

 

[Emptiness]

Adding Cartography to your research path so you can temporarily switch to City States before then later switching to Aristocracy doesn't make sense to me. I would suggest immediately researching Code of Laws, and then you should switch to Aristocracy and build Courthouses in all your cities. If you have any cites that don't have Markets then those should be built immediately (after a monument in the very new cities). After you are in Aristocracy you can return to your current research path and should find teching easier.

5 workers would be the minimum you should have, 7 or 8 would be better. If you don't have enough then build more. Working unimproved tiles is bad, especially with so many high-commerce-yield tile improvements available to build. Improving those tiles and connecting your trade network should be your workers first two priorities, considering the current state of your economy.

I wouldn't worry about building Prophecy of Ragnarok until after you conquer the Calabim. If someone else does manage to beat you to it then you can always just go take it from them. It was nice of Decius to found OO for you, that water mana will come in handy for dealing with the deserts in your lands.

I would save your great sage for an Academy in the AV holy city. You should be working on a second one, for the AV wonder. I suggest building the wonder second since that will slow down AV spread initially. It is probably best to give yourself a little time to prepare before horsemen start appearing. And speaking of founding religion wonders, you need to fix your economy asap so that you can have gold on hand to deal with random events. If an opportunity for a free Great Prophet comes then you absolutely do not want to be unable to afford it. I recommend trying to keep 100+ gold on hand at all times.

and a random event gives me a pair of Mobility 1 assassins! I could have also chose a modest boost to my KoE research, or one other thing I do not remember, but I thought the assassins would help out the most since it will be a good long while before I get Poisons.

Pyre Zombies and Assassins...it was nice knowing you, Decius...

 

[cabbagemeister]

How many PZs do you have right now? If it's more than 6, you should start conquering immediately (or as soon as Galveholm finishes the next one). If your power ratio vs Decius is greater than 1.0 (as it was in the first screenshot), it should be a walkover. Just remember that suiciding PZs is the way to capture cities!

 

[Senethro]

Without knowing how good Noble WMLite Calabim AI is, what is a good army composition for Sheaim? Should it be all PZs, or PZs used as expendable fodder with Warriors actually killing the weakened defenders?

My experience with Wild Mana AI was that it doesn't seem to distinguish well between unit types and so you may get attacked by archers but find horsemen defending their cities while the civ is a melee specialist. Expect large numbers though.

So, it may be that its better to have warrior hordes smashing large numbers of weakened defenders, as the limiting factor on conquest may be how many units we can kill per turn than what the highest unit strength we have is.

 

[AsmodeusUltima]

Uh, yeah, I am pretty sure I could crush him:



Power Ratio is 2.0.

Did not realize that about the Steinvik placement. Whoops! And I suppose you are right, I was trying to do too much at once. I hope to learn from my mistakes for next time!

Improvements are as follows:

Galveholm: pasture on pig and cow, plantation on both cotton, winery on wine, five grassland hills with mines (two shared), two farmed grasslands, one farmed plains, and one cottaged grasslands (shared).

Grottiburg: winery on wine, hamlet on ivory, two mined plains hills, and two farmed flood plains.

Tongurstad: mine on copper, three farmed grasslands, mined grassland hills (shared), and mushrooms on a grasslands hill and on two forested plains hills.

Graelingvig: two farms on flood plains, one mined desert hill

Steinvik: plantation on reagents and incense, farmed grassland, mined grassland hill (shared), and cottaged grassland (shared).

More cottages? Or more farms and rush Aristocracy?

And the general consensus seems to be that it is time to shut the vamps down regardless...

 

[Senethro]

If you've got a lot of grassland beside rivers, and I think you have and even more with those new purple blobs on the map, it should be Aristocracy.

I vote for killing Decius, but don't take so many of his cities that your economy crashes before reaching Code of Laws.